"Foundation Series" Vs. "World Of Ptavvs"

[RB comment: Response provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <20040316061810.06226.00003408 DeleteThis @mb-m19.aol.com>,
rball84213 DeleteThis @aol.com (Richard Ballard) writes:

 >In article <c36049$24co9i$1@ID-79033.news.uni-berlin.de>,
 >"Ernest Fairchild" <ernestf DeleteThis @delphidude.com> writes:
 >
  >>"Richard Ballard" <rball84213 DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in message
  >>news:20040315142230.23307.00007329@mb-m29.aol.com...
  >>
   >>>Readers familiar with Larry Niven's novel "World Of Ptavvs"
   >>>know the story of a creature with the ability to control other
   >>>beings' (including human beings') mentalities (with attendent
   >>>control of motor skills), seeking to control an entire planet.
   >>>IMO an interesting scene in this novel is the scene when the
   >>>maturing Ptavv first achieves the ability to mentally shield
   >>>itself from others' thoughts (immediately after embarrassing
   >>>itself at a party).
   >>>
   >>>Someone close to me once told me "The skin on your rectum
   >>>is the same as the skin on your lips." At the time I laughed,
   >>>but later I reflected "I'd expect a clever security officer to
   >>>say that." I thought about the World Of Ptavvs, where the
   >>>(once embarrassed) Ptavv controls alien beings adept at
   >>>biological engineering. Then I thought about Asimov's
   >>>Foundation Series, with its emphasis on emotional control.
  >>
  >>Ummm, ptavv means slave. The ones *being controlled* are the slaves.
 >
 >Since its been over twenty years since I read "World Of Ptavvs"
 >I am not going to worry about an inconsequential detail. Yes,
 >the alien beings that were being controlled were the Ptavvs,
 >the slaves, but the controlling being was vanquished. I believe
 >that I made my original point about clever security officers clearly.
 >
 >IMO Asimov's Foundation Series is fascinating for another reason.
 >The concept of a (superior?) Second Foundation that shepherds
 >the direction and destiny of the First Foundation (and the galaxy)
 >is fascinating. Some First Foundationers look to the Second
 >Foundation as problem solving saviours -- a dysfunctional attitude
 >that weakens those First Foundationers. Other First Foundationers
 >look at the Second Foundationers as aloof diletantes who steer
 >human society in a flawed selfserving direction while allowing
 >the First Foundationers to perform all the physical labor.
 >
 >This First Foundation attitude is not without societal precedent
 >(another point of my original message). I remember hearing stories
 >20+ years ago about Trilateral Commission members meeting in the
 >Northern California redwoods both to discuss Commission business
 >and also to enjoy Pagan festivities. (Apparently one former
 >United States Secretary of State was photographed in the woods
 >wearing a toga.)
 >
 >I will allow interested readers to investigate the history
 >of the Trilateral Commission and its membership.
 >
 >BTW, this is a playful thread and I like word games. Consider
 >the sentence 'I sack as I move'.

This thread started as a speculation concerning sci-fi authors
and anecdotes told by their interesting friends. If these
anecdotes are real they might be traceable in the resulting
stories. One example: Who served as the inspiration for
'The Mule' in Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series?

The Mule was a genius at emotional control. How do humans
accomplish emotional control? Through negative and positive
emotions. Negative emotions typically are fearful -- physical
fear in wartime and financial fear in peacetime. Positive emotions
typically include desire for success (which can be promoted
monetarily) and desire for love and acceptance (which can be
facilitated by success and which also can be directly promoted
financially). A person able to flood another with positive and
negative emotions can emotionally control that other person.

And you would expect a mule to be stubborn.

Howard Hughes was an eccentric and driven engineer. Early
in his life he developed and patented a oildrilling bit superior
to all others on the market. Hughes did not sell his drillbits --
he leased them. Howard Hughes had a monopoly on his
superior oildrilling bits that provided a _huge_ steady income
stream throughout his lifetime. Howard Hughes easily could
buy and sell people -- negative emotional terror.

Howard Hughes expanded into many ventures, including
aeronautics (he built The Spruce Goose, the largest successful
wooden aircraft ever produced) and he happily ran his own
movie studio. Howard Hughes had access to a seemingly
endless supply of starlets (including the voluptuous Jane
Russell). No doubt Howard Hughes and his starlet friends
threw some wonderful parties, and people would go to great
lengths to get onto the Hughes party 'A list' -- positive
emotional bliss.

Hughes was eccentric, incredibly wealthy, and had many
beautiful starlet friends -- Hughes wielded the carrot and the
stick. And eccentric Hughes was known to be incredibly
stubborn and willing to back up his wishes with money.

IMO Howard Hughes was the real life model for The Mule
in Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "Foundation Series" Vs. "World Of Ptavvs" 

Richard Ballard <rball84213 RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
 > IMO Howard Hughes was the real life model for The Mule
 > in Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series.

I'm not quite sure when Hughes was doing all those things you mentioned,
but the Mule (the original story, later collected into Foundation and Empire)
was originally PUBLISHED in 1945 (Astounding, Nov & Dec 1945).
So that is quote a bit earlier then World of Ptavvs.
--
********************************************************************
** Eef Hartman, Delft University of Technology, dept. EWI/TW **
** e-mail: E.J.M.Hartman RemoveThis @math.tudelft.nl, fax: +31-15-278 7295 **
** snail-mail: P.O. Box 5031, 2600 GA Delft, The Netherlands **
********************************************************************<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "Foundation Series" Vs. "World Of Ptavvs" 

[RB comment: Message provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <20040316071345.23307.00007333.DeleteThis@mb-m29.aol.com>,
rball84213.DeleteThis@aol.com (Richard Ballard) writes:

 >In article <20040316061810.06226.00003408.DeleteThis@mb-m19.aol.com>,
 >rball84213@aol.com (Richard Ballard) writes:
 >
  >>In article <c36049$24co9i$1@ID-79033.news.uni-berlin.de>,
  >>"Ernest Fairchild" <ernestf.DeleteThis@delphidude.com> writes:
  >>
   >>>"Richard Ballard" <rball84213.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
   >>>news:20040315142230.23307.00007329@mb-m29.aol.com...
   >>>
   >>>>Readers familiar with Larry Niven's novel "World Of Ptavvs"
   >>>>know the story of a creature with the ability to control other
   >>>>beings' (including human beings') mentalities (with attendent
   >>>>control of motor skills), seeking to control an entire planet.
   >>>>IMO an interesting scene in this novel is the scene when the
   >>>>maturing Ptavv first achieves the ability to mentally shield
   >>>>itself from others' thoughts (immediately after embarrassing
   >>>>itself at a party).
   >>>>
   >>>>Someone close to me once told me "The skin on your rectum
   >>>>is the same as the skin on your lips." At the time I laughed,
   >>>>but later I reflected "I'd expect a clever security officer to
   >>>>say that." I thought about the World Of Ptavvs, where the
   >>>>(once embarrassed) Ptavv controls alien beings adept at
   >>>>biological engineering. Then I thought about Asimov's
   >>>>Foundation Series, with its emphasis on emotional control.
   >>>
   >>>Ummm, ptavv means slave. The ones *being controlled* are the
   >>>slaves.
  >>
  >>Since its been over twenty years since I read "World Of Ptavvs"
  >>I am not going to worry about an inconsequential detail. Yes,
  >>the alien beings that were being controlled were the Ptavvs,
  >>the slaves, but the controlling being was vanquished. I believe
  >>that I made my original point about clever security officers
  >>clearly.
  >>
  >>IMO Asimov's Foundation Series is fascinating for another reason.
  >>The concept of a (superior?) Second Foundation that shepherds
  >>the direction and destiny of the First Foundation (and the galaxy)
  >>is fascinating. Some First Foundationers look to the Second
  >>Foundation as problem solving saviours -- a dysfunctional attitude
  >>that weakens those First Foundationers. Other First Foundationers
  >>look at the Second Foundationers as aloof diletantes who steer
  >>human society in a flawed selfserving direction while allowing
  >>the First Foundationers to perform all the physical labor.
  >>
  >>This First Foundation attitude is not without societal precedent
  >>(another point of my original message). I remember hearing stories
  >>20+ years ago about Trilateral Commission members meeting in the
  >>Northern California redwoods both to discuss Commission business
  >>and also to enjoy Pagan festivities. (Apparently one former
  >>United States Secretary of State was photographed in the woods
  >>wearing a toga.)
  >>
  >>I will allow interested readers to investigate the history
  >>of the Trilateral Commission and its membership.
  >>
  >>BTW, this is a playful thread and I like word games. Consider
  >>the sentence 'I sack as I move'.
 >
 >This thread started as a speculation concerning sci-fi authors
 >and anecdotes told by their interesting friends. If these
 >anecdotes are real they might be traceable in the resulting
 >stories. One example: Who served as the inspiration for
 >'The Mule' in Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series?
 >
 >The Mule was a genius at emotional control. How do humans
 >accomplish emotional control? Through negative and positive
 >emotions. Negative emotions typically are fearful -- physical
 >fear in wartime and financial fear in peacetime. Positive emotions
 >typically include desire for success (which can be promoted
 >monetarily) and desire for love and acceptance (which can be
 >facilitated by success and which also can be directly promoted
 >financially). A person able to flood another with positive and
 >negative emotions can emotionally control that other person.
 >
 >And you would expect a mule to be stubborn.
 >
 >Howard Hughes was an eccentric and driven engineer. Early
 >in his life he developed and patented a oildrilling bit superior
 >to all others on the market. Hughes did not sell his drillbits --
 >he leased them. Howard Hughes had a monopoly on his
 >superior oildrilling bits that provided a _huge_ steady income
 >stream throughout his lifetime. Howard Hughes easily could
 >buy and sell people -- negative emotional terror.
 >
 >Howard Hughes expanded into many ventures, including
 >aeronautics (he built The Spruce Goose, the largest successful
 >wooden aircraft ever produced) and he happily ran his own
 >movie studio. Howard Hughes had access to a seemingly
 >endless supply of starlets (including the voluptuous Jane
 >Russell). No doubt Howard Hughes and his starlet friends
 >threw some wonderful parties, and people would go to great
 >lengths to get onto the Hughes party 'A list' -- positive
 >emotional bliss.
 >
 >Hughes was eccentric, incredibly wealthy, and had many
 >beautiful starlet friends -- Hughes wielded the carrot and the
 >stick. And eccentric Hughes was known to be incredibly
 >stubborn and willing to back up his wishes with money.
 >
 >IMO Howard Hughes was the real life model for The Mule
 >in Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series.

21st Century young adults might find my speculation that
Howard Hughes was the real life model for Isaac Asimov's
'The Mule' fanciful. I want to place my speculation in
a 21st Century perspective -- a perspective where T V has
more power than novels.

I never have met Mr. Donald Trump, but I have viewed him
infrequently on T V. Mr. Trump is a very financially successful
and powerful businessman. IMO Mr. Trump combines the
characteristics of goal-oriented motivation, stubborness once
he has made a decision, and pragmatism -- IMO an effective
combination. IMO in some ways Mr. Trump shares characteristics
with Mr. Howard Hughes (now deceased). One very significant
difference is that while Mr. Trump is a polished social gentleman,
late in his life Mr. Howard Hughes became reclusive.

Mr. Trump currently has a T V show where he works with
managers, evaluates their actions, and corrects them (or in
some cases fires them). Making presentations before
The Boss and being publicly reprimanded is a memorable
experience, and Mr. Trump leads his managers effectively.

I am working from memory, but in Isaac Asimov's "Foundation"
series there is a scene where somebody is waiting for a
conference with 'The Mule' and is told that The Mule is busy
'emotionally adjusting' a recently captured enemy General.
In short order The Mule arrives, indicates 'No Problem' and
the conference commences.

I can imagine a hypothetical situation where Mr. Trump purchases
a business and confers with the business's (former) CEO.
Mr. Trump now owns the business and Mr. Trump _tells_
the business's (former) CEO his new role within the business.
The business's (former) CEO protests, and Mr. Trump _tells_
the business's (former) CEO the personal financial ramifications
of carrying out his protests. The (former) CEO is emotionally
(financially and influentially) adjusted, the conference ends,
and Mr. Trump continues unhindered with his own ventures
accompanied by his everpresent administrative assistant.

The film "The Game" contains sequences where Michael Douglas
depicts an investment banker confering with the (former) CEO
of a now purchased publishing company. Mr. Douglas arrives at
the meeting unaccompanied and several chaotic interventions
spoil the meeting (and the sequences' use in this analogy).
In real life, I believe Mr. Douglas would arrive accompanied by
business associates and that careful logistics would prevent
chaotic interventions from spoiling the conference.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "Foundation Series" Vs. "World Of Ptavvs" 

[RB comment: Message provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <20040317122923.25517.00004791.DeleteThis@mb-m15.aol.com>,
rball84213.DeleteThis@aol.com (Richard Ballard) writes:

 >In article <20040316071345.23307.00007333.DeleteThis@mb-m29.aol.com>,
 >rball84213@aol.com (Richard Ballard) writes:
 >
  >>In article <20040316061810.06226.00003408.DeleteThis@mb-m19.aol.com>,
  >>rball84213@aol.com (Richard Ballard) writes:
  >>
   >>>In article <c36049$24co9i$1@ID-79033.news.uni-berlin.de>,
   >>>"Ernest Fairchild" <ernestf.DeleteThis@delphidude.com> writes:
   >>>
   >>>>"Richard Ballard" <rball84213.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
   >>>>news:20040315142230.23307.00007329@mb-m29.aol.com...
   >>>>
   >>>>>Readers familiar with Larry Niven's novel "World Of Ptavvs"
   >>>>>know the story of a creature with the ability to control other
   >>>>>beings' (including human beings') mentalities (with attendent
   >>>>>control of motor skills), seeking to control an entire planet.
   >>>>>IMO an interesting scene in this novel is the scene when the
   >>>>>maturing Ptavv first achieves the ability to mentally shield
   >>>>>itself from others' thoughts (immediately after embarrassing
   >>>>>itself at a party).
   >>>>>
   >>>>>Someone close to me once told me "The skin on your rectum
   >>>>>is the same as the skin on your lips." At the time I laughed,
   >>>>>but later I reflected "I'd expect a clever security officer to
   >>>>>say that." I thought about the World Of Ptavvs, where the
   >>>>>(once embarrassed) Ptavv controls alien beings adept at
   >>>>>biological engineering. Then I thought about Asimov's
   >>>>>Foundation Series, with its emphasis on emotional control.
   >>>>
   >>>>Ummm, ptavv means slave. The ones *being controlled* are the
   >>>>slaves.
   >>>
   >>>Since its been over twenty years since I read "World Of Ptavvs"
   >>>I am not going to worry about an inconsequential detail. Yes,
   >>>the alien beings that were being controlled were the Ptavvs,
   >>>the slaves, but the controlling being was vanquished. I believe
   >>>that I made my original point about clever security officers
   >>>clearly.
   >>>
   >>>IMO Asimov's Foundation Series is fascinating for another reason.
   >>>The concept of a (superior?) Second Foundation that shepherds
   >>>the direction and destiny of the First Foundation (and the galaxy)
   >>>is fascinating. Some First Foundationers look to the Second
   >>>Foundation as problem solving saviours -- a dysfunctional attitude
   >>>that weakens those First Foundationers. Other First Foundationers
   >>>look at the Second Foundationers as aloof diletantes who steer
   >>>human society in a flawed selfserving direction while allowing
   >>>the First Foundationers to perform all the physical labor.
   >>>
   >>>This First Foundation attitude is not without societal precedent
   >>>(another point of my original message). I remember hearing stories
   >>>20+ years ago about Trilateral Commission members meeting in the
   >>>Northern California redwoods both to discuss Commission business
   >>>and also to enjoy Pagan festivities. (Apparently one former
   >>>United States Secretary of State was photographed in the woods
   >>>wearing a toga.)
   >>>
   >>>I will allow interested readers to investigate the history
   >>>of the Trilateral Commission and its membership.
   >>>
   >>>BTW, this is a playful thread and I like word games. Consider
   >>>the sentence 'I sack as I move'.
  >>
  >>This thread started as a speculation concerning sci-fi authors
  >>and anecdotes told by their interesting friends. If these
  >>anecdotes are real they might be traceable in the resulting
  >>stories. One example: Who served as the inspiration for
  >>'The Mule' in Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series?
  >>
  >>The Mule was a genius at emotional control. How do humans
  >>accomplish emotional control? Through negative and positive
  >>emotions. Negative emotions typically are fearful -- physical
  >>fear in wartime and financial fear in peacetime. Positive emotions
  >>typically include desire for success (which can be promoted
  >>monetarily) and desire for love and acceptance (which can be
  >>facilitated by success and which also can be directly promoted
  >>financially). A person able to flood another with positive and
  >>negative emotions can emotionally control that other person.
  >>
  >>And you would expect a mule to be stubborn.
  >>
  >>Howard Hughes was an eccentric and driven engineer. Early
  >>in his life he developed and patented a oildrilling bit superior
  >>to all others on the market. Hughes did not sell his drillbits --
  >>he leased them. Howard Hughes had a monopoly on his
  >>superior oildrilling bits that provided a _huge_ steady income
  >>stream throughout his lifetime. Howard Hughes easily could
  >>buy and sell people -- negative emotional terror.
  >>
  >>Howard Hughes expanded into many ventures, including
  >>aeronautics (he built The Spruce Goose, the largest successful
  >>wooden aircraft ever produced) and he happily ran his own
  >>movie studio. Howard Hughes had access to a seemingly
  >>endless supply of starlets (including the voluptuous Jane
  >>Russell). No doubt Howard Hughes and his starlet friends
  >>threw some wonderful parties, and people would go to great
  >>lengths to get onto the Hughes party 'A list' -- positive
  >>emotional bliss.
  >>
  >>Hughes was eccentric, incredibly wealthy, and had many
  >>beautiful starlet friends -- Hughes wielded the carrot and the
  >>stick. And eccentric Hughes was known to be incredibly
  >>stubborn and willing to back up his wishes with money.
  >>
  >>IMO Howard Hughes was the real life model for The Mule
  >>in Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series.

Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series chronicles one world being
conquered without firing a shot. That world fell when a
gadget that disrupts critical infrastructure prevented the
world's occupants from resisting The Mule's invading forces.
Asimov states that The Mule used intense emotional control
to mentally supercharge the engineer designing this infrastructure
disraptor. The engineer completed his project in record time,
but the resulting mental strain permanently stripped the engineer's
motivation. The engineer's motivation was burnt out and he
no longer could work at his previous vocation.

A motivational session with Mr. Hughes must have been living hell.
How could we describe it? Imagine you are the Chief Engineer on
a critical project. You are summoned to the Mr. Hughes' office
in another city and Mr. Hughes tells you "Your project is of critical
importance. Either finish the project in the next two weeks or
you _never_ will work again."

You walk stunned out of Mr. Hughes' office. You live in a high cost
area and your monthly mortgage payments are killers. You are having
'interesting times' -- your credit cards all are charged to the max
and you fear that the monthly interest charges will put you over the
top, ruining your credit. And you just leased a new expensive
'goat' for your daughter -- a 350 HP Pontiac GTO that spins its tires
like you would not believe. If you can't work you are bankrupted --
your wife will divorce you, you never again will see your daughter,
you will lose everything and probably will end up living with your
mother.

You return to your office, calm your nerves, and then schedule
a motivational meeting with your project team. After the
motivational meeting, all of your project team members are
emotionally motivated, but your project team members regard
you differently and the interestng project no longer is enjoyable.
Living hell, and suddenly for you there is no 'I' in project team.

 >21st Century young adults might find my speculation that
 >Howard Hughes was the real life model for Isaac Asimov's
 >'The Mule' fanciful. I want to place my speculation in
 >a 21st Century perspective -- a perspective where T V has
 >more power than novels.
 >
 >I never have met Mr. Donald Trump, but I have viewed him
 >infrequently on T V. Mr. Trump is a very financially successful
 >and powerful businessman. IMO Mr. Trump combines the
 >characteristics of goal-oriented motivation, stubborness once
 >he has made a decision, and pragmatism -- IMO an effective
 >combination. IMO in some ways Mr. Trump shares characteristics
 >with Mr. Howard Hughes (now deceased). One very significant
 >difference is that while Mr. Trump is a polished social gentleman,
 >late in his life Mr. Howard Hughes became reclusive.
 >
 >Mr. Trump currently has a T V show where he works with
 >managers, evaluates their actions, and corrects them (or in
 >some cases fires them). Making presentations before
 >The Boss and being publicly reprimanded is a memorable
 >experience, and Mr. Trump leads his managers effectively.
 >
 >I am working from memory, but in Isaac Asimov's "Foundation"
 >series there is a scene where somebody is waiting for a
 >conference with 'The Mule' and is told that The Mule is busy
 >'emotionally adjusting' a recently captured enemy General.
 >In short order The Mule arrives, indicates 'No Problem' and
 >the conference commences.
 >
 >I can imagine a hypothetical situation where Mr. Trump purchases
 >a business and confers with the business's (former) CEO.
 >Mr. Trump now owns the business and Mr. Trump _tells_
 >the business's (former) CEO his new role within the business.
 >The business's (former) CEO protests, and Mr. Trump _tells_
 >the business's (former) CEO the personal financial ramifications
 >of carrying out his protests. The (former) CEO is emotionally
 >(financially and influentially) adjusted, the conference ends,
 >and Mr. Trump continues unhindered with his own ventures
 >accompanied by his everpresent administrative assistant.
 >
 >The film "The Game" contains sequences where Michael Douglas
 >depicts an investment banker confering with the (former) CEO
 >of a now purchased publishing company. Mr. Douglas arrives at
 >the meeting unaccompanied and several chaotic interventions
 >spoil the meeting (and the sequences' use in this analogy).
 >In real life, I believe Mr. Douglas would arrive accompanied by
 >business associates and that careful logistics would prevent
 >chaotic interventions from spoiling the conference.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "Foundation Series" Vs. "World Of Ptavvs"