Why was Gandalf resurrected?

"LoadHawg" <not.RemoveThis@chance.com> wrote in message
news:95klt0d9dlrokr3uv9gs74sk460243n737@4ax.com...
 >
 > Why exactly was Gandalf resurrected? A) his all important final
 > project was unfinished and still required his aid. B) Saruman had gone
 > over no longer being a good guy. C) Other? (Sauron still alive
 > etc...?)

(D) All of the above.
Barbara
 >
 >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why was Gandalf resurrected? 

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:21:13 -0600, "aelfwina" <aelfwina.DeleteThis@cableone.net>
wrote:
 >
 >(D) All of the above.
 >Barbara

So it was a combo of all 3 TOGETHER not any one by itself that was the
overriding reason?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why was Gandalf resurrected? 

LoadHawg <not.RemoveThis@chance.com> wrote:
: On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:21:13 -0600, "aelfwina" <aelfwina.RemoveThis@cableone.net>
: wrote:
:>
:>(D) All of the above.
:>Barbara

: So it was a combo of all 3 TOGETHER not any one by itself that was the
: overriding reason?

According to Tolkien, Gandalf's willingness to sacrifice
himself and Gandalf's trust that things would work out without him
had a big part in Eru deciding to bring him back.

Stephen
 >> Stay informed about: Why was Gandalf resurrected? 

stephen DeleteThis @nomail.com <stephen DeleteThis @nomail.com> wrote:
 > LoadHawg <not DeleteThis @chance.com> wrote:
  >> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:21:13 -0600, "aelfwina" <aelfwina DeleteThis @cableone.net>
  >> wrote:
   >>>
   >>> (D) All of the above.
   >>> Barbara
 >
  >> So it was a combo of all 3 TOGETHER not any one by itself that was
  >> the overriding reason?
 >
 > According to Tolkien, Gandalf's willingness to sacrifice
 > himself and Gandalf's trust that things would work out without him
 > had a big part in Eru deciding to bring him back.

Hold on. This doesn't quite work.

Gandalf trusted that things would work out without him, right? Wouldn't
he be a bit annoyed to be told that he is wrong, that he _is_ needed? Is
the assumption here that Gandalf's sacrifice was meaningful in the sense
that without intervention by Eru, Gandalf/Olorin would have probably
been unable to reincarnate and be effectively 'dead' for the rest of
Arda (or at least a very long time - by which time Sauron would have
won)?

So Gandalf trusts that Eru will do _something_ to make things OK, but
not necessarily involving ressurecting Gandalf. That begs two questions:

1) What alternative plan would Eru have had (say if the damage to
Gandalf was more than expected and he needed a few Ages recuperating in
Lorien - those gardens in Aman)?

2) How would the Fellowship have fared without Gandalf the White or
indeed without Eru's Plan B (the answer to [1])? How crucial _was_
Gandalf the White to the eventual success?

Christopher

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Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
: stephen.DeleteThis@nomail.com <stephen.DeleteThis@nomail.com> wrote:
:> LoadHawg <not.DeleteThis@chance.com> wrote:
:>> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:21:13 -0600, "aelfwina" <aelfwina.DeleteThis@cableone.net>
:>> wrote:
:>>>
:>>> (D) All of the above.
:>>> Barbara
:>
:>> So it was a combo of all 3 TOGETHER not any one by itself that was
:>> the overriding reason?
:>
:> According to Tolkien, Gandalf's willingness to sacrifice
:> himself and Gandalf's trust that things would work out without him
:> had a big part in Eru deciding to bring him back.

: Hold on. This doesn't quite work.

Talk to Tolkien. It's his world. From Letter #156
  "Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway
  (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was
  for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his
  companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since
  he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more,
  since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity
  to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was
  the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron
  successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing
  over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving
  up personal hope of success."

: Gandalf trusted that things would work out without him, right? Wouldn't
: he be a bit annoyed to be told that he is wrong, that he _is_ needed? Is
: the assumption here that Gandalf's sacrifice was meaningful in the sense
: that without intervention by Eru, Gandalf/Olorin would have probably
: been unable to reincarnate and be effectively 'dead' for the rest of
: Arda (or at least a very long time - by which time Sauron would have
: won)?

: So Gandalf trusts that Eru will do _something_ to make things OK, but
: not necessarily involving ressurecting Gandalf. That begs two questions:

: 1) What alternative plan would Eru have had (say if the damage to
: Gandalf was more than expected and he needed a few Ages recuperating in
: Lorien - those gardens in Aman)?

: 2) How would the Fellowship have fared without Gandalf the White or
: indeed without Eru's Plan B (the answer to [1])? How crucial _was_
: Gandalf the White to the eventual success?

Eru could do whatever. Gandalf had no way of knowing what Eru
might do, and he surely did not have the gall to think that Eru
would miraculously pluck him out of reality and return him
with renewed strength. That had never happened before, and
was contrary to the natural order. Personally I think you are missing
the point of Tolkien's explanation.

With regard to your question 2, Frodo and Sam completed
the quest largely on their own. Gandalf helped Frodo on Amon Hen,
so something else would have had to happen there. Attacking the
Black Gate and generally keeping Sauron's gaze preoccupied
is the other assistance given to Frodo, but there are lots
of possible ways for that to have happened.

Stephen<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why was Gandalf resurrected? 

stephen.TakeThisOut@nomail.com <stephen.TakeThisOut@nomail.com> wrote:
 > Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
  >> stephen.TakeThisOut@nomail.com <stephen.TakeThisOut@nomail.com> wrote:
   >>> LoadHawg <not.TakeThisOut@chance.com> wrote:
   >>>> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:21:13 -0600, "aelfwina"
   >>>> <aelfwina.TakeThisOut@cableone.net> wrote:
   >>>>>
   >>>>> (D) All of the above.
   >>>>> Barbara
   >>>
   >>>> So it was a combo of all 3 TOGETHER not any one by itself that was
   >>>> the overriding reason?
   >>>
   >>> According to Tolkien, Gandalf's willingness to sacrifice
   >>> himself and Gandalf's trust that things would work out without him
   >>> had a big part in Eru deciding to bring him back.
 >
  >> Hold on. This doesn't quite work.
 >
 > Talk to Tolkien. It's his world. From Letter #156
 > "Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway
 > (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was
 > for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his
 > companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since
 > he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more,
 > since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity
 > to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was
 > the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron
 > successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing
 > over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving
 > up personal hope of success."
 >
  >> Gandalf trusted that things would work out without him, right?
  >> Wouldn't he be a bit annoyed to be told that he is wrong, that he
  >> _is_ needed?

Maybe I misphrased this. I guess I'm thinking that Gandalf would be very
_surprised_ to be chosen to carry on with his task.

  >> Is the assumption here that Gandalf's sacrifice was
  >> meaningful in the sense that without intervention by Eru,
  >> Gandalf/Olorin would have probably been unable to reincarnate and be
  >> effectively 'dead' for the rest of Arda (or at least a very long
  >> time - by which time Sauron would have won)?
 >
  >> So Gandalf trusts that Eru will do _something_ to make things OK, but
  >> not necessarily involving ressurecting Gandalf. That begs two
  >> questions:
 >
  >> 1) What alternative plan would Eru have had (say if the damage to
  >> Gandalf was more than expected and he needed a few Ages recuperating
  >> in Lorien - those gardens in Aman)?
 >
  >> 2) How would the Fellowship have fared without Gandalf the White or
  >> indeed without Eru's Plan B (the answer to [1])? How crucial _was_
  >> Gandalf the White to the eventual success?
 >
 > Eru could do whatever. Gandalf had no way of knowing what Eru
 > might do, and he surely did not have the gall to think that Eru
 > would miraculously pluck him out of reality and return him
 > with renewed strength. That had never happened before, and
 > was contrary to the natural order.

Yes. I agree with you.

 > Personally I think you are missing
 > the point of Tolkien's explanation.

Really? Maybe I should follow your suggestion and talk to Tolkien.

 > With regard to your question 2, Frodo and Sam completed
 > the quest largely on their own. Gandalf helped Frodo on Amon Hen,
 > so something else would have had to happen there. Attacking the
 > Black Gate and generally keeping Sauron's gaze preoccupied
 > is the other assistance given to Frodo, but there are lots
 > of possible ways for that to have happened.

Though in the event, I think there are a lot of things that can be
pointed to that Gandalf did as Gandalf the White, which were crucial to
the whole story. The distraction was continual from the moment Gandalf
returned and orchestrated the resistance to Sauron.

Christopher

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 >> Stay informed about: Why was Gandalf resurrected? 

Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
: stephen.DeleteThis@nomail.com <stephen.DeleteThis@nomail.com> wrote:
:> Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
:>> stephen.DeleteThis@nomail.com <stephen.DeleteThis@nomail.com> wrote:
:>>> LoadHawg <not.DeleteThis@chance.com> wrote:
:>>>> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:21:13 -0600, "aelfwina"
:>>>> <aelfwina.DeleteThis@cableone.net> wrote:
:>>>>>
:>>>>> (D) All of the above.
:>>>>> Barbara
:>>>
:>>>> So it was a combo of all 3 TOGETHER not any one by itself that was
:>>>> the overriding reason?
:>>>
:>>> According to Tolkien, Gandalf's willingness to sacrifice
:>>> himself and Gandalf's trust that things would work out without him
:>>> had a big part in Eru deciding to bring him back.
:>
:>> Hold on. This doesn't quite work.
:>
:> Talk to Tolkien. It's his world. From Letter #156
:> "Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway
:> (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was
:> for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his
:> companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since
:> he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more,
:> since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity
:> to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was
:> the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron
:> successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing
:> over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving
:> up personal hope of success."
:>
:>> Gandalf trusted that things would work out without him, right?
:>> Wouldn't he be a bit annoyed to be told that he is wrong, that he
:>> _is_ needed?

: Maybe I misphrased this. I guess I'm thinking that Gandalf would be very
: _surprised_ to be chosen to carry on with his task.

I am sure Gandalf was surprised and pleased that he was chosen
to carry on with his task. He wanted to complete his task,
but he chose to give up personal hope of success by fighting
the Balrog, according to Tolkien.

<snip>

:>
:>> So Gandalf trusts that Eru will do _something_ to make things OK, but
:>> not necessarily involving ressurecting Gandalf. That begs two
:>> questions:
:>
:>> 1) What alternative plan would Eru have had (say if the damage to
:>> Gandalf was more than expected and he needed a few Ages recuperating
:>> in Lorien - those gardens in Aman)?
:>
:>> 2) How would the Fellowship have fared without Gandalf the White or
:>> indeed without Eru's Plan B (the answer to [1])? How crucial _was_
:>> Gandalf the White to the eventual success?
:>
:> Eru could do whatever. Gandalf had no way of knowing what Eru
:> might do, and he surely did not have the gall to think that Eru
:> would miraculously pluck him out of reality and return him
:> with renewed strength. That had never happened before, and
:> was contrary to the natural order.

: Yes. I agree with you.

Then why did you claim that it 'doesn't quite work'?

:> Personally I think you are missing
:> the point of Tolkien's explanation.

: Really? Maybe I should follow your suggestion and talk to Tolkien.

You were the one claiming it 'doesn't quite work'.

Stephen
 >> Stay informed about: Why was Gandalf resurrected? 

stephen DeleteThis @nomail.com wrote:


 >
 > According to Tolkien, Gandalf's willingness to sacrifice
 > himself and Gandalf's trust that things would work out without him
 > had a big part in Eru deciding to bring him back.
 >
 > Stephen

I never knew for sure how Gandalf re-entered his body. With Olorin
being a Maia powerful enough to be able to assume the forms of the
Children of Illuvatar (or at least the Eldar) seemingly at will, why
would he need Eru's help/permission?

Was Eru the one that put Olorin in an honest-to-God mortal body, or
did he do that himself? I seem to remember in U.T. Manwe laying out
the terms of the Istari mission, but I don't remember the Valar
asking for Eru's help or permission to proceed.

If Olorin created his own body, why would Eru be needed to return him
to it once it was badly damaged? If Eru created the body for him
(perhaps to stop him inaverdently "enhancing" it), what was the case
with Melian? Was Eru involved there as well, or was Melian different
because her body was not mortal?

Best,

--
Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband
ancalagon.the.black DeleteThis @virgin.net<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why was Gandalf resurrected? 

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 01:52:46 +0000, in rec.arts.books.tolkien
Ancalagon The Black <ancalagon.the.black.DeleteThis@virgin.net> wrote:
 >
 >I never knew for sure how Gandalf re-entered his body. With Olorin
 >being a Maia powerful enough to be able to assume the forms of the
<<<sneeerrrppp>>>
 >with Melian? Was Eru involved there as well, or was Melian different
 >because her body was not mortal?
 >
Through the hole in the top of his head, clearly visible, although
covered with stringy white wig, in the depiction of Gandalf in Peter
Jackson's Most Excellent and Accurate Trilogy ("We only changed the
plot and characterizations for overwhelming cinematic reasons --
Money!") of The Lord of The Rings.

Uh,....

Money and Whim!

Uh ....

Money, Whim and The Long Pen of Philipa Boyens!

Ugh....

(No one *expects* the Spanish Inquisition!)

Money, Whim, The Long Pen of Philipa Boyens and Threats of Violets!


the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat@pobox.com
--
Drugs cause amnesia and other things I can't remember...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why was Gandalf resurrected? 

stephen.DeleteThis@nomail.com <stephen.DeleteThis@nomail.com> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> stephen.DeleteThis@nomail.com <stephen.DeleteThis@nomail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>>> Eru could do whatever. Gandalf had no way of knowing what Eru
>>> might do, and he surely did not have the gall to think that Eru
>>> would miraculously pluck him out of reality and return him
>>> with renewed strength. That had never happened before, and
>>> was contrary to the natural order.
>
>> Yes. I agree with you.
>
> Then why did you claim that it 'doesn't quite work'?

I changed my mind. Probably due to this discussion. The thing that
caught my attention was the (seeming) discrepancy in your statement:

"According to Tolkien, Gandalf's willingness to sacrifice himself and
Gandalf's trust that things would work out without him had a big part in
Eru deciding to bring him back."

Specifically the discrepancy between saying that Gandalf trusted that
things would work out without him, and then Eru deciding to return
Gandalf again in order to get things to work (if this was indeed the
motivation behind Eru returning Gandalf).

Maybe the real question I needed to ask was whether _Eru_ thought that
returning Gandalf was essential for things to work out. Which is another
way of saying the original question that the OP posed: "Why was Gandalf
resurrected?" (but asking it from Eru's POV).

Or of saying: What did Eru want Gandalf to do?

Also, as well as being surprised, maybe Gandalf felt entrusted with an
immense responsibility. It must be very difficult to balance a faith
that says to you that you can sacrifice yourself (as Gandalf did),
balancing that with the sense of responsibility that you have to survive
and keep things going to achieve something like a satisfactory ending
(the downfall of Sauron).

Christopher

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 >> Stay informed about: Why was Gandalf resurrected? 

Ancalagon The Black <ancalagon.the.black DeleteThis @virgin.net> wrote:
: stephen DeleteThis @nomail.com wrote:


:>
:> According to Tolkien, Gandalf's willingness to sacrifice
:> himself and Gandalf's trust that things would work out without him
:> had a big part in Eru deciding to bring him back.
:>
:> Stephen

: I never knew for sure how Gandalf re-entered his body. With Olorin
: being a Maia powerful enough to be able to assume the forms of the
: Children of Illuvatar (or at least the Eldar) seemingly at will, why
: would he need Eru's help/permission?

: Was Eru the one that put Olorin in an honest-to-God mortal body, or
: did he do that himself? I seem to remember in U.T. Manwe laying out
: the terms of the Istari mission, but I don't remember the Valar
: asking for Eru's help or permission to proceed.

In letters Tolkien states quite specifically what happened to
Gandalf. Originally the Istari were a plan of the Valar and
Eru was not involved. But He chose to personally intervene
when Gandalf "died". To quote Tolkien
  "He [Gandalf] was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or
  governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it,
  at the moment of its failure."

Of course if it was not for the this one letter, the idea that Gandalf
actually left reality and was personally returned by God has little
support in the text. We are told that the Ainur are bound to Ea
for as long as it endures, and Maia do not really "die". It is
also doubtful to me that Tolkien had this in mind when he originally
wrote LOTR. In the original version Gandalf says he "did not pass
through fire and flood" to Wormtongue instead of "fire and death".
I suspect that Tolkien "discovered" what he meant by "out of thought
and time" long after he wrote it.

: If Olorin created his own body, why would Eru be needed to return him
: to it once it was badly damaged? If Eru created the body for him
: (perhaps to stop him inaverdently "enhancing" it), what was the case
: with Melian? Was Eru involved there as well, or was Melian different
: because her body was not mortal?

Melian, like Sauron, created her own body and was under no restrictions.
Eru was not involved directly, although it was clearly all part of
the plan.

Stephen<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why was Gandalf resurrected? 

 >From: LoadHawg not.DeleteThis@chance.com

 >Why exactly was Gandalf resurrected? A) his all important final
 >project was unfinished and still required his aid.
 >B) Saruman had ...

It's A) - Gandalf says so himself when he meets Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli the
first time after his "resurrection":

'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done.'

Leni<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why was Gandalf resurrected? 

On 05 Jan 2005 13:36:38 GMT, mattyline.RemoveThis@aol.com (Leni) wrote:

  >>From: LoadHawg not.RemoveThis@chance.com
 >
  >>Why exactly was Gandalf resurrected? A) his all important final
  >>project was unfinished and still required his aid.
  >>B) Saruman had ...
 >
 >It's A) - Gandalf says so himself when he meets Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli the
 >first time after his "resurrection":
 >
 >'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done.'
 >
 >Leni

thanks

By task is it the task of facilitating the 'current' final mission(s)
of the day - that of A) destroying the ring, 'curing' Theoden, getting
a king back on the throne of Gondor... or B) the over-arcing task of
being a counterbalance to Sauron?

E.g. hypothetically speaking if he'd been somehow killed say back in
the quest for Erebor say in personal battle w/ Smaug... would he have
been resurrected as well? And would other Istari also qualify
(presuming they hadn't gone bad) for the resurrection program in time
of need?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Why was Gandalf resurrected?