Followup to Martinez' reply to the TOLKIEN BOOK OF JOB QUE..

On 24 Apr 2004 00:40:57 -0700 I wrote:
> For the curious, my source on Tolkien's work on JOB (as opposed to JONAH)
> is a bit of research from Wayne Hammond and Douglas Anderson.
>
> _The Jerusalem Bible_ (London: Darton, Longman & Todd;
> Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1966). Tolkien served as an
> editor of this version in a capacity nowhere definitively
> described. According to Tolkien himself, in a letter to
> Charlotte and Denis Plimer of 8 February 1967, he was
> originally to have translated a large amount of text, but
> under pressue from other work, completed only Jonah ("one
> of the shortest books"), and otherwise "was consulted on
> one or two points of style, and criticized some contributions
> of others". According to Anthony Kenney . . . Tolkien was
> asked to translate Judges and Jonah, but in the end
> contributed only a revision of the latter. According to
> Carpenter . . . Tolkien's only contribution was the original
> draft of a translation of Jonah, which was extensively
> revised by others before publication. But it was reported
> in the Tolkien Society bulletin, _Amon Hen_, no. 26 (May 1977),
> that according to Darton, Longman, & Todd Tolkien also
> worked on the Book of Job, providing its initial draft and
> playing an important part in establishing its final text.
>
> Now, was the publisher "Darton, Longman, & Todd" making an error?
> I'm in no position to say they did. But there appears to have been
> no successful challenge to the claim since at least 1977 (I believe
> Hammond and Anderson would have found such a rebuttal).
>
> So, I'll stand on this citation until it is clearly refuted by the
> authors themselves.

Well, I have finally heard from Wayne Hammond, who was aware of this
discussion but was very busy. I will take the liberty of reposting
what he shared with me in another discussion forum. The remaining
portion of this message was written by Wayne Hammond. I accept his
conclusion that Tolkien "certainly did NOT" (emphasis is mine)
translate the Book of Job, as was reported in 1977 (and which I have
stated many times through the years). It should be noted that
Tolkien's comments on the Job translation were nonetheless solicited
before he left the project.


Since writing the _Bibliography_ I've seen the letters written to
Tolkien by the General Editor of _The Jerusalem Bible_, Alexander
Jones, preserved in the Tolkien Papers at the Bodleian. Jones first
wrote to Tolkien in January 1957, asking him to contribute to the
Bible project, on the strength of _The Lord of the Rings_ with which
Jones was very impressed. He hoped that Tolkien would translate
several books of the Old Testament, but held out Jonah (only three
pages in the finished printed Bible) if Tolkien was pressed for time.
Tolkien quickly sent a sample translation from Isaiah, and then a
draft translation of Jonah. After that he was indeed too pressed for
time to do much more. He did, however, discuss points of translation
with Jones, including what to do about archaisms (a potentially very
interesting subject, especially in relation to his comments on
archaisms in _The Lord of the Rings_; unfortunately, copies of
Tolkien's letters to Jones are not at the Bodleian), and Jones
solicited Tolkien's opinions on a first draft of most of the Book of
Job. Tolkien passed a final revision of Jonah only in 1961.

So, Tolkien did translate Jonah, which others revised (in the
_Bibliography_, p. 279, "revision of the latter [i.e. Jonah]" should
read "version of the latter"), and the evidence strongly indicates
that this was the only book that he translated in full. He certainly
did not translate Job -- one of the letters from Jones makes it clear
that this was done by someone else -- though he may have given his
advice about it (Jones's letters at the Bodleian end at the point at
which he sent Job to Tolkien), and this may have led to some confusion
on this point at Longmans.

Jones wrote in his foreword to _The Jerusalem Bible_: "In the case of
a few books the initial draft was made from the French and was then
compared word for word with the Hebrew or Aramaic by the General
Editor and amended where necessary to ensure complete conformity with
the ancient text. For the much greater part, the initial drafts were
made from the Hebrew or Greek and simultaneously compared with the
French when questions of variant reading or interpretation arose."
That the work was never simply a translation from
the French was made clear to Tolkien by Jones in an early letter:
reference by the General Editor to Hebrew and Greek was always a
given. Nor was Jones overly concerned to recruit translators who were
fluent in French: obviously they had to have some facility with it,
but he was concerned in the first instance with their command of
English. Thus he wanted Tolkien on board, and others such as Roy
Campbell (who died before completing his work).

Michael Martinez explained on 6/3/2004 :
> On 24 Apr 2004 00:40:57 -0700 I wrote:
>> For the curious, my source on Tolkien's work on JOB (as opposed to JONAH)
>> is a bit of research from Wayne Hammond and Douglas Anderson.
>>
>> _The Jerusalem Bible_ (London: Darton, Longman & Todd;
>> Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1966). Tolkien served as an
>> editor of this version in a capacity nowhere definitively
>> described. According to Tolkien himself, in a letter to
>> Charlotte and Denis Plimer of 8 February 1967, he was
>> originally to have translated a large amount of text, but
>> under pressue from other work, completed only Jonah ("one
>> of the shortest books"), and otherwise "was consulted on
>> one or two points of style, and criticized some contributions
>> of others". According to Anthony Kenney . . . Tolkien was
>> asked to translate Judges and Jonah, but in the end
>> contributed only a revision of the latter. According to
>> Carpenter . . . Tolkien's only contribution was the original
>> draft of a translation of Jonah, which was extensively
>> revised by others before publication. But it was reported
>> in the Tolkien Society bulletin, _Amon Hen_, no. 26 (May 1977),
>> that according to Darton, Longman, & Todd Tolkien also
>> worked on the Book of Job, providing its initial draft and
>> playing an important part in establishing its final text.
>>
>> Now, was the publisher "Darton, Longman, & Todd" making an error?
>> I'm in no position to say they did. But there appears to have been
>> no successful challenge to the claim since at least 1977 (I believe
>> Hammond and Anderson would have found such a rebuttal).
>>
>> So, I'll stand on this citation until it is clearly refuted by the
>> authors themselves.
>
> Well, I have finally heard from Wayne Hammond, who was aware of this
> discussion but was very busy. I will take the liberty of reposting
> what he shared with me in another discussion forum. The remaining
> portion of this message was written by Wayne Hammond. I accept his
> conclusion that Tolkien "certainly did NOT" (emphasis is mine)
> translate the Book of Job, as was reported in 1977 (and which I have
> stated many times through the years). It should be noted that
> Tolkien's comments on the Job translation were nonetheless solicited
> before he left the project.
>
>
> Since writing the _Bibliography_ I've seen the letters written to
> Tolkien by the General Editor of _The Jerusalem Bible_, Alexander
> Jones, preserved in the Tolkien Papers at the Bodleian. Jones first
> wrote to Tolkien in January 1957, asking him to contribute to the
> Bible project, on the strength of _The Lord of the Rings_ with which
> Jones was very impressed. He hoped that Tolkien would translate
> several books of the Old Testament, but held out Jonah (only three
> pages in the finished printed Bible) if Tolkien was pressed for time.
> Tolkien quickly sent a sample translation from Isaiah, and then a
> draft translation of Jonah. After that he was indeed too pressed for
> time to do much more. He did, however, discuss points of translation
> with Jones, including what to do about archaisms (a potentially very
> interesting subject, especially in relation to his comments on
> archaisms in _The Lord of the Rings_; unfortunately, copies of
> Tolkien's letters to Jones are not at the Bodleian), and Jones
> solicited Tolkien's opinions on a first draft of most of the Book of
> Job. Tolkien passed a final revision of Jonah only in 1961.
>
> So, Tolkien did translate Jonah, which others revised (in the
> _Bibliography_, p. 279, "revision of the latter [i.e. Jonah]" should
> read "version of the latter"), and the evidence strongly indicates
> that this was the only book that he translated in full. He certainly
> did not translate Job -- one of the letters from Jones makes it clear
> that this was done by someone else -- though he may have given his
> advice about it (Jones's letters at the Bodleian end at the point at
> which he sent Job to Tolkien), and this may have led to some confusion
> on this point at Longmans.
>
> Jones wrote in his foreword to _The Jerusalem Bible_: "In the case of
> a few books the initial draft was made from the French and was then
> compared word for word with the Hebrew or Aramaic by the General
> Editor and amended where necessary to ensure complete conformity with
> the ancient text. For the much greater part, the initial drafts were
> made from the Hebrew or Greek and simultaneously compared with the
> French when questions of variant reading or interpretation arose."
> That the work was never simply a translation from
> the French was made clear to Tolkien by Jones in an early letter:
> reference by the General Editor to Hebrew and Greek was always a
> given. Nor was Jones overly concerned to recruit translators who were
> fluent in French: obviously they had to have some facility with it,
> but he was concerned in the first instance with their command of
> English. Thus he wanted Tolkien on board, and others such as Roy
> Campbell (who died before completing his work).

Who did you get married to Muhamad? A nice brown skinned Sudanese camel
called humpy? Is her last name VIRGIN by any chance?


MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

--
mbouhahaha