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davtomcat

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Since: Aug 22, 2003
Posts: 78



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 6:51 am
Post subject: Free Kurdistan?
Archived from groups: alt>books>george-orwell (more info?)

http://www.antiwar.com/ips/glantz.php?articleid=2747

It is hard to find people here willing to talk openly against either
of the ruling Kurdish parties. While nowhere near as oppressive as
Saddam's regime, the U.S.-backed Kurdish leaders of Northern Iraq have
virtually banned dissent.

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moyehoist

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Since: Mar 10, 2004
Posts: 315



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Free Kurdistan? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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David,

You give us a link to support the claim that
"Kurdish leaders of Northern Iraq have
virtually banned dissent." and then we read through the page and find nothing
to support the argument except the same statement itself.

Reminds me of the Monty Python sketch where Chapman the scientist offers "proof
positive" of some outrageous claim - he walks to the blackboard and pulls down
a chart exclaiming "PROOF POSITIVE".

The ditzy blond dutifully accepts this bit of will to truth. I don't.

In fact the article you linked is fairly neutral if not optimistic of a despot
ravaged society that has just escaped years of genocide. It notes the opening
of a new newspaper.

When I opened the page , it had a quote that might serve you well.


It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.
– Albert Camus


I think this is a straw man attack of the US work to drive despotism and
terrorism out of the middle east.

r

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selene1022v

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Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 92



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 3:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Free Kurdistan? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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davtomcat DeleteThis @hotmail.com (David Tomlin) wrote in message news:<7f38da74.0406050251.e983b06 DeleteThis @posting.google.com>...
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.antiwar.com/ips/glantz.php?articleid=2747</font" target="_blank">http://www.antiwar.com/ips/glantz.php?articleid=2747</font</a>>
 >
 > It is hard to find people here willing to talk openly against either
 > of the ruling Kurdish parties. While nowhere near as oppressive as
 > Saddam's regime, the U.S.-backed Kurdish leaders of Northern Iraq have
 > virtually banned dissent.

Sorry, it won't work. The Kurds have put aside their olitical
differences because they know that it is in their best interest to do
so. If you had been through the hell that they have, maybe you'd have
a clue. I know many people who are Kurdish, some who have already gone
home. They are rebuilding their society from scratch. (Check out how
the UN oil for food program screwed them out of billions). Of the
Kurds I know, don't get them started on anti-war types. And you think
I'm bad...

JV<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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diyarbekirli1

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Since: Jun 07, 2004
Posts: 1



(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:09 am
Post subject: Re: Free Kurdistan? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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davtomcat RemoveThis @hotmail.com (David Tomlin) wrote in message news:<7f38da74.0406050251.e983b06 RemoveThis @posting.google.com>...
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.antiwar.com/ips/glantz.php?articleid=2747</font" target="_blank">http://www.antiwar.com/ips/glantz.php?articleid=2747</font</a>>
 >
 > It is hard to find people here willing to talk openly against either
 > of the ruling Kurdish parties. While nowhere near as oppressive as
 > Saddam's regime, the U.S.-backed Kurdish leaders of Northern Iraq have
 > virtually banned dissent.

Rubbish. The so called anti-war/anti-imperialist crowd are dying to
belittle and discredit the Kurdish Liberation movement, for no other
reason than the Kurdish co-operation with the coalition to get rid of
a fascist tyrant.

If they knew much about free Kurdistan, they would admit that even
Saddam's baathist newspapers could be sold and purchased freely in
Kurdistan right until the war started. The so called anti-war
activists are blind to that. They are ignorant because they learn
about the Kurdish perspective by following the Arab media, not the
Kurdish media.

The Kurdish democracy is not perfect, but it is young, homegrown, and
better than any other country's in the region except probably Israel.
None of the 22 Arab states are democracies and they never offer as
much freedom for their citizens as that enjoyed by the Kurds of Iraq.
Unlike any of the Arab states, there is an immense amount of rapport,
good will and trust between the Kurdish people, the leadership and
their armed forces.

There is however a current major disagreement between the people and
the leadership. The Kurdish people want independence from Iraq. The
Kurdish leadership is trying to sell autonomy to the people. Without
strong security guarantees and the Kurdish recognition neither people
nor leadership will accept "autonomy". There are fearless criticisms
directed at the leadership for significant concessions made to the CPA
and Arabs over the past one year. Presumably, for the so called-anti
war activists, this does not count as dissent.

Shexmus

Check these websites:

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.kurdistanobserver.com" target="_blank">http://www.kurdistanobserver.com</a>
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.kurdishmedia.com" target="_blank">http://www.kurdishmedia.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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moyehoist

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Since: Mar 10, 2004
Posts: 315



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Free Kurdistan? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

  >> It is hard to find people here willing to talk openly against either
  >> of the ruling Kurdish parties.

 >There are fearless criticisms
 >directed at the leadership for significant concessions made to the CPA
 >and Arabs over the past one year. Presumably, for the so called-anti
 >war activists, this does not count as dissent.
 >
 >Shexmus
 >
 >Check these websites:
 >
 >http://www.kurdistanobserver.com
 >http://www.kurdishmedia.com

Welcome to the Back of the Bus!

As a Ukrainian American who has just witnessed the affirmation of a Pulitzer
for the cover up of their genocide, I know and can anticipate the horrific
insults that have been heaped upon the injury and genocide of the Kurds.

I apologize for the US not having invaded Iraq sooner.

As Orwell said, some animals are more equal than others and it is trully
mystifing that the Left is able to wield so much power and to make black equal
white.

What did you think of the backhanded Chomsky stuff from two years ago? My
perception is that he was trying to justify the Kurds continued terror under
Iraq by making a ridiculous straw dog scenario of Turkey being entrusted to
conduct our invasion and being allowed to committ genocide an yet another
nation.

He's antiwar and he is considered creative, so I guess this absurd posit was
perceived as from on high and onther reason to avoid war with Iraq so that the
"Kurds do not suffer" (LOL)

Chomsky said:


"So we can be pretty confident that one way or another the US is trying to
ensure that Iraq will re-enter to the international system under US control.
Now, how do you achieve this? Well, one plan, and this plan has been discussed
in Turkey as you know, is for the US to use Turkey as a mercenary military
force to conquer Northern Iraq with ground troops while the US bombs from
20,000 feet, The compensation for Turkey could be that it will get control of
the oil resources of Musul and Kerkuk, which it has always regarded as part of
Turkey. And for the US, that will block its enemies -- Russia, France and
others -- from having privileged access to the oil of that region. Meanwhile
the US will take over the South in some fashion.
What happens to the Kurds?
I hate to think about it. It will probably be a terrible slaughter of one kind
or another. They will be right in the middle of this. For Turkey, apart from
the question of right and wrong, it would be a very dangerous move. And it’s
a very dangerous move for the US as well, if only because it could blow up the
whole region. It could lead to a revolution in Saudi Arabia. Nobody knows.

Elements of the Bush administration are pursuing these and similar plans, and
you can see the logic. Whether they will be allowed to implement such plans is
another story. I’m rather sceptical. I think the arguments against it are
probably too strong. But they don’t know themselves, and surely no one else
can.


-----------------------

Yeah, it turned into a real chain reaction of chaos.

All I know is that as soon as we invaded, Libya went on its knees and North
Korea shut up.

r

PS and thank you selene.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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