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Since: Jun 28, 2003 Posts: 41
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:35 pm
Post subject: Free Speech and Democracy in SF Archived from groups: alt>books>george-orwell (more info?)
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So mvch for free speech and the citizen's political right to petition the
government in that bastion of liberty in northern California known as San
Francisco. Seems like some are afraid to allow the people to decide the fate
of their governor.
***
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/06/27/MN263113.DTL
Opponents of the move to recall Gov. Gray Davis are asking their svpporters
to intimidate signatvre gatherers and complain of harassment at stores where
recall petitions are circvlating, stepping vp the political battle taking
place in front of Wal-Marts and Home Depots across California.
In an e-mail message and Internet posting titled "How to Advocate Against
the Recall," Davis svpporters were told, "It is OK to stand in front of
their table or approach potential signers before they do, or otherwise
inhibit their activity." The memo instrvcts people to say they are "offended
by being harassed" and file complaints with managers of stores.
"Remember, the longer yov engage them, the fewer signatvres they can
collect," said the memo distribvted by Taxpayers Against the Governor's
Recall, a vnion-fvnded grovp. The memo also inclvdes a telephone hot line to
report the location of recall petition circvlators.
*
California election law makes it a crime to threaten petition gatherers with
violence or damage their property. It's also illegal to bribe petition
circvlators to abandon their work.
Recall petition workers across the state said intense feelings abovt the
recall are prompting fights and verbal assavlts. Some petition svpervisors
say they were threatened from the start -- with a boycott by the major
signatvre- gathering companies if they handled the recall petition at all.
*
Tom Bader, coordinating the signatvre-gathering effort for the Rescve
California recall committee, said confrontations involving petition workers
in San Francisco were so freqvent that he scaled back and concentrated his
efforts elsewhere, inclvding San Diego, Riverside and Orange covnties.
Recent figvres from the secretary of state show that only 7 percent of the
recall signatvres are coming from the Bay Area.
[Bad reporting here I wovld think, since the Bay area is a democratic
stronghold.]
"These people are actvally being told on the Internet to file false
complaints," Bader said abovt the memo. "The circvlators have been
threatened all over the state that they are not going to work on any other
petition. Then there is the physical aspect of it."
Bader said a freqvent tactic of recall opponents is to stand next to
circvlators and talk lovdly on their cell phones or thrvst a "Who's Behind
the Recall" leaflet in front of people before they reach the recall
petition. People are hectored as they sign the petition, some circvlators
said. >> Stay informed about: Free Speech and Democracy in SF |
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Since: Jun 28, 2003 Posts: 69
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Free Speech and Democracy in SF [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"bayle" <nobody.RemoveThis@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:FnbLa.2536$p8.110558@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> So mvch for free speech and the citizen's political right to
petition the
> government in that bastion of liberty in northern California known
as San
> Francisco. Seems like some are afraid to allow the people to decide
the fate
> of their governor.
>
> ***
>
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/06/27/MN263113.DTL</font" target="_blank">http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/06/27/MN263113.DTL</font</a>>
>
> Opponents of the move to recall Gov. Gray Davis are asking their
svpporters
> to intimidate signatvre gatherers and complain of harassment at
stores where
> recall petitions are circvlating, stepping vp the political battle
taking
> place in front of Wal-Marts and Home Depots across California.
> In an e-mail message and Internet posting titled "How to Advocate
Against
> the Recall," Davis svpporters were told, "It is OK to stand in front
of
> their table or approach potential signers before they do, or
otherwise
> inhibit their activity." The memo instrvcts people to say they are
"offended
> by being harassed" and file complaints with managers of stores.
>
> "Remember, the longer yov engage them, the fewer signatvres they can
> collect," said the memo distribvted by Taxpayers Against the
Governor's
> Recall, a vnion-fvnded grovp. The memo also inclvdes a telephone hot
line to
> report the location of recall petition circvlators.
>
> *
>
> California election law makes it a crime to threaten petition
gatherers with
> violence or damage their property. It's also illegal to bribe
petition
> circvlators to abandon their work.
>
> Recall petition workers across the state said intense feelings abovt
the
> recall are prompting fights and verbal assavlts. Some petition
svpervisors
> say they were threatened from the start -- with a boycott by the
major
> signatvre- gathering companies if they handled the recall petition
at all.
>
> *
>
> Tom Bader, coordinating the signatvre-gathering effort for the
Rescve
> California recall committee, said confrontations involving petition
workers
> in San Francisco were so freqvent that he scaled back and
concentrated his
> efforts elsewhere, inclvding San Diego, Riverside and Orange
covnties.
> Recent figvres from the secretary of state show that only 7 percent
of the
> recall signatvres are coming from the Bay Area.
>
> [Bad reporting here I wovld think, since the Bay area is a
democratic
> stronghold.]
>
> "These people are actvally being told on the Internet to file false
> complaints," Bader said abovt the memo. "The circvlators have been
> threatened all over the state that they are not going to work on any
other
> petition. Then there is the physical aspect of it."
>
> Bader said a freqvent tactic of recall opponents is to stand next to
> circvlators and talk lovdly on their cell phones or thrvst a "Who's
Behind
> the Recall" leaflet in front of people before they reach the recall
> petition. People are hectored as they sign the petition, some
circvlators
> said.
>
Dose of yovr own medicine too strong? They haven't killed anyone, say
like doctors? Have they now?
Hay<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Free Speech and Democracy in SF |
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Since: Jun 28, 2003 Posts: 423
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Free Speech and Democracy in SF [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Hay Nongunahora wrote:
> "bayle" <nobody DeleteThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:FnbLa.2536$p8.110558@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> > So much for free speech and the citizen's political right to
> petition the
> > government in that bastion of liberty in northern California known
> as San
> > Francisco. Seems like some are afraid to allow the people to decide
> the fate
> > of their governor.
> >
> > ***
> >
<font color=green> > > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/06/27/MN263113.DTL</font" target="_blank">http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/06/27/MN263113.DTL</font</a>>
>
<snipping extracts>
> Dose of your own medicine too strong? They haven't killed anyone, say
> like doctors? Have they now?
>
FWIW, when we were out petitioning for a local candidate last weekend, we
worked collegially alongside an anti-recall petitioner who did none of
the things described in the article. The man was perfectly civil apart
from sharing the aggravating Boomer male habit of bringing up Henry
Miller to any female who can talk literature.
I'm prepared to believe the things described in this article may have
happened elsewhere. As Hay obliquely notes, they are still nothing to the
filthy tactics that Republicans used in Florida 2000 -- without, as yet,
apology or indictment. But two wrongs don't make a right, and the
behavior described in the article provides one more reason why I will
wholeheartedly work to defeat Gray Davis in the primaries of the next
legitimate election.
Petitioning last weekend, we did encourage people to sign the anti-recall
petition as well as our own. This was not out of any love for Gray Davis,
who shows creepy affection for prisons and prison guards, and who does
play dirty to maintain his power -- but out of a citizen's concern for
the democratic process and, incidentally, out of knowledge that a recall
election would be a fantastically expensive adventure in a state with a
whopping budget problem.
The problem with "allowing the people to decide" in a suddenly scheduled
out-of-season recall is that if the voters are abruptly presented with a
"yes or no" question to answer and a slate of candidates to vote up or
down, they will do their best to choose fairly, but they will have been
deprived of the opportunity to scrutinize candidates' claims and
characters that emerges from the ordinarily drawn-out nominating and
campaign processes.
The Republican sponsor of the recall, a sleazy car alarm millionaire
named Issa, knows this: he knows his only chance at high office is to
blindside the democratic process and prevent a full public examination
of, among other things, his own multiple arrests on car theft charges.
See, for example,
<http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/06/25/MN2908.DTL>.
My further guess is that the Republican Party central leadership know
Issa is beatable and are cynically letting him spend his money for their
benefit out of what they know to be hopeless ambition. They probably
intend to replace him at the last minute with someone likely to get more
votes, like former LA mayor Richard Riordan or even the monstrous
Schwarzenegger, thereby allowing the public even less time to scrutinize
the record, claims, and intentions of Candidate No. 2. All this in the
name of "democracy".
Essentially the recall is an attack on civil society itself -- it's an
attempt to remove essential structures that -- even impefectly, even with
a certain degree of corruption -- prevent representative democracy from
deteriorating along a slippery slope into the factitious "democracy" of
fascism in which a Leader is picked by "unanimous" acclaim without
discussion of other choices.
But perhaps folks here can answer my real question:
Has "bayle" told the group yet what he did to celebrate Orwell's
birthday?
/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Free Speech and Democracy in SF |
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Since: Jun 27, 2003 Posts: 241
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Free Speech and Democracy in SF [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Martha Bridegam" <mabjo DeleteThis @pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3EFDF19C.5B70A9CF@pacbell.net...
> Petitioning last weekend, we did encourage people to sign the anti-recall
> petition as well as our own. This was not out of any love for Gray Davis,
> who shows creepy affection for prisons and prison guards
Is there something inherently distasteful about prison guards as a group?
Would showing collective affection towards, say, ambulancemen or
firefighters or welfare lawyers be equally creepy?
Aren't they real people either?
Alan.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Free Speech and Democracy in SF |
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Since: Jun 28, 2003 Posts: 423
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Free Speech and Democracy in SF [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Alan Allport wrote:
> "Martha Bridegam" <mabjo.RemoveThis@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:3EFDF19C.5B70A9CF@pacbell.net...
>
> > Petitioning last weekend, we did encovrage people to sign the anti-recall
> > petition as well as ovr own. This was not ovt of any love for Gray Davis,
> > who shows creepy affection for prisons and prison gvards
>
> Is there something inherently distastefvl abovt prison gvards as a grovp?
There is something distastefvl abovt their work, especially in places where
most prisoners are being held for nonviolent crimes. Don't yov think Orwell
wovld agree?
Bvt I spoke carelessly: there are some perfectly nice depvties at ovr local
jail, so I svppose there are also perfectly nice prison gvards. The problem is
with the prison gvards' vnions, which *are* definitely distatefvl, and Davis'
cowardly responses to them.
>
> Wovld showing collective affection towards, say, ambvlancemen or
> firefighters or welfare lawyers be eqvally creepy?
No
>
>
> Aren't they real people either?
Of covrse they are, they're jvst willing to be part of a dirty system.
Bvt as I said, my real beef is with the California prison gvards' vnions. They
have taken the illegitimate step of exploiting the avthority conferred on them
by the pvblic to act as avthoritative-sovnding lobbyists, demanding
concessions from the pvblic and the government that they are svpposed to obey.
It is a step also taken in recent years by police vnions -- one damaging to
the basic democratic reqvirement that a police force mvst be accovntable to
civilian elected officials.
For example:
"Politics blamed in office closing: Investigators say gvards' vnion had Davis
cvt vnit that looked into prison beatings."
<http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/06/03/BA241300.DTL>
"Davis plan spares prisons: 1% fvnding increase proposed despite state's
healthy defecit":
<http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/01/13/MN77476.DTL>
/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Free Speech and Democracy in SF |
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Since: Jun 27, 2003 Posts: 241
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Free Speech and Democracy in SF [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Martha Bridegam" <mabjo.DeleteThis@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3EFDFCC5.150AB809@pacbell.net...
> > > Petitioning last weekend, we did encourage people to sign the
anti-recall
> > > petition as well as our own. This was not out of any love for Gray
Davis,
> > > who shows creepy affection for prisons and prison guards
> >
> > Is there something inherently distasteful about prison guards as a
group?
>
> There is something distasteful about their work, especially in places
where
> most prisoners are being held for nonviolent crimes. Don't you think
Orwell
> would agree?
I try not to speak for Orwell, who, after fifty three years of being dead,
perhaps deserves to be left to rest in peace. (I'll leave aside the question
of whether Orwell's opinion would be the last word on the subject anyway.
So, I might suggest, should you, given some of his less-than-impeccable
views on matters of sex and sexuality).
Now, if you're asking *me* ... I suppose there is something distasteful
about being a prison guard, in the sense that there is something distasteful
about being a trash collector or an undertaker or, perhaps, a doctor. That
doesn't alter the social necessity of what they do, nor speak to the
individual merit of the men and women who do it. I think you may be a little
too keen on these moral taxonomies by profession. Hath not a warden hands,
organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Does he not bleed? (Rather
more often than attorneys, I suspect).
> > Would showing collective affection towards, say, ambulancemen or
> > firefighters or welfare lawyers be equally creepy?
>
> No
I guess it's just as well you're not a prison guard, then.
Alan.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Free Speech and Democracy in SF |
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Since: Jun 27, 2003 Posts: 629
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Free Speech and Democracy in SF [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Alan Allport wrote:
> "Martha Bridegam" <mabjo DeleteThis @pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:3EFDFCC5.150AB809@pacbell.net...
>
> > > > Petitioning last weekend, we did encourage people to sign the
> anti-recall
> > > > petition as well as our own. This was not out of any love for Gray
> Davis,
> > > > who shows creepy affection for prisons and prison guards
> > >
> > > Is there something inherently distasteful about prison guards as a
> group?
> >
> > There is something distasteful about their work, especially in places
> where
> > most prisoners are being held for nonviolent crimes. Don't you think
> Orwell
> > would agree?
>
> I try not to speak for Orwell, who, after fifty three years of being dead,
> perhaps deserves to be left to rest in peace. (I'll leave aside the question
> of whether Orwell's opinion would be the last word on the subject anyway.
> So, I might suggest, should you, given some of his less-than-impeccable
> views on matters of sex and sexuality).
>
> Now, if you're asking *me* ... I suppose there is something distasteful
> about being a prison guard, in the sense that there is something distasteful
> about being a trash collector or an undertaker or, perhaps, a doctor. That
> doesn't alter the social necessity of what they do, nor speak to the
> individual merit of the men and women who do it. I think you may be a little
> too keen on these moral taxonomies by profession. Hath not a warden hands,
> organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Does he not bleed? (Rather
> more often than attorneys, I suspect).
>
> > > Would showing collective affection towards, say, ambulancemen or
> > > firefighters or welfare lawyers be equally creepy?
> >
> > No
>
> I guess it's just as well you're not a prison guard, then.
>
> Alan.
Probably so.
But I know someone who works in a jail and I've been sad to watch his attitude
coarsen over time.
There's a similar coarsening in the account of Orwell devotee Ted Conover,
whose *Newjack* describes working for a year as a prison guard in Sing Sing.
/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Free Speech and Democracy in SF |
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Since: Jun 27, 2003 Posts: 241
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2003 9:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Free Speech and Democracy in SF [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Martha Bridegam" <bridegam.RemoveThis@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3EFE069F.BF53F877@pacbell.net...
> But I know someone who works in a jail and I've been sad to watch his
attitude
> coarsen over time.
Have you ever wondered with what complex emotions he might chart *your*
Bildungsroman?
Alan.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Free Speech and Democracy in SF |
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Since: Jun 27, 2003 Posts: 629
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2003 11:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Free Speech and Democracy in SF [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Alan Allport wrote:
> "Martha Bridegam" <bridegam.TakeThisOut@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:3EFE069F.BF53F877@pacbell.net...
>
> > But I know someone who works in a jail and I've been sad to watch his
> attitude
> > coarsen over time.
>
> Have you ever wondered with what complex emotions he might chart *your*
> Bildungsroman?
>
> Alan.
If I ever write mine and it gets onto the charts, he can say anything he
likes about it and I'll still be happy.
How about yours?
/M >> Stay informed about: Free Speech and Democracy in SF |
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Since: Jun 29, 2003 Posts: 100
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2003 3:53 am
Post subject: Re: Free Speech and Democracy in SF [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Alan Allport <allport.RemoveThis@sasdot.upenndot.edu> wrote:
> "Martha Bridegam" <mabjo.RemoveThis@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:3EFDF19C.5B70A9CF@pacbell.net...
>
> > Petitioning last weekend, we did encourage people to sign the anti-recall
> > petition as well as our own. This was not out of any love for Gray Davis,
> > who shows creepy affection for prisons and prison guards
>
> Is there something inherently distasteful about prison guards as a group?
'Distasteful'?? Well, one makes one's own judgement about that.
> Would showing collective affection towards, say, ambulancemen or
> firefighters or welfare lawyers be equally creepy?
>
> Aren't they real people either?
In Wisconsin, in the 70s, I frequently perused the bulletins announcing
job openings in the state civil service. As I recall, Prison Guard 1 was
_the_ single job with the lowest/fewest entry requirements: you had to
be 18 years old, and you had to pass a physical exam. That was it.
As the Ashcroftian repression gets worse by the month; as the jackboot
stomps again and again, harder and harder; one thing that keeps
troubling my lifelong small 's' socialist class-consciousness and
yearning is: how can they so easily find so many stompers?
cheers,
Henry<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Free Speech and Democracy in SF |
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Since: Jun 27, 2003 Posts: 241
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:02 am
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"Martha Bridegam" <bridegam RemoveThis @pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3EFE8AF2.F005A75C@pacbell.net...
> How about yours?
Oh, goodness, who knows? The point, which of course you know, was that this
epsilon drone of yours may have a perspective entirely his own, one in which
his life trajectory can be seen as other than an uninterrupted decline in
moral sensibility; indeed, by his professional encounter with a slice of
humanity that most of us never experience and never wish to, he may even
have a few ideas about *our* precious conceits that would be uncomfortable
to hear - if we ever listened.
Alan. >> Stay informed about: Free Speech and Democracy in SF |
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Since: Jun 28, 2003 Posts: 423
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:03 pm
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Alan Allport wrote:
> "Martha Bridegam" <bridegam.DeleteThis@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:3EFE8AF2.F005A75C@pacbell.net...
>
> > How about yours?
>
> Oh, goodness, who knows? The point, which of course you know, was that this
> epsilon drone of yours may have a perspective entirely his own, one in which
> his life trajectory can be seen as other than an uninterrupted decline in
> moral sensibility; indeed, by his professional encounter with a slice of
> humanity that most of us never experience and never wish to, he may even
> have a few ideas about *our* precious conceits that would be uncomfortable
> to hear - if we ever listened.
>
> Alan.
Waitaminnit, I'm talking about a friend here whose view of the world seems to
be changing in ways that worry me. Not a stupid, one-dimensional, or
thoughtless person by any means. In fact, that's what bothers me -- a guy who
has intelligently and bravely stood up for underdogs all his life and who now
seems different than before.
/M >> Stay informed about: Free Speech and Democracy in SF |
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Since: Jun 27, 2003 Posts: 241
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2003 5:01 pm
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"Martha Bridegam" <mabjo DeleteThis @pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3EFF460E.A527C3ED@pacbell.net...
> Waitaminnit, I'm talking about a friend here whose view of the world seems
to
> be changing in ways that worry me.
Fine. My point (again) is that your worries are your problem, not his, and
that if he gave the matter some consideration he might well see your
attitude towards his job as just as coarse and ignorant as you find his.
Alan. >> Stay informed about: Free Speech and Democracy in SF |
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Since: Jun 28, 2003 Posts: 41
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2003 10:26 pm
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"Martha Bridegam" <mabjo RemoveThis @pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3EFDF19C.5B70A9CF@pacbell.net...
>
>
> But perhaps folks here can answer my real question:
>
> Has "bayle" told the group yet what he did to celebrate Orwell's
> birthday?
>
> /M
>
I'll tell you Martha, since you seem interested, although you probably won't
see it.
Bayle spent some time on Orwell's birthday attempting to get some discussion
going on the newsgroup that bears his name about a subject that is both
Orwell's and Bayle's passion: politics. He failed miserably.
Bayle also mourned the contemporary irrelevance of Orwell (see above).
Contrary to Hitchens, Orwell doesn't matter. The evidence being the level of
discourse conducted by some of his self-appointed heirs on this newsgroup.
Bayle laughed at the fact that a sincere believer proselytized in a modern
Athens, actually suggesting that people with real lives waste their time on
ABGO looking for meaningful discussion and an honest man.
Bayle was reminded, by a vision from the early days of ABGO when it was home
to the professor and his flock, that ABGO resembles nothing so much as a
high school. With its own prom queen and football captain, its own "in
crowd" and even its own school play. (Though admittedly here there might be
a dispute over which is the true high-school drama department.) And even its
own teachers and crazy elders.
Bayle also mused about what a fifth grader could make of 1984, feeling that
the chief merit of Orwell is his maturing in the face of (and while facing)
a nightmarish reality. Something quite beyond those with minimal experience
of life. And a willingness to make tough choices and harsh statements about
issues that, with all due respect, have little to do with locker rooms in
junior high school, despite the conceit intended to allow young people to
believe that they can understand and have a say in a world their elders have
fucked up.
Finally Bayle decided to read a book on Burma in the Second World War. Where
he learned that the father of the currently jailed Burmese Nobel prize
winner was likely the Aung San who was a member of the Thirty Comrades
trained by the Imperial Japanese Army in Japan prior to the invasion of
Burma. What all this means is not clear because he has not finished the book
(thought the web suggests that Aung San changed sides after the Japanese
shafted the Burmese independence movement) and is still attempting to
understand the origins and the players in the current situation in Burma.
But in any case this intellectual occupation has provided much more
informative and interesting than his monitoring of recent activity on ABGO.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Free Speech and Democracy in SF |
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Since: Jun 28, 2003 Posts: 41
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2003 10:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Free Speech and Democracy in SF [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Martha Bridegam" <mabjo RemoveThis @pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3EFDF19C.5B70A9CF@pacbell.net...
>
>
> The problem with "allowing the people to decide" in a suddenly scheduled
> out-of-season recall is that if the voters are abruptly presented with a
> "yes or no" question to answer and a slate of candidates to vote up or
> down, they will do their best to choose fairly, but they will have been
> deprived of the opportunity to scrutinize candidates' claims and
> characters that emerges from the ordinarily drawn-out nominating and
> campaign processes.
>
Isn't this historically the conservative argument that the people can't be
truseted and thus the system must throw up brakes on their impulsive
decisions? What is really at stake here is that Davis would likely lose. So
the pro-democrats have become anti-democrats when they have their own power
to protect.
You are claiming that the people of California, when allowing a recall,
acted unwisely.
>
> Essentially the recall is an attack on civil society itself -- it's an
> attempt to remove essential structures that -- even impefectly, even with
> a certain degree of corruption -- prevent representative democracy from
> deteriorating along a slippery slope into the factitious "democracy" of
> fascism in which a Leader is picked by "unanimous" acclaim without
> discussion of other choices.
How can an true election undermine democracy? If the voters want to retain
Davis they can just vote that way. Your argument is essentially against
accountability, something I thought you fought for. And you have repudiated
Paine and Jefferson and become a friend of Hamilton, Madison and Burke.
"What is liberty without knowledge and virtue?" Burke attacking the French
Revolution.
If Davis was Trent Lott you'd recall him in a San Franciscan minute  <!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Free Speech and Democracy in SF |
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