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Next: Gays In Asimov Books
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External
Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 856
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:27 pm
Post subject: Foundation's Edge
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov, others (more info?)
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In this book, Foundation Mayor Branno wants to take over the galaxy, but
first wants to make certain that the Second Foundation can't stop her.
She sends out Golan Trevieze to smoke out the 2nd Foundation. Golan's
mission leads to the 2 Foundations confronting each other near Gaia.
Second Foundation Speaker points out that although the 1st Foundation
can take over the galaxy, it won't be able to hold it without continuous
warfare. Why didn't Asimov have the Foundation undergo a Seldon Crisis
in which the Mayor tries to establish the Second Empire before the
Foundation is strong enough to govern the galaxy? I'm certain that
Seldon would have predicted that at some point, the First Foundation
would be tempted to establish the Second Empire prematurely. |
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External
Since: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 72
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Foundation's Edge [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In alt.books.isaac-asimov Tim Bruening <tsbrueni DeleteThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
: . . . I'm certain that Seldon would have predicted that at some point, the
: First Foundation would be tempted to establish the Second Empire prematurely.
Well, I personally believe that we cannot consider any of the later "I'm
writing a single future history" Foundation novels to be canonical, and not
only because he decided to incorporate his robot stories, _The End of
Eternity_, and _Nemesis_ into the timeline. Besides the inconsistencies
that that decision necessarily incorporated, plus his embarrassment at the
Trantorians' speaking Yiddish (thus his decision to call them the "Hamish"),
the entire premise of _Forward the Foundation_ is completely inconsistent
with the stated premise of the original stories.
Even so, I disagree with what you say. First of all, we have to remember
that Seldon said from the start that the new empire will be founded after
a 1000-year interregnum, so the people of the Foundation will know --
especially after the Mule's abortive attempt -- that any premature
attempt to establish a new empire will not succeed. In addition, not every
course of action is necessarily a Seldon Crisis. A Seldon Crisis occurs
by definition when only one course of action is open to the Foundation,
or as in the case of the confrontation with the Empire, only one outcome
is possible. In _Second Foundation_, when the First Speaker is explaining
his Ph. D. thesis to the student, he refers to the Second Empire as
already in the process of the formation, but some 200 - 300 years before
its official establishment. So it's possible that there will be a Seldon
Crisis of the sort that you mention, but several hundred years after the
events narrated by Asimov.
On a different but related subject, considering how unnecessarily prolix
all of his post-1980 novels were, I'm surprised how close he came (in
_Prelude to Foundation_ and _Forward the Foundation_) to explaining
what Seldon's great mathematical achievement was (or rather, will have been)
without actually managing to figure out an explanation.
-----
Richard Schultz schultr DeleteThis @mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
I'm sorry if I hurt you when I fell asleep last night,
But I was just exhausted from the act of being polite. |
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External
Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 856
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Foundation's Edge [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Richard Schultz wrote:
> In alt.books.isaac-asimov Tim Bruening <tsbrueni.DeleteThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> : . . . I'm certain that Seldon would have predicted that at some point, the
> : First Foundation would be tempted to establish the Second Empire prematurely.
>
> Well, I personally believe that we cannot consider any of the later "I'm
> writing a single future history" Foundation novels to be canonical, and not
> only because he decided to incorporate his robot stories, _The End of
> Eternity_, and _Nemesis_ into the timeline. Besides the inconsistencies
> that that decision necessarily incorporated, plus his embarrassment at the
> Trantorians' speaking Yiddish (thus his decision to call them the "Hamish"),
> the entire premise of _Forward the Foundation_ is completely inconsistent
> with the stated premise of the original stories.
How do you know that the Trantorians speak Yiddish? After all, their words were
translated into English in the book.
> Even so, I disagree with what you say. First of all, we have to remember
> that Seldon said from the start that the new empire will be founded after
> a 1000-year interregnum, so the people of the Foundation will know --
> especially after the Mule's abortive attempt -- that any premature
> attempt to establish a new empire will not succeed.
That knowledge did not stop Mayor Branno from trying to establish the Second Empire
right away! I figure that such a temptation would be natural for Foundation
leaders as the Foundation increases in strength, so would be predicted by Seldon. >> Stay informed about: Foundation's Edge |
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External
Since: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 72
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:48 am
Post subject: Re: Foundation's Edge [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In alt.books.isaac-asimov Tim Bruening <tsbrueni RemoveThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
:> Besides the inconsistencies
:> that that decision necessarily incorporated, plus his embarrassment at the
:> Trantorians' speaking Yiddish (thus his decision to call them the "Hamish"),
:> the entire premise of _Forward the Foundation_ is completely inconsistent
:> with the stated premise of the original stories.
:
: How do you know that the Trantorians speak Yiddish?
Anyone who knows even a little Yiddish would realize that that's what the
Trantorians spoke even if Asimov had not said so himself.
:> Even so, I disagree with what you say. First of all, we have to remember
:> that Seldon said from the start that the new empire will be founded after
:> a 1000-year interregnum, so the people of the Foundation will know --
:> especially after the Mule's abortive attempt -- that any premature
:> attempt to establish a new empire will not succeed.
:
: That knowledge did not stop Mayor Branno from trying to establish the
: Second Empire right away!
Which doesn't make it a Seldon Crisis, for reasons that I explained and
which you chose to delete.
-----
Richard Schultz schultr RemoveThis @mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad." >> Stay informed about: Foundation's Edge |
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External
Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 856
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Foundation's Edge [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Richard Schultz wrote:
> In alt.books.isaac-asimov Tim Bruening <tsbrueni.DeleteThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> : . . . I'm certain that Seldon would have predicted that at some point, the
> : First Foundation would be tempted to establish the Second Empire prematurely.
>
> Even so, I disagree with what you say. First of all, we have to remember
> that Seldon said from the start that the new empire will be founded after
> a 1000-year interregnum, so the people of the Foundation will know --
> especially after the Mule's abortive attempt -- that any premature
> attempt to establish a new empire will not succeed. In addition, not every
> course of action is necessarily a Seldon Crisis. A Seldon Crisis occurs
> by definition when only one course of action is open to the Foundation,
> or as in the case of the confrontation with the Empire, only one outcome
> is possible. In _Second Foundation_, when the First Speaker is explaining
> his Ph. D. thesis to the student, he refers to the Second Empire as
> already in the process of the formation, but some 200 - 300 years before
> its official establishment. So it's possible that there will be a Seldon
> Crisis of the sort that you mention, but several hundred years after the
> events narrated by Asimov.
I was saying that I was certain that Seldon would have predicted that at some
point, some Mayor would try to establish a @nd Empire prematurely, but I wasn't
saying that Seldon would have predicted that it would happen in FE 498 (The time
period of Foundation's Edge).
On the other hand:
The Seldon Plan was precisely on track at the end of the Seldon Crisis of 498
(which involved a dispute over the location of the Foundation's capitol!!!!!).
Mayor Branno and Hari Seldon were speaking in unison.
On the Gripping Hand (Read the sequal to "The Mote In God's Eye" by Larry Niven and
Jerry Pournelle): Mayor Branno was plotting to take over the galaxy, restrained
only by fear of the Second Foundation, yet the Second Foundation seems not to have
anticipated Branno's attempt to form the 2nd Empire. The Plan was perfectly on
track, but Branno's attempt to take over the galaxy was not included in the Plan,
else the 2nd Foundation would have anticipated that attempt.
The Fourth Hand: If not for the Mule partially revealing the 2nd Foundation, would
Mayor Branno (with no reason to fear the 2nd Foundation since she would not have
know of its abilities) have already tried to take over the galaxy?
5th Hand: If Branno moved to set up the 2nd Empire, at what point would the Prime
Radiant on Trantor have become filled with Deviation Blue? >> Stay informed about: Foundation's Edge |
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External
Since: Apr 19, 2006
Posts: 31
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:09 am
Post subject: Re: Foundation's Edge [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 20:01:14 -0700, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni.TakeThisOut@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>On the Gripping Hand (Read the sequal to "The Mote In God's Eye" by Larry Niven and
>Jerry Pournelle): Mayor Branno was plotting to take over the galaxy, restrained
>only by fear of the Second Foundation, yet the Second Foundation seems not to have
>anticipated Branno's attempt to form the 2nd Empire.
That's because without Branno having an ace in the hole to play
against the Second Foundation, she (it was she, wasn't it?) wouldn't
have dared try it. >> Stay informed about: Foundation's Edge |
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External
Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 856
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:09 am
Post subject: Re: Foundation's Edge [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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David Johnston wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 20:01:14 -0700, Tim Bruening
> <tsbrueni RemoveThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >On the Gripping Hand (Read the sequal to "The Mote In God's Eye" by Larry Niven and
> >Jerry Pournelle): Mayor Branno was plotting to take over the galaxy, restrained
> >only by fear of the Second Foundation, yet the Second Foundation seems not to have
> >anticipated Branno's attempt to form the 2nd Empire.
>
> That's because without Branno having an ace in the hole to play
> against the Second Foundation, she (it was she, wasn't it?) wouldn't
> have dared try it.
If the Mule had not forced the Second Foundation to partially blow its cover, I suspect
that Branno would not have considered the Second Foundation as a potential threat, so
might have made her try for Galactic power. >> Stay informed about: Foundation's Edge |
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External
Since: Apr 19, 2006
Posts: 31
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:50 am
Post subject: Re: Foundation's Edge [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 21:29:07 -0700, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni.DeleteThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
>
>David Johnston wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 20:01:14 -0700, Tim Bruening
>> <tsbrueni.DeleteThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>
>> >On the Gripping Hand (Read the sequal to "The Mote In God's Eye" by Larry Niven and
>> >Jerry Pournelle): Mayor Branno was plotting to take over the galaxy, restrained
>> >only by fear of the Second Foundation, yet the Second Foundation seems not to have
>> >anticipated Branno's attempt to form the 2nd Empire.
>>
>> That's because without Branno having an ace in the hole to play
>> against the Second Foundation, she (it was she, wasn't it?) wouldn't
>> have dared try it.
>
>If the Mule had not forced the Second Foundation to partially blow its cover, I suspect
>that Branno would not have considered the Second Foundation as a potential threat, so
>might have made her try for Galactic power.
Might. Might not. That was the kind of individual whim that the
Second Foundation existed to squelch when it was taken by someone with
some ability to influence the course of events. It isn't a Seldon
Crisis, though because it isn't the product of some kind of widespread
social trend. >> Stay informed about: Foundation's Edge |
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External
Since: Jul 15, 2006
Posts: 48
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Foundation's Edge [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Tim Bruening a écrit :
> Richard Schultz wrote:
>
> > In alt.books.isaac-asimov Tim Bruening <tsbrueni DeleteThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >
> > : . . . I'm certain that Seldon would have predicted that at some point, the
> > : First Foundation would be tempted to establish the Second Empire prematurely.
> >
> > Even so, I disagree with what you say. First of all, we have to remember
> > that Seldon said from the start that the new empire will be founded after
> > a 1000-year interregnum, so the people of the Foundation will know --
> > especially after the Mule's abortive attempt -- that any premature
> > attempt to establish a new empire will not succeed. In addition, not every
> > course of action is necessarily a Seldon Crisis. A Seldon Crisis occurs
> > by definition when only one course of action is open to the Foundation,
> > or as in the case of the confrontation with the Empire, only one outcome
> > is possible. In _Second Foundation_, when the First Speaker is explaining
> > his Ph. D. thesis to the student, he refers to the Second Empire as
> > already in the process of the formation, but some 200 - 300 years before
> > its official establishment. So it's possible that there will be a Seldon
> > Crisis of the sort that you mention, but several hundred years after the
> > events narrated by Asimov.
>
> I was saying that I was certain that Seldon would have predicted that at some
> point, some Mayor would try to establish a @nd Empire prematurely, but I wasn't
> saying that Seldon would have predicted that it would happen in FE 498 (The time
> period of Foundation's Edge).
>
> On the other hand:
>
> The Seldon Plan was precisely on track at the end of the Seldon Crisis of 498
> (which involved a dispute over the location of the Foundation's capitol!!!!!).
> Mayor Branno and Hari Seldon were speaking in unison.
>
> On the Gripping Hand (Read the sequal to "The Mote In God's Eye" by Larry Niven and
> Jerry Pournelle): Mayor Branno was plotting to take over the galaxy, restrained
> only by fear of the Second Foundation, yet the Second Foundation seems not to have
> anticipated Branno's attempt to form the 2nd Empire. The Plan was perfectly on
> track, but Branno's attempt to take over the galaxy was not included in the Plan,
> else the 2nd Foundation would have anticipated that attempt.
>
> The Fourth Hand: If not for the Mule partially revealing the 2nd Foundation, would
> Mayor Branno (with no reason to fear the 2nd Foundation since she would not have
> know of its abilities) have already tried to take over the galaxy?
>
> 5th Hand: If Branno moved to set up the 2nd Empire, at what point would the Prime
> Radiant on Trantor have become filled with Deviation Blue?
There is a cryptic reference in the Second Foundation to a point at
which different personalities would threaten to tear the Second Empire
apart, or something like that. This is in one of the First Speaker's
interviews with the Student.
It does indeed appear that Asimov modelled one of his ethnic groups on
the Trantor of the 1980s, if you take my meaning, after
Yiddish-speaking New York Jews. Of course all Trantor did not speak
Yiddish - that would be absurd in the extreme. At times Asimov could
suddenly discend into the ludicrous, most famously with his Tweenies on
Venus.
I agree also that one cannot include the later Foundational novels in
the canon without running into all sorts of contradictions. And prolix
is indeed the perfect word to describe these novels, even if they do
occasionaly have charming scenes, such as Seldon stopping in a
cafeteria in _Prelude_. >> Stay informed about: Foundation's Edge |
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External
Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 856
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Foundation's Edge [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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virgiliopoeta wrote:
> Tim Bruening a écrit :
>
> > Richard Schultz wrote:
> >
> > > In alt.books.isaac-asimov Tim Bruening <tsbrueni RemoveThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> > >
> > > : . . . I'm certain that Seldon would have predicted that at some point, the
> > > : First Foundation would be tempted to establish the Second Empire prematurely.
> > >
> > > Even so, I disagree with what you say. First of all, we have to remember
> > > that Seldon said from the start that the new empire will be founded after
> > > a 1000-year interregnum, so the people of the Foundation will know --
> > > especially after the Mule's abortive attempt -- that any premature
> > > attempt to establish a new empire will not succeed. In addition, not every
> > > course of action is necessarily a Seldon Crisis. A Seldon Crisis occurs
> > > by definition when only one course of action is open to the Foundation,
> > > or as in the case of the confrontation with the Empire, only one outcome
> > > is possible. In _Second Foundation_, when the First Speaker is explaining
> > > his Ph. D. thesis to the student, he refers to the Second Empire as
> > > already in the process of the formation, but some 200 - 300 years before
> > > its official establishment. So it's possible that there will be a Seldon
> > > Crisis of the sort that you mention, but several hundred years after the
> > > events narrated by Asimov.
> >
> > I was saying that I was certain that Seldon would have predicted that at some
> > point, some Mayor would try to establish a @nd Empire prematurely, but I wasn't
> > saying that Seldon would have predicted that it would happen in FE 498 (The time
> > period of Foundation's Edge).
> >
> > On the other hand:
> >
> > The Seldon Plan was precisely on track at the end of the Seldon Crisis of 498
> > (which involved a dispute over the location of the Foundation's capitol!!!!!).
> > Mayor Branno and Hari Seldon were speaking in unison.
> >
> > On the Gripping Hand (Read the sequal to "The Mote In God's Eye" by Larry Niven and
> > Jerry Pournelle): Mayor Branno was plotting to take over the galaxy, restrained
> > only by fear of the Second Foundation, yet the Second Foundation seems not to have
> > anticipated Branno's attempt to form the 2nd Empire. The Plan was perfectly on
> > track, but Branno's attempt to take over the galaxy was not included in the Plan,
> > else the 2nd Foundation would have anticipated that attempt.
> >
> > The Fourth Hand: If not for the Mule partially revealing the 2nd Foundation, would
> > Mayor Branno (with no reason to fear the 2nd Foundation since she would not have
> > know of its abilities) have already tried to take over the galaxy?
> >
> > 5th Hand: If Branno moved to set up the 2nd Empire, at what point would the Prime
> > Radiant on Trantor have become filled with Deviation Blue?
>
> There is a cryptic reference in the Second Foundation to a point at
> which different personalities would threaten to tear the Second Empire
> apart, or something like that. This is in one of the First Speaker's
> interviews with the Student.
If the two factions were two uneven, the 2nd Empire would become rigid. If the two
factions are to even, the 2nd Empire gets torn apart. If the two factions compromise,
that is bad too. IIRC, either the 1st Speaker or the Student had figured out that the
compromise option would be bad and figured out how to avoid it. >> Stay informed about: Foundation's Edge |
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