"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown.RemoveThis@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a748b0ab164487298bc55@news.odyssey.net...
> It seems "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote:
> >Another interesting question from that discussion of Letter 246 about
> >Frodo's guilt at not destroying the Ring.
> >
> >When Frodo and Sam are in Sammath Naur after the Ring has been
> >destroyed, Frodo is quite spent and resigned to his fate. It is Sam
who
> >has to encourage him to get up and move outside. Even then, Frodo's
> >words make clear that he believes the end has come.
> >
> >On the other hand, Sam still searches the sky for signs of rescue.
> >
> >The question is whether Frodo's despair is a bad thing (as say,
compared
> >to Denethor's despair)? Despair is meant to be a bad thing in
Tolkien's
> >world, or so I recall, but can it ever be justified?
>
> I don't know whether I'd describe it as despair, precisely. Frodo
> was utterly weary, after months of privation. And he was high up on
> an active volcano in mid-eruption. Seems to me it was pretty
> rational to think that this was "the end of all things".
Maybe. I do empathize with Frodo's feelings, but I think that you have
to look a bit closer at what Frodo and Sam say.
At the end of the 'Mount Doom' chapter, Frodo says:
"For the Quest is achieved, and now all is over. I am glad you are here
with me. Here at the end of all things, Sam."
Which is clearly Frodo saying that he doesn't think they can escape, and
he is making his peace with himself. I know that Sam reports that
Frodo's eyes showed that the burden had been removed, but it also shows
that Frodo is at peace and is not fearful. Reminiscent of Aragorn's and
the Numenorean habit of embracing death willingly. Being at peace and
giving back the gift.
Which leads me to reconsider my terming it despair. Definitely not
despair in the way Denethor despaired! But still an important moment
that has an impact later on. Would Frodo later regret his willingness to
give up then and not carry on for a bit longer like Sam makes him do?
There is also a story-external reason for finishing the chapter on this
note, which is simply to heighten the dramatic tension for the reader
who thinks that Frodo and Sam are about to die.
Something I hadn't noticed before is the fact that when we next meet
Frodo and Sam in the book, a few pages into 'The Field of Cormallen',
Frodo's lines are REPEATED! I can understand Tolkien doing this, mainly
to make the connection back to the previous scene after a few intense
paragraphs showing what happened at the Black Gate.
Is such repetition of phrases a common literary device? Reminds me of
the fade-out and back that was done in the Peter Jackson film, same
setting, same view of Sam and Frodo passed out on that rock.
Looking more closely at what happens after Frodo's line:
"I am glad you are here with me. Here at the end of all things, Sam."
Sam's reply gently rebukes his master:
"... And the journey's finished. But after coming all that way I don't
want to give up yet. It's not like me somehow, if you understand."
But Frodo's answer is still downhearted. Can we speculate a lingering
effect of the Ring, despite Sam thinking that the old Frodo is back?
"Maybe not Sam, but it's like things are in the world. Hope fails. An
end comes. We have only a little time to wait now. We are lost in ruin
and downfall, and there is no escape."
Pure speculation, but this attitude also reminds me of the "fey,
fell-hearted and heathenish" attitude expressed by Torhthelm in 'The
Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son' at the end of the poem
(ending "doom shall come and dark conquer"). Tidwald's reply is a more
pragmatic response, maybe like Sam's response here:
"Well, Master, we could at least go further from this dangerous place
here, from this Crack of Doom, if that's its name. Now couldn't we?
Come, Mr Frodo, let's go down the path at any rate!
Frodo's reply reinforces the apathy he has sunk into:
"Very well, Sam. If you wish to go, I'll come."
We don't hear from Frodo again until they wake in safety. Sam continues
to express his desire to live:
"What a tale we have been in, Mr Frodo, haven't we? I wish I could hear
it told! ... I wish I could hear it!"
Then the narrator tells us how Sam still looks for rescue:
"But even while he spoke so, to keep the fear away until the very last,
his eyes still strayed north, north into the eye of the wind, to where
the sky far off was clear..."
Most of what Frodo says is understandable, but the real 'red flag' for
me is when Frodo says:
"Hope fails."
I was under the distinct impression that a big theme of Tolkien was that
hope never fails. I would have been interested to see Frodo's reaction
when he wakes up in safety. Unfortunately, unlike the film, we don't see
this in the book, and we see Sam's reaction and Gandalf's laughter.
> Sam on the other hand was completely unrealistic, but fortunately he
> was also correct, beyond hope. 
>
> >Leading on from that, does Frodo's despair and being resigned to
death
> >have any impact on his inability to reintegrate into the Shire,
> >eventually contributing to his desire to sail West and be healed?
> >
> >Conversely, does Sam's refusal to despair, help him regain a normal
> >life?
>
> No, I don't think either of those is the case.
So you don't think that having to adjust to life again after resigning
yourself to death is difficult to do? You don't think it could have had
some effect? I would have thought that a near-death experience would
totally change a person's outlook on life. It is commonly reported that
those who faced death and survived say that they appreciate life a lot
more afterwards. Combined with the effect of the Ring, this may have
made Frodo's torment all the more acute. I think people tend to
overestimate the physical impact of Frodo's wounds, and underestimate
the impact of the mental torment he must have suffered.
Christopher
--
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Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
>> Stay informed about: Frodo's despair on Mount Doom 
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