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William Blake Jr.

External


Since: Nov 05, 2005
Posts: 14



(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:55 pm
Post subject: Fine Arts and the Modern World
Archived from groups: alt>philosophy, others (more info?)

Fine arts and philosophy have been slandered as being
luxuries of the elites.

This slander is frankly ridiculous, and it exerts a
degrading effect upon the civilization.

At this time in the world history, the world has by
far the greatest amount of material prosperity that it
has ever had. It also has by far the greatest population,
the greatest amount of information, the greatest amount
of knowledge, and the greatest amount of media and
political freedom in the history of humankind. It has
enough resources for - politically correct propaganda,
right-wing radio talk shows, supermarket tabloids, TV
evangelists, Jerry Springer, and all manner of
hideousness and inanity that we see on TV and the
radio and the news. So why not then have likewise an
abundance of world-class intellectual thought and
artistic accomplishment?


This question bears asking, for the sake primarily of the
greatness of the Civilization and the history of the World.
That a Renaissance Italy, with three million people and an
average household income of $1000 a year, would produce
Michelangelo, DaVinci, Botticelli, Rafael and a number of
other timeless masters, while the modern world has produced
no known artist of similar caliber since Salvador Dali, does
not say much for the modern world. Why, at a time when the
world's GDP, population, information, knowledge and media
reach far exceeds any ever created, are there not a thousand
Michelangelos, Emersons, Tsvetayeva's, Platos, Franklins,
Jeffersons, Li Pos, Rumis, Shakespeares and Elizabeth Barrett
Browning's? Why, at the time of the greatest accumulation of
knowledge and freedom of information and material resources
and politicalliberty in the history of the world, is there
not commensurate legacy and body of work - legacy and body
of work of literary, artistic, philosophical and intellectual
greatness?

The things that were once unthinkable luxuries even to the
kings and the queens, are now the daily aspect of the
existence of the people in the most run-of-the-mill Western
household. There are full-screen TVs and two-car garages in
most working households in America. These, by any historical
standard, are luxuries - luxuries that never previously
belonged even to Queen Elizabeth the First. So why, then,
are fine arts and philosophy - the flowering, the
consummation, the blossoming, the culmination, the legacy of
man's intellectual and artistic striving - the flowering and
the blossoming that, compared to these things, take far less
material resources to create and leave per unit of resources
expended a far greater legacy and embodied value - not at a
nearly commensurate quality?

Are the moderns not smart enough? Are the moderns not talented
enough? Are the moderns not free or educated or materially and
politically empowered enough? Either of these explanations,
given historical state of humanity, is absurd. There is
something wrong with one thing and one thing only:

THE PRIORITIES OF THE MODERN WORLD.

Who indeed would see it as idle luxury to create fine art and
fine literature - all things that require minimum resource
expenditure but produce embodied greatness that contain
inspiration and excellence, enhance knowledge and emotional
wisdom, enrich experience of life, and give the country
something to look back upon proudly over centuries of future
existence - while not seeing as idle luxury the McDonalds's
and poison-spewing SUVs, taxpayer-paid subsidies to farm
corporations and giveaway of government money to pharmaceutical
companies,
the supermarket tabloids and TV evangelists and
right-wing uglies congesting the media channels and politically
correct fascists using the taxpayer money to play power games
against the helpless in social work, attack all beautiful
sensibilities in the academia, and rob life of its Richness and
Splendor (and humanity of its Genius) while using for that evil
purpose far greater amount of resources than would be required
to produce a thousand Sistine Chapels?


The problem is not with the West's political or economic system,
which after all in both cases provide viable means for
expression of people's values in the marketplace and in the
government. The problem is with the values that are expressed
through both systems. The problem is with the priorities and
the ideas guiding these priorities. The problem is with the
short-sightedness of the mindset that fails to look forward to
history and to compute into the quantification of economic
utility and political benefit the long-term greatness of the
civilization, which lives through its literary and artistic
accomplishments and bequeathes through them to future generation
the brilliance and inspiration that once lived in it. The problem
is with the failure to economically and politically quantify
this: Historical interest; long-term benefit of humanity; the
legitimate need for legacy; and the very true and significant
need for Splendor.

Splendor that:

Enriches experience of life;
Shows what is possible;
Inspires people toward Excellence with sight of Accomplishment;
Vitalizes the Passionate and the Inspired in Human Being, setting
it free to impart of its Riches and enrich the Lives of Others and
the entirety of the Human Experience;

And imparts through the intuitive channels the Sublime and the
Magnificent to the Living, Directing and Guiding them to
Passionate, Beautiful, Inspired Life.

Splendor that is the accomplishment of Humankind's Excellence -
source of its Passion and Inspiration - and inspiration for a
finely refined sense of Justice, and undying interest in the Good
Of The Existing And The Yet-To-Exist.

And that the World requires again to be made a Value, in order
that Greatness, Man and Civilization can Live Again -

Produce magnificent and inspired legacy of its existence -

And enrich the lives of the Existing, justify and give legacy to
the Existed, tap into man's Talents for Good of Humanity, and
inspire and give light to the Yet-To-Exist.

Ilya Shambat
http://ibshambat.blogspot.com

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Kite & Bitsy

External


Since: Dec 19, 2006
Posts: 2



(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:42 pm
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William Blake Jr. wrote:


We hear you, William!

Nice to see this group. We were lurking on alt.support.marriage and
someone said the word "soulmate" upset them. I can understand but it's
nice to see a group where maybe there can be some acceptance of the
concept.

Once you know it, you don't forget it.

Kite and Bitsy

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allendesigngallery

External


Since: Dec 20, 2006
Posts: 1



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:54 am
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William Blake Jr. wrote:
> Fine arts and philosophy have been slandered as being
> luxuries of the elites.
>
> This slander is frankly ridiculous, and it exerts a
> degrading effect upon the civilization.
>
We are all so rushed these days. Art is in fact the great equalizer. It
demands the rich and the poor, the young and old take pause (if only
for a moment). It creates the opportunity for all to have an subjective
opinion that is niether right nor wrong. Art speaks many languages and
has a private, sometimes moving, conversation with each person it meets.
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*Anarcissie*

External


Since: May 16, 2006
Posts: 104



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:50 am
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William Blake Jr. wrote:
> Fine arts and philosophy have been slandered as being
> luxuries of the elites.

Art hasn't. There is lots of great art for the masses.
You just don't happen to like it. But they do. And
they don't care what you think, fortunately for them.

Whether they need philosophy or not is another
matter. Philosophy has aptly been called the
disease for which it is the cure. Some of the masses
like it -- look at all the middle-brow adolescents who
love Ayn Rand. But most seem to do quite well
without it.

> This slander is frankly ridiculous, and it exerts a
> degrading effect upon the civilization.
>
> At this time in the world history, the world has by
> far the greatest amount of material prosperity that it
> has ever had. It also has by far the greatest population,
> the greatest amount of information, the greatest amount
> of knowledge, and the greatest amount of media and
> political freedom in the history of humankind. It has
> enough resources for - politically correct propaganda,
> right-wing radio talk shows, supermarket tabloids, TV
> evangelists, Jerry Springer, and all manner of
> hideousness and inanity that we see on TV and the
> radio and the news. So why not then have likewise an
> abundance of world-class intellectual thought and
> artistic accomplishment?
>
>
> This question bears asking, for the sake primarily of the
> greatness of the Civilization and the history of the World.
> That a Renaissance Italy, with three million people and an
> average household income of $1000 a year, would produce
> Michelangelo, DaVinci, Botticelli, Rafael and a number of
> other timeless masters, while the modern world has produced
> no known artist of similar caliber since Salvador Dali, does
> not say much for the modern world. Why, at a time when the
> world's GDP, population, information, knowledge and media
> reach far exceeds any ever created, are there not a thousand
> Michelangelos, Emersons, Tsvetayeva's, Platos, Franklins,
> Jeffersons, Li Pos, Rumis, Shakespeares and Elizabeth Barrett
> Browning's? Why, at the time of the greatest accumulation of
> knowledge and freedom of information and material resources
> and politicalliberty in the history of the world, is there
> not commensurate legacy and body of work - legacy and body
> of work of literary, artistic, philosophical and intellectual
> greatness?
>
> The things that were once unthinkable luxuries even to the
> kings and the queens, are now the daily aspect of the
> existence of the people in the most run-of-the-mill Western
> household. There are full-screen TVs and two-car garages in
> most working households in America. These, by any historical
> standard, are luxuries - luxuries that never previously
> belonged even to Queen Elizabeth the First. So why, then,
> are fine arts and philosophy - the flowering, the
> consummation, the blossoming, the culmination, the legacy of
> man's intellectual and artistic striving - the flowering and
> the blossoming that, compared to these things, take far less
> material resources to create and leave per unit of resources
> expended a far greater legacy and embodied value - not at a
> nearly commensurate quality?
>
> Are the moderns not smart enough? Are the moderns not talented
> enough? Are the moderns not free or educated or materially and
> politically empowered enough? Either of these explanations,
> given historical state of humanity, is absurd. There is
> something wrong with one thing and one thing only:
>
> THE PRIORITIES OF THE MODERN WORLD.
>
> Who indeed would see it as idle luxury to create fine art and
> fine literature - all things that require minimum resource
> expenditure but produce embodied greatness that contain
> inspiration and excellence, enhance knowledge and emotional
> wisdom, enrich experience of life, and give the country
> something to look back upon proudly over centuries of future
> existence - while not seeing as idle luxury the McDonalds's
> and poison-spewing SUVs, taxpayer-paid subsidies to farm
> corporations and giveaway of government money to pharmaceutical
> companies,
> the supermarket tabloids and TV evangelists and
> right-wing uglies congesting the media channels and politically
> correct fascists using the taxpayer money to play power games
> against the helpless in social work, attack all beautiful
> sensibilities in the academia, and rob life of its Richness and
> Splendor (and humanity of its Genius) while using for that evil
> purpose far greater amount of resources than would be required
> to produce a thousand Sistine Chapels?
>
>
> The problem is not with the West's political or economic system,
> which after all in both cases provide viable means for
> expression of people's values in the marketplace and in the
> government. The problem is with the values that are expressed
> through both systems. The problem is with the priorities and
> the ideas guiding these priorities. The problem is with the
> short-sightedness of the mindset that fails to look forward to
> history and to compute into the quantification of economic
> utility and political benefit the long-term greatness of the
> civilization, which lives through its literary and artistic
> accomplishments and bequeathes through them to future generation
> the brilliance and inspiration that once lived in it. The problem
> is with the failure to economically and politically quantify
> this: Historical interest; long-term benefit of humanity; the
> legitimate need for legacy; and the very true and significant
> need for Splendor.
>
> Splendor that:
>
> Enriches experience of life;
> Shows what is possible;
> Inspires people toward Excellence with sight of Accomplishment;
> Vitalizes the Passionate and the Inspired in Human Being, setting
> it free to impart of its Riches and enrich the Lives of Others and
> the entirety of the Human Experience;
>
> And imparts through the intuitive channels the Sublime and the
> Magnificent to the Living, Directing and Guiding them to
> Passionate, Beautiful, Inspired Life.
>
> Splendor that is the accomplishment of Humankind's Excellence -
> source of its Passion and Inspiration - and inspiration for a
> finely refined sense of Justice, and undying interest in the Good
> Of The Existing And The Yet-To-Exist.
>
> And that the World requires again to be made a Value, in order
> that Greatness, Man and Civilization can Live Again -
>
> Produce magnificent and inspired legacy of its existence -
>
> And enrich the lives of the Existing, justify and give legacy to
> the Existed, tap into man's Talents for Good of Humanity, and
> inspire and give light to the Yet-To-Exist.
>
> Ilya Shambat
> http://ibshambat.blogspot.com
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*Anarcissie*

External


Since: May 16, 2006
Posts: 104



(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:50 pm
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smw wrote:
> *Anarcissie* wrote:
> ...
> > Whether they need philosophy or not is another
> > matter. Philosophy has aptly been called the
> > disease for which it is the cure. Some of the masses
> > like it -- look at all the middle-brow adolescents who
> > love Ayn Rand. But most seem to do quite well
> > without it.
>
> Do you really think the majority is doing "quite well"? Seems to me the
> US is in sharp decline on pretty much any measure you care to use, with
> thought deprivation being one and perhaps not the least important one.

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every
purpose under heaven. If the time has come for the United
States to decline, do you think philosophy of the sort which
is likely to be distributed to the masses will save it? What
philosophy would that be?
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smwei

External


Since: Apr 02, 2004
Posts: 389



(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:29 pm
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*Anarcissie* wrote:

....
>
> Whether they need philosophy or not is another
> matter. Philosophy has aptly been called the
> disease for which it is the cure. Some of the masses
> like it -- look at all the middle-brow adolescents who
> love Ayn Rand. But most seem to do quite well
> without it.

Do you really think the majority is doing "quite well"? Seems to me the
US is in sharp decline on pretty much any measure you care to use, with
thought deprivation being one and perhaps not the least important one.
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*Anarcissie*

External


Since: May 16, 2006
Posts: 104



(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:49 pm
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michael wrote:
> smw wrote:
> > *Anarcissie* wrote:
> >> smw wrote:
> >>> *Anarcissie* wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>>> Whether they need philosophy or not is another
> >>>> matter. Philosophy has aptly been called the
> >>>> disease for which it is the cure. Some of the masses
> >>>> like it -- look at all the middle-brow adolescents who
> >>>> love Ayn Rand. But most seem to do quite well
> >>>> without it.
> >>>
> >>> Do you really think the majority is doing "quite well"? Seems to me the
> >>> US is in sharp decline on pretty much any measure you care to use, with
> >>> thought deprivation being one and perhaps not the least important one.
> >>
> >> To every thing there is a season, and a time to every
> >> purpose under heaven. If the time has come for the United
> >> States to decline, do you think philosophy of the sort which
> >> is likely to be distributed to the masses will save it? What
> >> philosophy would that be?
> >
> > How about the kind that keeps countries from invading places like Iraq?
> > Political theory is philosophy, too, after all.
>
> yeah... you could begin by putting copies of ObBook: The Concept of the
> Political in top drawers in motels all over the US...

No, really, I would like to know what philosophy, made
available to the masses and accessible by them, would
have stopped the war in Iraq. The founder of their
religion, in whom so many of them ardently claim to
believe, told them to put away their swords, because
those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.
But it was to no avail, as usual. If plain speech
attributed to God won't do it, what on earth will?
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Kite & Bitsy

External


Since: Dec 19, 2006
Posts: 2



(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:04 pm
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*Anarcissie* wrote:
> michael wrote:
> > smw wrote:
> > > *Anarcissie* wrote:
> > >> smw wrote:
> > >>> *Anarcissie* wrote:
> > >>> ...
> > >>>> Whether they need philosophy or not is another
> > >>>> matter. Philosophy has aptly been called the
> > >>>> disease for which it is the cure. Some of the masses
> > >>>> like it -- look at all the middle-brow adolescents who
> > >>>> love Ayn Rand. But most seem to do quite well
> > >>>> without it.
> > >>>
> > >>> Do you really think the majority is doing "quite well"? Seems to me the
> > >>> US is in sharp decline on pretty much any measure you care to use, with
> > >>> thought deprivation being one and perhaps not the least important one.
> > >>
> > >> To every thing there is a season, and a time to every
> > >> purpose under heaven. If the time has come for the United
> > >> States to decline, do you think philosophy of the sort which
> > >> is likely to be distributed to the masses will save it? What
> > >> philosophy would that be?
> > >
> > > How about the kind that keeps countries from invading places like Iraq?
> > > Political theory is philosophy, too, after all.
> >
> > yeah... you could begin by putting copies of ObBook: The Concept of the
> > Political in top drawers in motels all over the US...
>
> No, really, I would like to know what philosophy, made
> available to the masses and accessible by them, would
> have stopped the war in Iraq. The founder of their
> religion, in whom so many of them ardently claim to
> believe, told them to put away their swords, because
> those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.
> But it was to no avail, as usual. If plain speech
> attributed to God won't do it, what on earth will?

Knowledge and reason?

Problem is - how does it get distributed. I think you'd need a
Philosophy XBox game (and a slow year for other games).

Kite
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don_tuite1

External


Since: May 26, 2004
Posts: 131



(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:12 pm
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Archived from groups: alt>philosophy, others (more info?)

On 20 Dec 2006 19:49:24 -0800, "*Anarcissie*" <anarcissie.DeleteThis@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>No, really, I would like to know what philosophy, made
>available to the masses and accessible by them, would
>have stopped the war in Iraq. The founder of their
>religion, in whom so many of them ardently claim to
>believe, told them to put away their swords, because
>those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.
>But it was to no avail, as usual. If plain speech
>attributed to God won't do it, what on earth will?

the Jains or the Bahais may have an answer. But the UUs are more
common around these parts.

If Bahá’u’lláh, Aadinatha, and David Usher met in a steel cage match,
whom do you think would win?

Don
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smwei

External


Since: Apr 02, 2004
Posts: 389



(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:56 pm
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Archived from groups: alt>philosophy, others (more info?)

*Anarcissie* wrote:

> smw wrote:
>
>>*Anarcissie* wrote:
>>...
>>
>>>Whether they need philosophy or not is another
>>>matter. Philosophy has aptly been called the
>>>disease for which it is the cure. Some of the masses
>>>like it -- look at all the middle-brow adolescents who
>>>love Ayn Rand. But most seem to do quite well
>>>without it.
>>
>>Do you really think the majority is doing "quite well"? Seems to me the
>>US is in sharp decline on pretty much any measure you care to use, with
>>thought deprivation being one and perhaps not the least important one.
>
>
> To every thing there is a season, and a time to every
> purpose under heaven. If the time has come for the United
> States to decline, do you think philosophy of the sort which
> is likely to be distributed to the masses will save it? What
> philosophy would that be?

How about the kind that keeps countries from invading places like Iraq?
Political theory is philosophy, too, after all.
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michael

External


Since: Jul 04, 2006
Posts: 12



(Msg. 11) Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:18 am
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smw wrote:
>
>
> *Anarcissie* wrote:
>
>> smw wrote:
>>
>>> *Anarcissie* wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Whether they need philosophy or not is another
>>>> matter. Philosophy has aptly been called the
>>>> disease for which it is the cure. Some of the masses
>>>> like it -- look at all the middle-brow adolescents who
>>>> love Ayn Rand. But most seem to do quite well
>>>> without it.
>>>
>>> Do you really think the majority is doing "quite well"? Seems to me the
>>> US is in sharp decline on pretty much any measure you care to use, with
>>> thought deprivation being one and perhaps not the least important one.
>>
>>
>> To every thing there is a season, and a time to every
>> purpose under heaven. If the time has come for the United
>> States to decline, do you think philosophy of the sort which
>> is likely to be distributed to the masses will save it? What
>> philosophy would that be?
>
> How about the kind that keeps countries from invading places like Iraq?
> Political theory is philosophy, too, after all.

yeah... you could begin by putting copies of ObBook: The Concept of the
Political in top drawers in motels all over the US...

michael
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*Anarcissie*

External


Since: May 16, 2006
Posts: 104



(Msg. 12) Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:47 am
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smw wrote:
> *Anarcissie* wrote:
> > michael wrote:
> >>smw wrote:
> >>>*Anarcissie* wrote:
> >>>>smw wrote:
> >>>>>*Anarcissie* wrote:
> >>>>>...
> >>>>>>Whether they need philosophy or not is another
> >>>>>>matter. Philosophy has aptly been called the
> >>>>>>disease for which it is the cure. Some of the masses
> >>>>>>like it -- look at all the middle-brow adolescents who
> >>>>>>love Ayn Rand. But most seem to do quite well
> >>>>>>without it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Do you really think the majority is doing "quite well"? Seems to me the
> >>>>>US is in sharp decline on pretty much any measure you care to use, with
> >>>>>thought deprivation being one and perhaps not the least important one.
> >>>>
> >>>>To every thing there is a season, and a time to every
> >>>>purpose under heaven. If the time has come for the United
> >>>>States to decline, do you think philosophy of the sort which
> >>>>is likely to be distributed to the masses will save it? What
> >>>>philosophy would that be?
> >>>
> >>>How about the kind that keeps countries from invading places like Iraq?
> >>>Political theory is philosophy, too, after all.
> >>
> >>yeah... you could begin by putting copies of ObBook: The Concept of the
> >>Political in top drawers in motels all over the US...
>
> > No, really, I would like to know what philosophy, made
> > available to the masses and accessible by them, would
> > have stopped the war in Iraq.
>
> I'm not really thinking of any specific philosophy, even though I assume
> that Kant would do. And it's not a question of "distributing to the
> masses," but a question of distribution to the ruling elite.

If you look up at the top, you'll notice that "William Blake, Jr.",
possibly the last person on earth who should give himself that
name, said, "Fine arts and philosophy have been slandered as
being luxuries of the elites." So we're talking about the folk
here, not the elites, or at least I was.

The elites know all about Kant -- they're given Kant at Yale
as part of an immunization procedure. The usually successful
aim is to prevent any contrary thought from interfering with
their careers of greed and domination. You seem to think
that some idea or other is going to divert their attention from
the great aim and real business of life, which for them is to
screw other people (for a variety of meanings of "screw").
There is no such idea. Reason is the slave of the passions,
and we know what their passions are.

But that wasn't what our precious Billy was talking about,
insofar as he was talking about anything discernible.

> A keen
> interest in political philosophy is one of the many characteristics that
> distinguishes Clinton from Bush. Remember the Bush/Gore vote? People
> claiming to vote for the guy they'd like to have a bear with rather than
> for the guy who thinks too much and knows how to pronounce the names of
> foreign presidents?

I love the typo.

> There's no such thing as no theory, after all, a basic fact that our
> Michael here is consistently missing (the basic tenets of _The Concept
> of the Political_ being in action all over the place, something he'd
> know if he knew the book). There's only
> implicit/internalized/naturalized theory vs. active, self-conscious
> reflection. The latter is not only unimportant in US politics, evidence
> thereof is in fact harmful to candidates in most places and races.
> Clinton won because he's _also_ the guy you'd have a beer with.

Bear. Wouldn't you like to have a bear with Slick? It's
about the most degenerate enterprise I can think of. Where
was this idea in 1999, when the fin de siecle so obviously
needed something special?

Anyway, Americans properly distrust elites. The problem is,
they don't go far enough.

> > The founder of their
> > religion, in whom so many of them ardently claim to
> > believe, told them to put away their swords, because
> > those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.
> > But it was to no avail, as usual. If plain speech
> > attributed to God won't do it, what on earth will?
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Mackie

External


Since: Jul 07, 2006
Posts: 33



(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:40 am
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"smw" <smwei.RemoveThis@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:Tdxih.26903$Ga1.18815@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...

> Clinton won because he's _also_ the guy you'd have a beer with.

And a cigar. You would also want the cigar.
--
Mackie
http://www.mackiemesser.zoomshare.com/0.html
"'All this country needs is a good 5 cent cigar.'"
--Monica Lewinski, M.A., recent graduate in Social Psychology from
London School of Economics, quoting Wilson Vice President, Thomas R.
Marshall
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smwei

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Since: Apr 02, 2004
Posts: 389



(Msg. 14) Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Fine Arts and the Modern World [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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*Anarcissie* wrote:

> michael wrote:
>
>>smw wrote:
>>
>>>*Anarcissie* wrote:
>>>
>>>>smw wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>*Anarcissie* wrote:
>>>>>...
>>>>>
>>>>>>Whether they need philosophy or not is another
>>>>>>matter. Philosophy has aptly been called the
>>>>>>disease for which it is the cure. Some of the masses
>>>>>>like it -- look at all the middle-brow adolescents who
>>>>>>love Ayn Rand. But most seem to do quite well
>>>>>>without it.
>>>>>
>>>>>Do you really think the majority is doing "quite well"? Seems to me the
>>>>>US is in sharp decline on pretty much any measure you care to use, with
>>>>>thought deprivation being one and perhaps not the least important one.
>>>>
>>>>To every thing there is a season, and a time to every
>>>>purpose under heaven. If the time has come for the United
>>>>States to decline, do you think philosophy of the sort which
>>>>is likely to be distributed to the masses will save it? What
>>>>philosophy would that be?
>>>
>>>How about the kind that keeps countries from invading places like Iraq?
>>>Political theory is philosophy, too, after all.
>>
>>yeah... you could begin by putting copies of ObBook: The Concept of the
>>Political in top drawers in motels all over the US...


> No, really, I would like to know what philosophy, made
> available to the masses and accessible by them, would
> have stopped the war in Iraq.

I'm not really thinking of any specific philosophy, even though I assume
that Kant would do. And it's not a question of "distributing to the
masses," but a question of distribution to the ruling elite. A keen
interest in political philosophy is one of the many characteristics that
distinguishes Clinton from Bush. Remember the Bush/Gore vote? People
claiming to vote for the guy they'd like to have a bear with rather than
for the guy who thinks too much and knows how to pronounce the names of
foreign presidents?

There's no such thing as no theory, after all, a basic fact that our
Michael here is consistently missing (the basic tenets of _The Concept
of the Political_ being in action all over the place, something he'd
know if he knew the book). There's only
implicit/internalized/naturalized theory vs. active, self-conscious
reflection. The latter is not only unimportant in US politics, evidence
thereof is in fact harmful to candidates in most places and races.
Clinton won because he's _also_ the guy you'd have a beer with.



The founder of their
> religion, in whom so many of them ardently claim to
> believe, told them to put away their swords, because
> those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.
> But it was to no avail, as usual. If plain speech
> attributed to God won't do it, what on earth will?
>
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smwei

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Since: Apr 02, 2004
Posts: 389



(Msg. 15) Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Fine Arts and the Modern World [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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*Anarcissie* wrote:

> smw wrote:
>
>>*Anarcissie* wrote:
>>
>>>michael wrote:
>>>
>>>>smw wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>*Anarcissie* wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>smw wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>*Anarcissie* wrote:
>>>>>>>...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Whether they need philosophy or not is another
>>>>>>>>matter. Philosophy has aptly been called the
>>>>>>>>disease for which it is the cure. Some of the masses
>>>>>>>>like it -- look at all the middle-brow adolescents who
>>>>>>>>love Ayn Rand. But most seem to do quite well
>>>>>>>>without it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Do you really think the majority is doing "quite well"? Seems to me the
>>>>>>>US is in sharp decline on pretty much any measure you care to use, with
>>>>>>>thought deprivation being one and perhaps not the least important one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>To every thing there is a season, and a time to every
>>>>>>purpose under heaven. If the time has come for the United
>>>>>>States to decline, do you think philosophy of the sort which
>>>>>>is likely to be distributed to the masses will save it? What
>>>>>>philosophy would that be?
>>>>>
>>>>>How about the kind that keeps countries from invading places like Iraq?
>>>>>Political theory is philosophy, too, after all.
>>>>
>>>>yeah... you could begin by putting copies of ObBook: The Concept of the
>>>>Political in top drawers in motels all over the US...
>>
>>>No, really, I would like to know what philosophy, made
>>>available to the masses and accessible by them, would
>>>have stopped the war in Iraq.
>>
>>I'm not really thinking of any specific philosophy, even though I assume
>>that Kant would do. And it's not a question of "distributing to the
>>masses," but a question of distribution to the ruling elite.
>
>
> If you look up at the top, you'll notice that "William Blake, Jr.",
> possibly the last person on earth who should give himself that
> name, said, "Fine arts and philosophy have been slandered as
> being luxuries of the elites." So we're talking about the folk
> here, not the elites, or at least I was.

Well, I'm reacting to the slander part of it all. Of course, it all
depends on how you define the masses -- are college-going kids the
masses or the elite, in your view?
>
> The elites know all about Kant -- they're given Kant at Yale
> as part of an immunization procedure.

You gotta be kidding me.

> The usually successful
> aim is to prevent any contrary thought from interfering with
> their careers of greed and domination. You seem to think
> that some idea or other is going to divert their attention from
> the great aim and real business of life, which for them is to
> screw other people (for a variety of meanings of "screw").
> There is no such idea. Reason is the slave of the passions,
> and we know what their passions are.

Yeah yeah and all that. That's why there are absolutely no differences
between countries and their actions, I assume. Why some presidents get
elected for going to war and others elected for not going to war.
Incidentally, I think you got the "greed and domination" thing all wrong
-- no doubt it's a powerful motivator for enough of them, but it's the
true believers that are the scary ones. And there's nothing like
philosophy to trample belief of that sort.
....>
>
>> A keen
>>interest in political philosophy is one of the many characteristics that
>>distinguishes Clinton from Bush. Remember the Bush/Gore vote? People
>>claiming to vote for the guy they'd like to have a bear with rather than
>>for the guy who thinks too much and knows how to pronounce the names of
>>foreign presidents?
>
>
> I love the typo.
>
>
>> There's no such thing as no theory, after all, a basic fact that our
>>Michael here is consistently missing (the basic tenets of _The Concept
>>of the Political_ being in action all over the place, something he'd
>>know if he knew the book). There's only
>>implicit/internalized/naturalized theory vs. active, self-conscious
>>reflection. The latter is not only unimportant in US politics, evidence
>>thereof is in fact harmful to candidates in most places and races.
>>Clinton won because he's _also_ the guy you'd have a beer with.
>
>
> Bear. Wouldn't you like to have a bear with Slick? It's
> about the most degenerate enterprise I can think of. Where
> was this idea in 1999, when the fin de siecle so obviously
> needed something special?
>
> Anyway, Americans properly distrust elites. The problem is,
> they don't go far enough.

On the contrary, they have the wrong idea of what an elite would be. As
evidenced by your elected rulers, the guys who'd run used car lots
anywhere else in the civilized world.
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