Gareth Jones- the anti Duranty -as Farmer Jones

snoop.TakeThisOut@newark.co.uk (Snoop) wrote in message news:<a7f9412f.0403160314.78cadc06.TakeThisOut@posting.google.com>...
 > I checked the Gareth Jones web link, and think that there is a strong
 > possibility he was behind the naming of "Mr Jones - the farmer". There
 > is also a link from there to Orwelltoday.com (
 > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.orwelltoday.com/garethjonesacademic.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.orwelltoday.com/garethjonesacademic.shtml</a>) which also
 > argues the point well.
 >
 > The poem "Was Smith? Was Jones? Were you?" is from 'Why I write' -
 > where Orwell says he wrote it in late 1935 at the time he chose to
 > concentrate on political writings and this coincides with Gareth
 > Jones' murder by bandits in North China - which made worldwide news
 > for two weeks in August 1935. Orwell would have put 2+2=5 and
 > remembered Jones' famine exposing stories, which he was denigrated by
 > Duranty and the whole of the Moscow coterie of foreign correpondents -
 > see Eugene Lyons "Assignment in Moscow" - where they colluded to damn
 > Jones as a liar.
 >
 > Orwell knew Lyon's book and also Muggeridge's 1934 "Winter in Moscow"
 > where Jones is the 'hero' Wilfred Pye, before writing Animal Farm, so
 > must have thought that Jones was murdered by the NKVD for daring to
 > tell the truth about the Ukrainian famine.

Thanks for all this. It's nice to see a few fresh posters around here.
Conquest touches on the Jones/Duranty episode in "Harvest of Sorrow"
as well, but I'd never read much about it. He also mentions that
Duranty saw "piles of wheat in the open air guarded by Stalin's
soldiers" in the midst of famine--a bit of evidence, naturally, he
never bothered to report in the NYT. No wonder Muggeridge called him
"the greatest liar of any journalist I have ever met in fifty years of
journalism," (Harvest of Sorrow, 319-320) Does Duranty still have that
1932 Pulitzer? I know they were trying to take it away, but can't
remember how all that ended up. I can't believe they'd let a pig like
him keep it--but then again, Kissinger still has a Nobel Peace Prize.

Thanks for bringing up the Orwell connections to that episode.

JV<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Gareth Jones- the anti Duranty -as Farmer Jones 

When did Orwell write that poem and when was Gareth Jones assassinated?
 >> Stay informed about: Gareth Jones- the anti Duranty -as Farmer Jones 

selene1022 wrote:

 > snoop RemoveThis @newark.co.uk (Snoop) wrote in message news:<a7f9412f.0403160314.78cadc06 RemoveThis @posting.google.com>...
  > > I checked the Gareth Jones web link, and think that there is a strong
  > > possibility he was behind the naming of "Mr Jones - the farmer". There
  > > is also a link from there to Orwelltoday.com (
  > > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.orwelltoday.com/garethjonesacademic.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.orwelltoday.com/garethjonesacademic.shtml</a>) which also
  > > argues the point well.
  > >
  > > The poem "Was Smith? Was Jones? Were you?" is from 'Why I write' -
  > > where Orwell says he wrote it in late 1935 at the time he chose to
  > > concentrate on political writings and this coincides with Gareth
  > > Jones' murder by bandits in North China - which made worldwide news
  > > for two weeks in August 1935. Orwell would have put 2+2=5 and
  > > remembered Jones' famine exposing stories, which he was denigrated by
  > > Duranty and the whole of the Moscow coterie of foreign correpondents -
  > > see Eugene Lyons "Assignment in Moscow" - where they colluded to damn
  > > Jones as a liar.
  > >
  > > Orwell knew Lyon's book and also Muggeridge's 1934 "Winter in Moscow"
  > > where Jones is the 'hero' Wilfred Pye, before writing Animal Farm, so
  > > must have thought that Jones was murdered by the NKVD for daring to
  > > tell the truth about the Ukrainian famine.
 >
 > Thanks for all this. It's nice to see a few fresh posters around here.
 > Conquest touches on the Jones/Duranty episode in "Harvest of Sorrow"
 > as well, but I'd never read much about it. He also mentions that
 > Duranty saw "piles of wheat in the open air guarded by Stalin's
 > soldiers" in the midst of famine--a bit of evidence, naturally, he
 > never bothered to report in the NYT. No wonder Muggeridge called him
 > "the greatest liar of any journalist I have ever met in fifty years of
 > journalism," (Harvest of Sorrow, 319-320) Does Duranty still have that
 > 1932 Pulitzer? I know they were trying to take it away, but can't
 > remember how all that ended up. I can't believe they'd let a pig like
 > him keep it--but then again, Kissinger still has a Nobel Peace Prize.
 >
 > Thanks for bringing up the Orwell connections to that episode.
 >
 > JV

....and Moyehoist wrote:

 > When did Orwell write that poem and when was Gareth Jones assassinated?

If it helps, the poem, "A happy vicar I might have been" was published in the Adelphi in December 1936.

But Orwell in 1936 was not so attentively, ferociously anti-Communist as to base his use of a very
common name, "Jones," on the death of an obscure figure in China. Furthermore, "Was Smith? Was Jones?
Were you?" uses two classically bland common names. It's like saying "Tom, Dick and Harry."

It's true, the poem does complain about commissars, but this was before Orwell went to Spain, and in
Spain it sounds as though he had no particular objection to the Communists until they began violently
objecting to him and his friends. Actually he had tried first to get credentials to go from Harry
Pollitt of the British CP and it was Pollitt who refused, forcing him to go to the ILP for credentials
instead.

As for comments about egg-breaking, was it really Duranty who coined the "you can't break an omelet
without breaking eggs" line? Wasn't it a fairly widespread cliche?


Dunno. Duranty was evidently a shit but when you start retroactively undoing Pulitzers it seems too much
like the memory hole -- some better or more honest writer or one who you yourself happen to support
could be next for retroactive degradation. I think the Jones interpretations, at least re the early
poem, are a bit of a stretch.

Also, while it might be a help if someone wants to explain more about Gareth Jones, that "orwelltoday"
site is a weird, scary place and not a source I would trust. See
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3F6511C6.2057E06F%40pacbell.net> and the surrounding thread.

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Gareth Jones- the anti Duranty -as Farmer Jones 

Martha Bridegam <bridegam.DeleteThis@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<40573634.5C34FB79.DeleteThis@pacbell.net>...
 > selene1022 wrote:
 >
  >> Dunno. Duranty was evidently a shit but when you start
retroactively undoing Pulitzers it seems too much
 > like the memory hole -- some better or more honest writer or one who you yourself happen to support
 > could be next for retroactive degradation.

I can't believe that "memory hole" would be used in such an
intellectually dishonest manner in a forum dedicated to George Orwell.
Why the fuck do you think Orwell wrote 1984 in the first place?

This isn't the case of an honest writer losing a prize because the
political climate has changed. Duranty was a liar and a shill for one
of history's greatest mass murderers. His reportage has been proven to
be a lie, and a vicious one that not only tried to bolster Stalin, but
to discredit truth tellers like Jones and Muggeridge--kind of like
what happened to Orwell after Spain. The only memory hole I can see is
the one created by apologists for the pathetic hypocricy, immorality,
and intellectual dishonesty of the bulk of "vanguard" left wing
intellectuals in the 30s, 40s and 50s. One of the only ways this
injustice can be addressed is to set the historical record straight,
not much, but at least it is something. Duranty should have the prize
revoked. They voted not to, using the same unbelievably lame argument
you have just presented, even considering a mountain of factual
evidence proving that Duranty was one of the century's greatest
journalistic disgraces. The Pulitzer prize didn't mean much to me
before, now it means absolutely nothing.

JV

 >I think the Jones interpretations, at least re the early
 > poem, are a bit of a stretch.
 >
 > Also, while it might be a help if someone wants to explain more about Gareth Jones, that "orwelltoday"
 > site is a weird, scary place and not a source I would trust. See
 > <http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3F6511C6.2057E06F%40pacbell.net> and the surrounding thread.
 >
 > /M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Gareth Jones- the anti Duranty -as Farmer Jones 

Moyehoist wrote:

 > When did Orwell write that poem and when was Gareth Jones assassinated?

You're from the crane company owned by the Mr. Chelak who is distributing
the Gareth Jones book, right?
<http://www.hoistdepot.com/>
<http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2003/490326.shtml>
<http://www.uanews.tv/archives/books/jones-book1.htm>

Congratulations on that crane donation to New York City. That was a nice
gesture.

And Mr. Chelak is working on the campaign to revoke the Duranty Pulitzer,
then?
<http://www.brama.com/survey/messages/23158.html>
<http://www.ukrainiansandiego.com/030620whatshellido.asp>

Reading a little more about Jones it sounds like he was a valiant witness.
No bad reflection on Jones intended when I say I'm just not convinced
there's any historical Orwell connection, though there might in fact be an
affinity between the two writers.

For what it's worth, there's no Gareth Jones in the Orwell Complete Works
index, tho that index for all its 200 pages is a quirky creature.

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Gareth Jones- the anti Duranty -as Farmer Jones 

Its been difficult to pin down the publication date of the poem - martha, do
you concur with 1935 ? any ideas out there of the actual date it was written?

I'm not sure that Jones is a common english name . - Are there any other common
names repeated in 3 of GO's principal works - I think runnerup is Smith at two.
 >> Stay informed about: Gareth Jones- the anti Duranty -as Farmer Jones 

Moyehoist wrote:

 > Its been difficult to pin down the publication date of the poem - martha, do
 > you concur with 1935 ? any ideas out there of the actual date it was written?

I don't know any more than you do about the period of composition, but the
publication date is definitely December 1936. As you've already noted, he mentions
1935 in connection with the poem in the 1946 essay, "Why I Write":


"....but these eperiences were not enough to give me an accurate political
orientation. Then came Hitler, the Spanish civil war, etc. By the end of 1935 I
had still failed to reach a firm decision. I remember the last three stanzas of a
little poem that I wrote at that date, expressing my dilemma:

I am the worm who never turned,
The eunuch without a harem;
Between the priest and the commissar
I walk like Eugene Aram;

And the commissar is telling my fortune
While the radio plays,
But the priest has promised an Austin Seven,
For Duggie always pays.

I dreamed I dwelt in marble halls,
And woke to find it true;
I wasn't born for an age like this;
Was Smith? Was Jones? Were you?

The Spanish war and other events in 1936-7 turned the scale and thereafter I knew
where I stood. Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been
written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic
Socialism, as I understand it..."

And there, yes, he does seem to be saying that he wrote the poem before making up
his mind about politics & that he definitely made up his mind in 1936.

 >
 >
 > I'm not sure that Jones is a common english name

Well, really it's a common Welsh name. For example, there's a business directory
for the city of Cardiff, Wales at
<http://www.touchcardiff.com/comdir/BusinessSearchResults.cfm> and if you enter
"Jones" under "Business Name" you get 320 responses. Admittedly some of these are
plays on words, e.g. "Stones Jones," but the number of results for "Smith" on the
same search engine is only 60.

I presumed it was also reasonably common in England -- it certainly seems so in
the U.S., e.g. through the expression, "Keeping up with the Joneses."

The London business directory at
<http://www.londonis.net/business/search_simple.php3> only produces 7 businesses
with "Jones" in the name compared with 15 for Smith. Another business directory I
tried & have now lost the address of produced 10 results for Jones but I think it
was 58 for Smith.

And then there's Tom Jones and Terry Jones and Bridget Jones....

We seem to be short of Londoners right now but could someone in England settle
this for us?



 > . - Are there any other common
 > names repeated in 3 of GO's principal works - I think runnerup is Smith at two.

That's a really good question. A stumper as of this minute but you've come to the
right place to get it answered.

Anyone else think of a repeated name in Orwell's writing?

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Gareth Jones- the anti Duranty -as Farmer Jones 

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:47:23 GMT, Martha Bridegam <mabjo.RemoveThis@pacbell.net>
wrote:
 >
 >
 >Moyehoist wrote:
 >
  >> Its been difficult to pin down the publication date of the poem - martha, do
  >> you concur with 1935 ? any ideas out there of the actual date it was written?
 >
 >I don't know any more than you do about the period of composition, but the
 >publication date is definitely December 1936. As you've already noted, he mentions
 >1935 in connection with the poem in the 1946 essay, "Why I Write":
 >
 >
 >"....but these eperiences were not enough to give me an accurate political
 >orientation. Then came Hitler, the Spanish civil war, etc. By the end of 1935 I
 >had still failed to reach a firm decision. I remember the last three stanzas of a
 >little poem that I wrote at that date, expressing my dilemma:
 >
 >I am the worm who never turned,
 >The eunuch without a harem;
 >Between the priest and the commissar
 >I walk like Eugene Aram;
 >
 >And the commissar is telling my fortune
 >While the radio plays,
 >But the priest has promised an Austin Seven,
 >For Duggie always pays.
 >
 >I dreamed I dwelt in marble halls,
 >And woke to find it true;
 >I wasn't born for an age like this;
 >Was Smith? Was Jones? Were you?
 >
 >The Spanish war and other events in 1936-7 turned the scale and thereafter I knew
 >where I stood. Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been
 >written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic
 >Socialism, as I understand it..."
 >
 >And there, yes, he does seem to be saying that he wrote the poem before making up
 >his mind about politics & that he definitely made up his mind in 1936.
  >>
  >> I'm not sure that Jones is a common english name
 >
[snip]

 >We seem to be short of Londoners right now but could someone in England settle
 >this for us?
 >
I believe that Jones is the second commonest surname in the UK after
Smith, and not all of those Joneses are Welsh. They are the two
stereotypically average-man names, a bit like John Doe in the US (is
anybody really called John Doe?) I would be extremely surprised if
Orwell's intention in the poem was not to play on that fact. Certainly
no English reader would be likely to start wondering which *actual*
Smith or Jones was meant.

--
Don Aitken

Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Gareth Jones- the anti Duranty -as Farmer Jones 

Don Aitken wrote:

 > ...>We seem to be short of Londoners right now but could someone in England settle
  > >this for us?
  > >
 > I believe that Jones is the second commonest surname in the UK after
 > Smith, and not all of those Joneses are Welsh. They are the two
 > stereotypically average-man names, a bit like John Doe in the US (is
 > anybody really called John Doe?) I would be extremely surprised if
 > Orwell's intention in the poem was not to play on that fact. Certainly
 > no English reader would be likely to start wondering which *actual*
 > Smith or Jones was meant.

I guess it might also be worth mentioning that, although there is no Gareth Jones in
the Orwell Complete Works index, there are 16 other Joneses mentioned there.

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Gareth Jones- the anti Duranty -as Farmer Jones 

Martha wrote:

"And then there's Tom Jones and Terry Jones..," - I'm not sure about Bridgette
Jones but I believe Terry and Tom are Welsh - and that is the point - I would
think by selecting Jones, Orwell had to be cognizant of the fact that this name
has a strong Welsh connotation.
 >> Stay informed about: Gareth Jones- the anti Duranty -as Farmer Jones 

Whats the count in the Complete Index for Smith?
 >> Stay informed about: Gareth Jones- the anti Duranty -as Farmer Jones 

Moyehoist wrote:

 > Whats the count in the Complete Index for Smith?

17 references, plus a reference to Smithfields. Unfortunately it's not a
complete index, just a 200-page slightly eccentric list of references
drawn from the 11 volumes of essays and other short writings.

You've just mentioned something in email correspondence about Orwell
being influenced by the work of Eugene Lyons & therefore being very
likely to know about Gareth Jones' story. Can you explain?

And can you post what you said in email about an association with
Muggeridge?

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Gareth Jones- the anti Duranty -as Farmer Jones 

http://www.llangynfelyn.org/enwau_mynychder.html

had a hard time finding a valid survey of just english surnames but Jones is(
per the above), the overwhelming leading surname of the Welsh.

Orwell who would have been very attuned to surnames since he changed his own.
He would not have picked the number one welsh name to representan english "John
Doe" if he wanted to denote "John Doe". If he wrote the poem just months after
the assassination of Jones in 1935, he put jones in the punchline deliberately
and knowingly. On the face, in classic Orwellian double entendreness , it
appears at first to mean Mr and/or Ms John Doe--but then after the beguiling
Smith, he throws in the Jones zinger.

Lets not forget that at this time Wells thought he was a marked man as was
Trotsky and as was gareth jones. Only recently did gareths great nephew
discover that gareth's "german trading company" host of his last days was in
fact a KGB front.
http://colley.co.uk/garethjones/soviet_articles/purpiss_nkvd.htm

Perhaps Orwell knew this connection back then but could not say so directly .

If there are over a dozen Joneses in the complete works index, how many smiths
are there?
 >> Stay informed about: Gareth Jones- the anti Duranty -as Farmer Jones