Did Frodo know Bilbo was at Rivendell?

pawn, loathesome, credible <pawn RemoveThis @porterhouse.com> wrote:
 > pawn, loathesome, credible wrote:

  >> correspondence between the two? Or could the phrase "latest letter"
  >> describe an isolated letter up to 29 years earlier? If not, could it be

 > Uhhh...make that 17.

Isn't the phrase "last letter"? I always assumed that the letter in question
was the one Bilbo left behind for Frodo when he went away---that is, the letter
that Bilbo left along with the Ring itself. I don't think Bilbo originally had any
definite plans for settling at Rivendell, and I am aware of no evidence for any
correspondence between them. So in short, I think Frodo did not know Bilbo was
at Rivendell.

Kevin<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"pawn, loathesome, credible" <pawn.RemoveThis@porterhouse.com> wrote in message
news:gr5drc.uvi.ln@HSE-MTL-ppp64919.qc.sympatico.ca...
 > pawn, loathesome, credible wrote:
 >
  > > correspondence between the two? Or could the phrase "latest letter"
  > > describe an isolated letter up to 29 years earlier? If not, could it be
 >
 > Uhhh...make that 17.

IMHO, which has only that one phrase, admittedly not conclusive, to
reccommend it, is that they did have a correspondence.
*But* I don't think it would have been very regular--Bilbo probably took
care *not* to disclose his whereabouts, not wanting Frodo to abandon Bag End
and follow him. I would guess that Gandalf and perhaps the occasional
travelling Dwarf would bring Frodo a letter from time to time, and take one
in return. As the last time Gandalf visited was nine years before the Ring
was revealed, that could have been the occasion of the "last letter". ( To
me that phrase just smacks of ongoing letters. I think "final letter" would
have been used if talking about the one left after the Party.)
But, then again, it could just be wishful thinking on my part.
Barbara<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Kevin" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
 >pawn, loathesome, credible <pawn.TakeThisOut@porterhouse.com> wrote:
  >> pawn, loathesome, credible wrote:
 >
   >>> correspondence between the two? Or could the phrase "latest letter"
   >>> describe an isolated letter up to 29 years earlier? If not, could it be
 >
  >> Uhhh...make that 17.
 >
 > Isn't the phrase "last letter"? I always assumed that the letter in question
 >was the one Bilbo left behind for Frodo when he went away---that is, the letter
 >that Bilbo left along with the Ring itself. I don't think Bilbo originally had any
 >definite plans for settling at Rivendell, and I am aware of no evidence for any
 >correspondence between them. So in short, I think Frodo did not know Bilbo was
 >at Rivendell.

It is "last letter", as you say. In English that could mean "the last
ever" or "the last one in the series that I've received so far", but
I tend to agree with you that it has a sense of finality. If Frodo
and Bilbo had been corresponding I think there would have been some
mention.

I think Frodo did _not_ know Bilbo was in Rivendell. In the chapter
"Many Meetings" (II 1), at the end of his conversation with Gandalf
in Rivendell, we read:

"'Dear Bilbo!' said Frodo sleepily. 'I wonder where he is. I wish he
was here and could hear all about it." And then later when they do
meet, Frodo seems surprised to find Bilbo there.

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 >> Stay informed about: Did Frodo know Bilbo was at Rivendell? 

pawn, loathesome, credible <pawn RemoveThis @porterhouse.com> wrote:
 > All apologies if it's been discussed to death aside, but it occurred
 > to me that Frodo mentions in The Shadow of the Past that Bilbo warned
 > him about the whimsical geometric properties of the Ring in his
 > "latest letter".

"'Yes, he warned me of that in his last letter,' said Frodo, 'so I have
always kept it on its chain.'" (The Shadow of the Past)

Frodo is responding to Gandalf's comments about how the Ring can change
size and slip off a finger. Frodo's comments about 'always' having kept
it on a chain, implies to me that this 'last letter' can be dated to the
time when Frodo first took possession of the Ring, and so is likely to
be the letter that was left with the Ring. There is not a lot of detail
about this, but we do read about what Bilbo leaves behind and takes with
him:

"...from a large strong-box took out a bundle wrapped in old cloths, and
a leather-bound manuscript; and also a large bulky envelope. The book
and bundle he stuffed into the top of a heavy bag that was standing
there, already nearly full. [This must be the writings that eventually
ended up in the Red Book of Westmarch] Into the envelope he slipped his
golden ring, and its fine chain, and then sealed it, and addressed it to
Frodo. At first he put it on the mantelpiece, but suddenly he removed it
and stuck it in his pocket."

[Later, Gandalf is there...]

"You have still got the ring in your pocket [...] And my will and all
the other documents too [...] Put it on the mantelpiece [...] Bilbo took
out the envelope [and dropped it] the wizard stooped and seized it and
set it in its place." (A Long-Expected Party)

I would guess the bulky letter contained the will and this 'last letter'
that Frodo mentions in 'The Shadow of The Past'.

Christopher

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Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Did Frodo know Bilbo was at Rivendell? 

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:17:23 -0600, "aelfwina" <aelfwina DeleteThis @cableone.net>
wrote:

 >
 >"pawn, loathesome, credible" <pawn DeleteThis @porterhouse.com> wrote in message
 >news:gr5drc.uvi.ln@HSE-MTL-ppp64919.qc.sympatico.ca...
  >> pawn, loathesome, credible wrote:
  >>
   >> > correspondence between the two? Or could the phrase "latest letter"
   >> > describe an isolated letter up to 29 years earlier? If not, could it be
  >>
  >> Uhhh...make that 17.
 >
 >IMHO, which has only that one phrase, admittedly not conclusive, to
 >reccommend it, is that they did have a correspondence.
 >*But* I don't think it would have been very regular--Bilbo probably took
 >care *not* to disclose his whereabouts, not wanting Frodo to abandon Bag End
 >and follow him. I would guess that Gandalf and perhaps the occasional
 >travelling Dwarf would bring Frodo a letter from time to time, and take one
 >in return. As the last time Gandalf visited was nine years before the Ring
 >was revealed, that could have been the occasion of the "last letter". ( To
 >me that phrase just smacks of ongoing letters. I think "final letter" would
 >have been used if talking about the one left after the Party.)

"Final letter" makes it sound (to me, obviously) like Bilbo's dead. I
wouldn't say "last letter" if I were really expecting another any
day/month now, but "latest letter". I'd say "final letter" only if it
were the last thing from his hand before, as I wrote, death.

The real question is how Tolkien and, through him, Frodo would use
such terms. Anyone sufficiently familiar with "Letters" to find a
reference to "your last letter" or "your latest letter" for
comparison?

R. Dan Henry
danhenry DeleteThis @inreach.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

(snip)

 > I would guess the bulky letter contained the will and this 'last letter'
 > that Frodo mentions in 'The Shadow of The Past'.

Well, I'd call that definitive. Question retracted.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Pawn wrote:

 >All apologies if it's been discussed to death aside, but it occurred to
 >me that Frodo mentions in The Shadow of the Past that Bilbo warned him
 >about the whimsical geometric properties of the Ring in his "latest
 >letter".

My copy says "his last letter". Just before Bilbo went away, he left a letter
for Frodo beside the clock on the mantelpiece. In the same envelope was a gold
ring.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Did Frodo know Bilbo was at Rivendell? 

"pawn, loathesome, credible" <pawn RemoveThis @porterhouse.com> wrote in message
news:ga4drc.sri.ln@HSE-MTL-ppp64919.qc.sympatico.ca...
 > All apologies if it's been discussed to death aside, but it occurred to
 > me that Frodo mentions in The Shadow of the Past that Bilbo warned him
 > about the whimsical geometric properties of the Ring in his "latest
 > letter".
 >
 > Since Bilbo has been gone for decades, can we assume their was a lot of
 > correspondence between the two? Or could the phrase "latest letter"
 > describe an isolated letter up to 29 years earlier? If not, could it be
 > possible that Frodo never once asked "Say Bilbo, where are you at these
 > days?" throughout their, possibly routine, written discourse?
 >
In Three is Company, as the hobbits are first leaving Bag End Frodo hurries
down the garden path, "following Bilbo, if he had known it." A few pages
later Frodo asks Gildor if he has seen Bilbo. I think Frodo had no idea
where Bilbo went.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Did Frodo know Bilbo was at Rivendell? 

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:09:40 -0500, "lightbulb"
<lightbulb DeleteThis @chartermi.net> wrote:

 >
 >"pawn, loathesome, credible" <pawn DeleteThis @porterhouse.com> wrote in message
 >news:ga4drc.sri.ln@HSE-MTL-ppp64919.qc.sympatico.ca...
  >> All apologies if it's been discussed to death aside, but it occurred to
  >> me that Frodo mentions in The Shadow of the Past that Bilbo warned him
  >> about the whimsical geometric properties of the Ring in his "latest
  >> letter".
  >>
  >> Since Bilbo has been gone for decades, can we assume their was a lot of
  >> correspondence between the two? Or could the phrase "latest letter"
  >> describe an isolated letter up to 29 years earlier? If not, could it be
  >> possible that Frodo never once asked "Say Bilbo, where are you at these
  >> days?" throughout their, possibly routine, written discourse?
  >>
 >In Three is Company, as the hobbits are first leaving Bag End Frodo hurries
 >down the garden path, "following Bilbo, if he had known it." A few pages
 >later Frodo asks Gildor if he has seen Bilbo. I think Frodo had no idea
 >where Bilbo went.
 >
Frodo had no idea that Bilbo had taken up residence in Rivendell. If
you read the chapters in FOTR about Rivendell, you'll see how
surprised Frodo was when he met Bilbo there. He had no idea, until
that moment, that he would see Bilbo in Rivendell.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Did Frodo know Bilbo was at Rivendell?