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Next: Why didn't the Silmaril scorch Thingol's slayers?
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Since: Feb 23, 2004 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:41 pm
Post subject: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? Archived from groups: rec>arts>books>tolkien (more info?)
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Posted on another forum:
"Tolkien was a rampant Germanophile who was involved with a clique of
like-minded Anglo-Saxons who strived to have all latin words removed
from the English language. (Just like the Nazis attempted). The great
motivation for his silly nonsense seems to have been a hair-brained
attempt to turn the cultured Mediterranean world into the real
barbarians (the 'evil' and swarthy southern people of his books), and
makes the heroes of his stories racially pure Northern Europeans (who,
no surprise happen to speak Anglo-Saxon dialect) with great cities of
marble thousands of years ago, when they were little more than
cavemen. In reality we know, that for a 1000 years these people could
scarcely understand the concept of building more than a firepit of
stone, and instead built hovels of twigs, timber, mud and dung, none
of which survived a generation or two, not to mention virtually total
illiteracy, virtually no metal objects made by themselves, and pottery
so crude it could have been made in kindergarten classes. They
believed in Elves because they saw Celtic, and later, Roman trade
goods they knew could not be made by human hands, and had to be made
by a greater race than they. (That much they got right).
It is a good thing that his great goal was not achieved in his
lifetime, that of making his ridiculous fairy tales the "National Myth
of the English People". If anything, the true National Myth of Britain
might rightfully be that of King Arthur, who is fondly remembered for
his struggle to save Romano-British, Western civilisation from the
invading, barbaric Anglo-Saxon hordes Tolkien idolized. The besieging,
plundering orcs in these stories could easily be the Germannic hordes
that overran Western civilizaton and set world progress back a
millenium. Too bad Rome didn't possess the 'magic' to have the earth
upen up and swallow their 'orc's like those in the film.
It is fortunate the vast majority of people who are enthralled by this
nonsense have no concept it is an attempt to revise European history
with its role reversal of civilization and barbarism. For all they
know, 'Middle Earth' could be on another planet, in a galaxy far, far
away. Let's keep it there."
Thoughts? >> Stay informed about: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? |
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Since: Jan 31, 2004 Posts: 128
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:04 am
Post subject: Re: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 23 Feb 2004 17:41:35 -0800,
Tim O'Neill <scatha.TakeThisOut@bigpond.com> wrote:
> Posted on another forum:
>
> "Tolkien was a rampant Germanophile who was involved with a clique of
> like-minded Anglo-Saxons who strived to have all latin words removed
> from the English language. (Just like the Nazis attempted). The great
> motivation for his silly nonsense seems to have been a hair-brained
> attempt to turn the cultured Mediterranean world into the real
> barbarians (the 'evil' and swarthy southern people of his books), and
> makes the heroes of his stories racially pure Northern Europeans (who,
> no surprise happen to speak Anglo-Saxon dialect) with great cities of
> marble thousands of years ago, when they were little more than
> cavemen. In reality we know, that for a 1000 years these people could
> scarcely understand the concept of building more than a firepit of
> stone, and instead built hovels of twigs, timber, mud and dung, none
> of which survived a generation or two, not to mention virtually total
> illiteracy, virtually no metal objects made by themselves, and pottery
> so crude it could have been made in kindergarten classes. They
> believed in Elves because they saw Celtic, and later, Roman trade
> goods they knew could not be made by human hands, and had to be made
> by a greater race than they. (That much they got right).
>
> It is a good thing that his great goal was not achieved in his
> lifetime, that of making his ridiculous fairy tales the "National Myth
> of the English People". If anything, the true National Myth of Britain
> might rightfully be that of King Arthur, who is fondly remembered for
> his struggle to save Romano-British, Western civilisation from the
> invading, barbaric Anglo-Saxon hordes Tolkien idolized. The besieging,
> plundering orcs in these stories could easily be the Germannic hordes
> that overran Western civilizaton and set world progress back a
> millenium. Too bad Rome didn't possess the 'magic' to have the earth
> upen up and swallow their 'orc's like those in the film.
>
> It is fortunate the vast majority of people who are enthralled by this
> nonsense have no concept it is an attempt to revise European history
> with its role reversal of civilization and barbarism. For all they
> know, 'Middle Earth' could be on another planet, in a galaxy far, far
> away. Let's keep it there."
>
> Thoughts?
Yes, it is written by an idiot.
--
Aaron Clausen
tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? |
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Since: Feb 01, 2004 Posts: 190
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:57 am
Post subject: Re: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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scatha.DeleteThis@bigpond.com (Tim O'Neill) wrote in
news:b9ebd984.0402231741.61de587b@posting.google.com:
> Posted on another forum:
>
> "Tolkien was a rampant Germanophile who was involved with a
> clique of like-minded Anglo-Saxons who strived to have all
> latin words removed from the English language. (Just like
> the Nazis attempted). The great motivation for his silly
> nonsense seems to have been a hair-brained attempt to turn
> the cultured Mediterranean world into the real barbarians
> (the 'evil' and swarthy southern people of his books), and
> makes the heroes of his stories racially pure Northern
> Europeans (who, no surprise happen to speak Anglo-Saxon
> dialect) with great cities of marble thousands of years ago,
> when they were little more than cavemen.
Snipped a bunch of like-minded crap
>
> Thoughts?
Who ever wrote this is biased the other way, perhaps, and is
taking one man's desire to create a mythos for the English (and
a vehicle for his languages) way too seriously and personally.
--
mc<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? |
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Since: Feb 09, 2004 Posts: 13
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:58 am
Post subject: Re: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Tim O'Neill wrote:
>> Posted on another forum:
>>
>> "Tolkien was a rampant Germanophile who was ......
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>>
> I think you have far too much time on your hands.
>
> Peter Hilton - who studied Anglo Saxon under one of Tolkien's former
> students.
>
>
>
--
You can say many things better in French than
in any other language, but you still need to know how.
J. Gould<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? |
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Since: Oct 20, 2003 Posts: 93
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:35 am
Post subject: Re: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> "Tolkien was a rampant Germanophile who was involved with a clique of
> like-minded Anglo-Saxons who strived to have all latin words removed
> from the English language. (Just like the Nazis attempted).
News to me that the Nazis attempted to do anything at all with the English
language.
Tsar Parmathule<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? |
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Since: Oct 23, 2003 Posts: 150
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:54 am
Post subject: Re: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 23 Feb 2004 17:41:35 -0800, scatha RemoveThis @bigpond.com (Tim O'Neill) wrote:
>Posted on another forum:
>
>"Tolkien was a rampant Germanophile who was involved with a clique of
>like-minded Anglo-Saxons who strived to have all latin words removed
>from the English language. (Just like the Nazis attempted). The great
>motivation for his silly nonsense seems to have been a hair-brained
>attempt to turn the cultured Mediterranean world into the real
>barbarians (the 'evil' and swarthy southern people of his books), and
>makes the heroes of his stories racially pure Northern Europeans (who,
>no surprise happen to speak Anglo-Saxon dialect) with great cities of
>marble thousands of years ago, when they were little more than
>cavemen.
<Snip>
>Thoughts?
I think the author, rather than Tolkien, had ingrown scalp hair.
--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: hayesmstw RemoveThis @hotmail.com
Web: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm</a>
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? |
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Since: Dec 12, 2003 Posts: 134
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:46 am
Post subject: Re: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Tim O'Neill wrote:
> Posted on another forum:
>
> "Tolkien was a rampant Germanophile who was involved with a clique of
<snip>
> away. Let's keep it there."
>
> Thoughts?
Yep: Buthead!
(Not you, of course.)
--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
In C we had to code our own bugs. In C++ we can inherit them.
C gives you enough rope to hang yourself. C++ also gives you the tree
object to tie it to.
With C you can shoot yourself in the leg. With C++ you can reuse the
bullet.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? |
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Since: Feb 11, 2004 Posts: 59
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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scatha RemoveThis @bigpond.com (Tim O'Neill) wrote in message news:<b9ebd984.0402231741.61de587b RemoveThis @posting.google.com>...
> Posted on another forum:
>
> "Tolkien was a rampant Germanophile who was involved with a clique of
> like-minded Anglo-Saxons who strived to have all latin words removed
> from the English language. (Just like the Nazis attempted). The great
> motivation for his silly nonsense seems to have been a hair-brained
> attempt to turn the cultured Mediterranean world into the real
> barbarians (the 'evil' and swarthy southern people of his books), and
> makes the heroes of his stories racially pure Northern Europeans (who,
> no surprise happen to speak Anglo-Saxon dialect) with great cities of
> marble thousands of years ago, when they were little more than
> cavemen. In reality we know, that for a 1000 years these people could
> scarcely understand the concept of building more than a firepit of
> stone, and instead built hovels of twigs, timber, mud and dung, none
> of which survived a generation or two, not to mention virtually total
> illiteracy, virtually no metal objects made by themselves, and pottery
> so crude it could have been made in kindergarten classes. They
> believed in Elves because they saw Celtic, and later, Roman trade
> goods they knew could not be made by human hands, and had to be made
> by a greater race than they. (That much they got right).
>
> It is a good thing that his great goal was not achieved in his
> lifetime, that of making his ridiculous fairy tales the "National Myth
> of the English People". If anything, the true National Myth of Britain
> might rightfully be that of King Arthur, who is fondly remembered for
> his struggle to save Romano-British, Western civilisation from the
> invading, barbaric Anglo-Saxon hordes Tolkien idolized. The besieging,
> plundering orcs in these stories could easily be the Germannic hordes
> that overran Western civilizaton and set world progress back a
> millenium. Too bad Rome didn't possess the 'magic' to have the earth
> upen up and swallow their 'orc's like those in the film.
>
> It is fortunate the vast majority of people who are enthralled by this
> nonsense have no concept it is an attempt to revise European history
> with its role reversal of civilization and barbarism. For all they
> know, 'Middle Earth' could be on another planet, in a galaxy far, far
> away. Let's keep it there."
>
> Thoughts?
Does not hold together when subject to facts.
Tolkien pretty much knew all that was left of the English Mythology -
and it was only scraps f text. Nothing was intact. He did the best
he could, but one can never expect much more than an approximation of
what should be.
It is enough to give us some respect for the past works and wsee how
they were comprehensive enough to be called a mythology. I give him
credit for that.
As for the rest of this "analysis" it needs work.
Cut out the paranoid parts.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? |
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Since: Feb 01, 2004 Posts: 22
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Feb 03, 2004 Posts: 71
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <b9ebd984.0402231741.61de587b.RemoveThis@posting.google.com>,
Tim O'Neill <scatha.RemoveThis@bigpond.com> wrote:
>Posted on another forum:
>
>"Tolkien was a rampant Germanophile who was involved with a clique of
>like-minded Anglo-Saxons who strived to have all latin words removed
>from the English language. (Just like the Nazis attempted). The great
>motivation for his silly nonsense seems to have been a hair-brained
>attempt to turn the cultured Mediterranean world into the real
>barbarians (the 'evil' and swarthy southern people of his books), and
>makes the heroes of his stories racially pure Northern Europeans (who,
>no surprise happen to speak Anglo-Saxon dialect) with great cities of
>marble thousands of years ago, when they were little more than
>cavemen. In reality we know, that for a 1000 years these people could
>scarcely understand the concept of building more than a firepit of
>stone, and instead built hovels of twigs, timber, mud and dung, none
>of which survived a generation or two, not to mention virtually total
>illiteracy, virtually no metal objects made by themselves, and pottery
>so crude it could have been made in kindergarten classes. They
>believed in Elves because they saw Celtic, and later, Roman trade
>goods they knew could not be made by human hands, and had to be made
>by a greater race than they. (That much they got right).
Hmmm.... This looks like pure bigotry, an effort to denigrate the
peoples of Northern Europe (who, admittedly, are not the most common
target of this sort of thing). I wonder if the author would have
spoken so poorly of the various peoples of Africa or South America
or Australasia who until recently lived by hunting and gathering,
and erected no buildings at all?
In any event, even though it took them longer to get around to
building cities the people of early Northern Europe still has some
significant achievements to their credit -- in particular they put
up some of the earliest large stone structures in the world, the
famous megaliths, or standing stones. For some examples, see:
http://www.stonepages.com
--
John Brock
jbrock.RemoveThis@panix.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? |
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Since: Jan 31, 2004 Posts: 189
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Tim O'Neill" <scatha DeleteThis @bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:b9ebd984.0402231741.61de587b@posting.google.com...
> Posted on another forum:
>
> "Tolkien was a rampant Germanophile who was involved with a clique of
> like-minded Anglo-Saxons who strived to have all latin words removed
> from the English language. (Just like the Nazis attempted). The great
> motivation for his silly nonsense seems to have been a hair-brained
> attempt to turn the cultured Mediterranean world into the real
> barbarians (the 'evil' and swarthy southern people of his books), and
> makes the heroes of his stories racially pure Northern Europeans (who,
> no surprise happen to speak Anglo-Saxon dialect) with great cities of
> marble thousands of years ago, when they were little more than
> cavemen. In reality we know, that for a 1000 years these people could
> scarcely understand the concept of building more than a firepit of
> stone, and instead built hovels of twigs, timber, mud and dung, none
> of which survived a generation or two, not to mention virtually total
> illiteracy, virtually no metal objects made by themselves, and pottery
> so crude it could have been made in kindergarten classes. They
> believed in Elves because they saw Celtic, and later, Roman trade
> goods they knew could not be made by human hands, and had to be made
> by a greater race than they. (That much they got right).
>
> It is a good thing that his great goal was not achieved in his
> lifetime, that of making his ridiculous fairy tales the "National Myth
> of the English People". If anything, the true National Myth of Britain
> might rightfully be that of King Arthur, who is fondly remembered for
> his struggle to save Romano-British, Western civilisation from the
> invading, barbaric Anglo-Saxon hordes Tolkien idolized. The besieging,
> plundering orcs in these stories could easily be the Germannic hordes
> that overran Western civilizaton and set world progress back a
> millenium. Too bad Rome didn't possess the 'magic' to have the earth
> upen up and swallow their 'orc's like those in the film.
>
> It is fortunate the vast majority of people who are enthralled by this
> nonsense have no concept it is an attempt to revise European history
> with its role reversal of civilization and barbarism. For all they
> know, 'Middle Earth' could be on another planet, in a galaxy far, far
> away. Let's keep it there."
>
> Thoughts?
As others have said: An idiot wrote the above -- an idiot who never read
the books, it seems, given how he would have then known that it's the
Mediteranean-type Gondorians that are portrayed as more civilised
than the free barbarians of the North (the Rohirrim), (rather than vice
versa as the article claims).
So, yeah, this article was either written by an idiot, or by a liar -- or very
possibly by both.
Aris Katsaris<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? |
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Since: Jan 01, 2004 Posts: 752
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:00 am
Post subject: Re: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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It seems "Tim O'Neill" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>Posted on another forum:
[the usual bogus anti-Tolkien stuff]
>Thoughts?
Yes. Just because you've smelled something nasty is no call to go
around waving it under other people's noses.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://OakRoadSystems.com" target="_blank">http://OakRoadSystems.com</a>
Tolkien FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://Tolkien.slimy.com" target="_blank">http://Tolkien.slimy.com</a> (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html" target="_blank">http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html</a>
FAQ of the Rings: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm" target="_blank">http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm</a>
Encyclopedia of Arda: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm" target="_blank">http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm</a>
more FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm" target="_blank">http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Tolkien - Germanic Enemy of Civilisation? |
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