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Foundation and Constantine

 
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nebusj

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Since: Jul 10, 2003
Posts: 38



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:20 am
Post subject: Foundation and Constantine
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov (more info?)

Has any sufficiently mad sort taken the time to go through the
Foundation Trilogy and list point-for-point how Asimov mirrored various
real-world events -- Bel Riose for Belisarius, of course; The Mule for
Genghis Khan, and so on -- or is that something else I should put on the
list to try doing if I ever have free time again?

    Joseph Nebus
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ejseiler

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Since: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 2



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:38 am
Post subject: Re: Foundation and Constantine [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <nebusj.1061273880.TakeThisOut@vcmr-86.server.rpi.edu>,
nebusj.TakeThisOut@rpi.edu (Joseph Nebus) wrote:

  > Has any sufficiently mad sort taken the time to go through the
 >Foundation Trilogy and list point-for-point how Asimov mirrored various
 >real-world events -- Bel Riose for Belisarius, of course; The Mule for
 >Genghis Khan, and so on -- or is that something else I should put on the
 >list to try doing if I ever have free time again?

I am sufficiently mad, but I haven't done it. I know that there are
parallels, but knowing Asimov, he would take advantage of his historical
knowledge to add some interesting angles, but wouldn't stick to it too
closely, in order to make the story his own. Still, an essay pointing
out the similarities and differences betwen Foundation characters and
historical personages could be interesting. Feel free to add it to your
list.

--
Ed Seiler "All knowledge is of itself of some value.
There is nothing so minute or inconsiderable,
that I would not rather know it than not."
-- Samuel Johnson<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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djohn37050

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Since: Jul 15, 2003
Posts: 14



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 4:29 am
Post subject: Re: Foundation and Constantine [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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The Mule was G. Khan? I did not know that. Belisarius I got.
Don Johnson
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nebusj

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Since: Jul 10, 2003
Posts: 38



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:15 am
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djohn37050 DeleteThis @aol.com (DJohn37050) writes:

 >The Mule was G. Khan? I did not know that. Belisarius I got.

  I'm not sure that Asimov *meant* for there to be parallels from
Genghis Khan to The Mule, but he was a smart and historically informed
author and probably they would have crept in whether he meant for them
to appear or not.

  Genghis Khan started from an obscure village in a powerless
empire, and trained himself and his generals in superior tactics and
particularly in intelligence-gathering. From that he conquered the Chin
Empire; from there, the Khwarazmian empire in Persia; to the Russians
and the Cumans; to Northern China and Korea; to the final bits of China;
and they were rolling through central Europe with nobody able to mount
an effective opposition when the death of Ogodai Khan (Genghis's son)
made the armies return to choose his successor. Europe was saved from
conquest by the death of the Khan, and not by any of their own efforts.

  The analogy isn't perfect, of course -- nobody would claim the
Mongols had any special mutant powers; just better strategy and tactics
to go to war -- but the parallels are pretty good.

    Joseph Nebus
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djohn37050

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Since: Jul 15, 2003
Posts: 14



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:57 pm
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I am sure Asimov did get some of his ideas from history and merged them with
his own.
Don Johnson
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tsbrueni

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Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 851



(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:48 am
Post subject: Re: Foundation and Constantine [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov, others (more info?)

Joseph Nebus wrote:

> djohn37050 RemoveThis @aol.com (DJohn37050) writes:
>
> >The Mule was G. Khan? I did not know that. Belisarius I got.
>
> I'm not sure that Asimov *meant* for there to be parallels from
> Genghis Khan to The Mule, but he was a smart and historically informed
> author and probably they would have crept in whether he meant for them
> to appear or not.
>
> Genghis Khan started from an obscure village in a powerless
> empire, and trained himself and his generals in superior tactics and
> particularly in intelligence-gathering. From that he conquered the Chin
> Empire; from there, the Khwarazmian empire in Persia; to the Russians
> and the Cumans; to Northern China and Korea; to the final bits of China;
> and they were rolling through central Europe with nobody able to mount
> an effective opposition when the death of Ogodai Khan (Genghis's son)
> made the armies return to choose his successor. Europe was saved from
> conquest by the death of the Khan, and not by any of their own efforts.

Why didn't Ogodai's successor return to Europe to complete the conquest?
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John Dierdorf

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Since: Aug 21, 2006
Posts: 1



(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:28 am
Post subject: Re: Foundation and Constantine [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 00:48:46 -0700, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni RemoveThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>
>
>Joseph Nebus wrote:
>
>> djohn37050 RemoveThis @aol.com (DJohn37050) writes:
>>
>> >The Mule was G. Khan? I did not know that. Belisarius I got.
>>
>> I'm not sure that Asimov *meant* for there to be parallels from
>> Genghis Khan to The Mule, but he was a smart and historically informed
>> author and probably they would have crept in whether he meant for them
>> to appear or not.
>>
>> Genghis Khan started from an obscure village in a powerless
>> empire, and trained himself and his generals in superior tactics and
>> particularly in intelligence-gathering. From that he conquered the Chin
>> Empire; from there, the Khwarazmian empire in Persia; to the Russians
>> and the Cumans; to Northern China and Korea; to the final bits of China;
>> and they were rolling through central Europe with nobody able to mount
>> an effective opposition when the death of Ogodai Khan (Genghis's son)
>> made the armies return to choose his successor. Europe was saved from
>> conquest by the death of the Khan, and not by any of their own efforts.
>
>Why didn't Ogodai's successor return to Europe to complete the conquest?

Basically because Europe was far away, poor, and just not worth the
effort compared to the riches of Persia, India, and China.

Anybody interested in this period should read Cecelia Holland's novel
"Until the Sun Falls", which tells about the invasion from the Mongol
point of view.
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