Why doesn't Gandalf use more magic?

Tolkien explicitly stated he wanted to keep magic subdued, subtle, and to a
bare minimum; I believe that is sufficient reason.

"www.ChantCD.com" <mcdevitt76_at_hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10hf88m4l9mpbb8@corp.supernews.com...
 > I know there's a good reason (and it's not good to overdo magic, such as
you
 > find in Harry Potter)
 >
 > But what is the reason?
 >
 > Matthew
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't Gandalf use more magic? 

Quoth "www.ChantCD.com" <mcdevitt76_at_hotmail.com> in article
<10hf88m4l9mpbb8.RemoveThis@corp.supernews.com>:
 > I know there's a good reason (and it's not good to overdo magic,
 > such as you find in Harry Potter)

 > But what is the reason?

What kind of magic might you expect to see Gandalf do? I can't really
think of that many examples, really:

* Lighting various fires (pine cones, etc.), perhaps including the
glow of his staff in the dark.

* Various lightning-like bolts, used against the Nazgul on
Weathertop and the Pelennor fields.

* Various attempts to seal shut the back door of the Chamber of
Mazarbul.

* Breaking the Bridge of Khazad-dum.

* Calling Saruman back and breaking his staff.

(His occasional apparent use of "telepathy" isn't really "magic" in
Middle-earth. And I've left out things like his fireworks and
interactions with the West Gate of Moria because they seem more
"technological" to me.) I'm sure I've left out a few, but don't think
the other examples go much beyond these.

So where else might you expect Gandalf to use this sort of magic?
His weariness after attempting to seal the door in Moria suggests that
using magic (at least the high-power stuff) really takes a lot out of
him, so I'm not surprised that he reserved those lightning bolt things
for particularly nasty enemies like Nazgul.

In the end, magic in Middle-earth is just a lot less "overt" than in
Harry Potter (for example): witness Galadriel's confusion about what
mortals even mean by the term. Wizards dueling with death spells and
fireballs just don't _fit_ in Tolkien's world, any more than Galadriel
would fit at Hogwarts. On some level, that's not even a "reason",
it's just the way those different sub-created worlds seem to work.

    Steuard Jensen<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't Gandalf use more magic? 

sbjensen.RemoveThis@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message news:<v1ORc.13$45.1940@news.uchicago.edu>...
 > Quoth "www.ChantCD.com" <mcdevitt76_at_hotmail.com> in article
 > <10hf88m4l9mpbb8.RemoveThis@corp.supernews.com>:
  > > I know there's a good reason (and it's not good to overdo magic,
  > > such as you find in Harry Potter)
 >
  > > But what is the reason?
 >
 > What kind of magic might you expect to see Gandalf do? I can't really
 > think of that many examples, really:
 >
 > * Lighting various fires (pine cones, etc.), perhaps including the
 > glow of his staff in the dark.
 >
 > * Various lightning-like bolts, used against the Nazgul on
 > Weathertop and the Pelennor fields.
 >
 > * Various attempts to seal shut the back door of the Chamber of
 > Mazarbul.
 >
 > * Breaking the Bridge of Khazad-dum.
 >
 > * Calling Saruman back and breaking his staff.
 >
 > (His occasional apparent use of "telepathy" isn't really "magic" in
 > Middle-earth. And I've left out things like his fireworks and
 > interactions with the West Gate of Moria because they seem more
 > "technological" to me.) I'm sure I've left out a few, but don't think
 > the other examples go much beyond these.
 >
 > So where else might you expect Gandalf to use this sort of magic?
 > His weariness after attempting to seal the door in Moria suggests that
 > using magic (at least the high-power stuff) really takes a lot out of
 > him, so I'm not surprised that he reserved those lightning bolt things
 > for particularly nasty enemies like Nazgul.
 >
 > In the end, magic in Middle-earth is just a lot less "overt" than in
 > Harry Potter (for example): witness Galadriel's confusion about what
 > mortals even mean by the term. Wizards dueling with death spells and
 > fireballs just don't _fit_ in Tolkien's world,


I've never read such utter nonsense from you, S Jensen. Go away and
think about it and realize that they do! Big time! I always thought
LotR to be quite magical and "fantastical" compared to a lot of modern
fantasy like Tad Williams and Mike Scott Rohan (that's not a negative
jibe, MSR, just an observation).<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't Gandalf use more magic? 

"www.ChantCD.com" <mcdevitt76_at_hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10hf88m4l9mpbb8@corp.supernews.com...
 > I know there's a good reason (and it's not good to overdo magic, such as
you
 > find in Harry Potter)
 >
 > But what is the reason?
 >
 > Matthew

Gandalf and the other 4 wizards were not men but Istari, kind of like an
angel, sent by the Valar to Middle Earth to contest Sauron. There were
constrain from using their powers to dominate or rule the peoples of Middle
earth by force or fear, nor were they allowed to match Sauron's power with
power. Their roles were to be advisors and teachers, preparing the people
of ME to defend themselves against Sauron. See book III (RotK) page 455,
"The Third Age," 2nd and 3rd paragraphs.

At the bridge of Khazad-dum, Gandalf could use his full power since he face
an evil (the Balrog) that was not of Sauron's making. When he was sent back
to ME after the battle, many of the constraints on his powers were lifted.
That is why he could become the White Rider, and a war leader (IMO).

Moreover he WAS ready to contest with powers with the Witch King (Nazgul
leader) at the broken gates of Minas Tirith, before the Witch King turned
away to face the Rohan, and Gandalf left to save Faramir. After that there
was little need for Gandalf to use his full powers until the Battle before
the Black Gates, and little of that Battle is actually described, and that
is mostly from the view point of a hobbit. Gandalf could have been throwing
lighten bolts and fireballs left and right.

Once Sauron was defeated, Gandalf had no need or justification to use his
powers anymore, he just lingered in middle earth for a couple of years then
returned over the sea to the West from which he originally came.

Nuki Mouse
--
"This is just my opinion, I maybe wrong" D. Miller
"Defend free speech! Read a banned book today!" unknown.
"I may not like what you say, but I will defend your right to say it with
my Life" Voltaire<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't Gandalf use more magic? 

Chris Wright wrote:
 > Tolkien explicitly stated he wanted to keep magic subdued, subtle, and to a
 > bare minimum; I believe that is sufficient reason.

Also within the context of the plot, Gandalph wished to get the free
peoples of M.E. to dig into their own hearts and be courageous. If all
he did was do magic, everyone would depend on him to do things. That was
not his mission.

Bob Kolker<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't Gandalf use more magic? 

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:07:37 -0500,
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ChantCD.com" target="_blank">www.ChantCD.com</a> <> wrote:
 > I know there's a good reason (and it's not good to overdo magic, such as you
 > find in Harry Potter)
 >
 > But what is the reason?

Because it's a different book?

--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca RemoveThis @hotmail.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't Gandalf use more magic? 

If you doubt what he's saying, just watch Harry Potter (any of them) then
watch LOTR - quite a difference in the prominence of magic in daily life.

Matthew


  >> In the end, magic in Middle-earth is just a lot less "overt" than in
  >> Harry Potter (for example): witness Galadriel's confusion about what
  >> mortals even mean by the term. Wizards dueling with death spells and
  >> fireballs just don't _fit_ in Tolkien's world,
 >
 >
 > I've never read such utter nonsense from you, S Jensen. Go away and
 > think about it and realize that they do! Big time! I always thought
 > LotR to be quite magical and "fantastical" compared to a lot of modern
 > fantasy like Tad Williams and Mike Scott Rohan (that's not a negative
 > jibe, MSR, just an observation).<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't Gandalf use more magic? 

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:07:37 -0500, "www.ChantCD.com"
<mcdevitt76_at_hotmail.com> wrote:

 >I know there's a good reason (and it's not good to overdo magic, such as you
 >find in Harry Potter)
 >
 >But what is the reason?

When Tolkien wrote his books, personal computers had not been invented, and
Tolkien therefore had no experience of computer games, in which characters
have "powers".

--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: hayesmstw.RemoveThis@hotmail.com
Web: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm</a>
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't Gandalf use more magic? 

"www.ChantCD.com" <hormel77.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<pHURc.99794$8_6.55882@attbi_s04>...
 > If you doubt what he's saying, just watch Harry Potter (any of them) then
 > watch LOTR - quite a difference in the prominence of magic in daily life.
 >

I've never paid the slightest attention to Harry Potter, but what does
it have to do with classic quasi-medieval fantasy? Not much, as far as
I know.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't Gandalf use more magic? 

 >
 > When Tolkien wrote his books, personal computers had not been invented,
and
 > Tolkien therefore had no experience of computer games, in which characters
 > have "powers".
 >
 > --

The same can be said of fantasy role-playing games, and though there were a
few superhero comics around I don't think he would even have seen them, let
alone have been influenced by them.

Actually in Tolkien's world, it's the warriors who seem almost
supernaturally capable. There can have been few warriors of the Middle Ages
or earlier who would have notched up in a lifetime the successes of Legolas
or Gimli in the battle of Helm's Deep. The implausibility of Bormoir being
able to defend Merry and Pippin against so many orcs shows itself in the
film. Similar stories litter Tolkien's works, like Hurin hacking the arms
from around a hundred trolls. Firing a lightning bolt from a staff looks
somewhat like the use of advanced technology and hence in some ways slightly
more believable.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't Gandalf use more magic? 

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ChantCD.com" target="_blank">www.ChantCD.com</a> wrote:
 >
 > I know there's a good reason (and it's not good to overdo magic, such as you
 > find in Harry Potter)
 >
 > But what is the reason?
 >
 > Matthew

Didn't have Broadband in those days.

M.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't Gandalf use more magic? 

"Paul Bolton" <pauljwbolton.RemoveThis@fsmail.net> wrote in message
news:cfa2in$bo5$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
 >
  > >
  > > When Tolkien wrote his books, personal computers had not been invented,
 > and
  > > Tolkien therefore had no experience of computer games, in which
characters
  > > have "powers".
  > >
  > > --
 >
 > The same can be said of fantasy role-playing games, and though there were
a
 > few superhero comics around I don't think he would even have seen them,
let
 > alone have been influenced by them.
 >
 > Actually in Tolkien's world, it's the warriors who seem almost
 > supernaturally capable. There can have been few warriors of the Middle
Ages
 > or earlier who would have notched up in a lifetime the successes of
Legolas
 > or Gimli in the battle of Helm's Deep. The implausibility of Bormoir
being
 > able to defend Merry and Pippin against so many orcs shows itself in the
 > film. Similar stories litter Tolkien's works, like Hurin hacking the arms
 > from around a hundred trolls. Firing a lightning bolt from a staff looks
 > somewhat like the use of advanced technology and hence in some ways
slightly
 > more believable.

Ah, but Middle-earth was a version of the world in which heroic romance was
*true*. Tolkien had many examples of this before him, such as Beowulf,
Roland, El Cid, Arthur, etc., who single-handedly dealt with their enemies
in the same fashion as Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and Boromir. In such stories
"right makes might"--in other words the "good guys" can do these things
*because* they are the "good guys" and the bad guys are less skillful and
lousy shots because they are the bad guys (kind of like an old-fashioned
western, LOL!) This is perfectly in keeping with Tolkien's worldview for
Middle-earth.

As to Gandalf's wizardly powers, they too, are in keeping not with modern
fantasy ideas, but with that of medieval tales. Look at Merlin, for
instance. He does relatively little overt magic ( I think disguising
Arthur's father and putting the sword in the stone was about the extent of
it) Mostly he serves the same role as Gandalf did: an advisor of great
wisdom, and an encourager of great deeds.
Barbara

 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't Gandalf use more magic? 

"aelfwina" <aelfwina.DeleteThis@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:10hht8tk2l9211f@corp.supernews.com...
 >
 > "Paul Bolton" <pauljwbolton.DeleteThis@fsmail.net> wrote in message
 > news:cfa2in$bo5$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
  > >
   > > >
   > > > When Tolkien wrote his books, personal computers had not been
invented,
  > > and
   > > > Tolkien therefore had no experience of computer games, in which
 > characters
   > > > have "powers".
   > > >
   > > > --
  > >
  > > The same can be said of fantasy role-playing games, and though there
were
 > a
  > > few superhero comics around I don't think he would even have seen them,
 > let
  > > alone have been influenced by them.
  > >
  > > Actually in Tolkien's world, it's the warriors who seem almost
  > > supernaturally capable. There can have been few warriors of the Middle
 > Ages
  > > or earlier who would have notched up in a lifetime the successes of
 > Legolas
  > > or Gimli in the battle of Helm's Deep. The implausibility of Bormoir
 > being
  > > able to defend Merry and Pippin against so many orcs shows itself in the
  > > film. Similar stories litter Tolkien's works, like Hurin hacking the
arms
  > > from around a hundred trolls. Firing a lightning bolt from a staff
looks
  > > somewhat like the use of advanced technology and hence in some ways
 > slightly
  > > more believable.
 >
 > Ah, but Middle-earth was a version of the world in which heroic romance
was
 > *true*. Tolkien had many examples of this before him, such as Beowulf,
 > Roland, El Cid, Arthur, etc., who single-handedly dealt with their enemies
 > in the same fashion as Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and Boromir. In such
stories
 > "right makes might"--in other words the "good guys" can do these things
 > *because* they are the "good guys" and the bad guys are less skillful and
 > lousy shots because they are the bad guys (kind of like an old-fashioned
 > western, LOL!) This is perfectly in keeping with Tolkien's worldview for
 > Middle-earth.
 >
 > As to Gandalf's wizardly powers, they too, are in keeping not with modern
 > fantasy ideas, but with that of medieval tales. Look at Merlin, for
 > instance. He does relatively little overt magic ( I think disguising
 > Arthur's father and putting the sword in the stone was about the extent of
 > it) Mostly he serves the same role as Gandalf did: an advisor of great
 > wisdom, and an encourager of great deeds.
 > Barbara

Even Merlin's magic could have as easily been accomplished by trickery as by
magick; disguising Uther and sneaking him into Tintagel need not require
magic, after all.

Merlin is the perfect Gandalf analog, though; in tales such as that, one
isn't a Wizard for the purpose of having magic spells; one is a Wizard
because that's what you *are* when you're *old* and *wise* and
*knowledgeable* in the secrets of the world; magic and power are just
side-effects of the above.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't Gandalf use more magic?