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Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? - I know it's an idle fancy but after the Deus Ex Machina of the last book, I'm almost in seeing Manticore lose to the Republic of Haven. It'd be a nice break from previous though the last book did a nice job of their..
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Some thoughts on the analysis of the Battle of Manticore - Some thoughts on the analysis of the Battle of Manticore But first, a quick note: === chapter 65 index 6764 ==== Even now, no one on either side knew exactly what would happen when fleets of this size engaged one another. There was simply no..
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Since: Jan 16, 2007 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:47 am
Post subject: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore Archived from groups: alt>books>david-weber (more info?)
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While rereading the entire Honorverse series, I can't help but wonder
about what sort of legislative/executive/judicial hierarchy will come
into existence once Silesia and Talbott are fully integrated into the
Star Kingdom.
It seems to me that the most likely option is a model similar to that
practiced by the UK Commonwealth - each individual star system will
have its own local legislature, executive and judiciary, modeled on
whatever principles of government the Star Kingdom permits them to have
(i.e. no dictatorships), with the added wrinkle that each of them will
hold separate elections to send MPs to the Manticoran Parliament,
accept the Manticoran monarch as head of state and will have branches
of the Manticoran judiciary present on each planet, almost like a
federation (i.e. USA).
It also brings up questions about the type of 'local' government that
the three planets of the Manticore system have - do they all rely on
the Manticoran Parliament and the government within that Parliament, or
do each of them have their own legislatures and executives as well?
What about the creation of aristocracies in Silesia and Talbott? "The
Shadow of Saganami" outlines various rich, influential persons and
families who would almost certainly receive peerages of some type when
Manticore takes formal control, if only to get them to impart that
money into building up the local economy to make them richer. Will
these new peers, many of them likely to be distrustful of Manticoran
imperialism, end up forming a new Opposition bloc to make the
Government's life interesting? >> Stay informed about: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore |
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Since: Jan 16, 2007 Posts: 9
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:48 am
Post subject: Re: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Michael R N Dolbear wrote:
> The British Empire never had MPs elected to the UK parliament. All
> courts were indeed the Monarch's Courts (no state/federal split) with
> the judges of the Privy Council at the top.
I know. That's why I suggested that such a thing would be a wrinkle,
and would result in a form of government that resembles a federation
and NOT the UK commonwealth.
>
> The SKM constitution can't work if the 'outies' can send MPs to the
> Manticoran Parliament because of transit times and elections not being
> held on fixed dates. Instead of the whole thing being over in six
> weeks, the more remote planets will only have just heard that an
> election is to take place. Further, the central worlds are not going to
> vote to be swamped by the high population 'outies' in deciding how to
> spend the budget.
Agreed. On the Infodump site DW does say that the Manticoran
Constitution mandates that the PM call general elections only at times
when the MPs being elected have a chance to conduct an effective
campaign. If direct Parliamentary representation does appear then this
rule will probably be the foundation of election planning for member
systems that do not enjoy direct Junction access.
>
> I note that all the five planets of the SKM have planetary assemblies
> (mentioned for San Martin in WoH and for Gryphon in "What Price
> Dreams?")
> so the foundation is there for a functional split with the 'outies'
> only
> being able to vote for the SKM parliament when resident within the
> central
> system.
I haven't read that story yet, so I didn't know that. Does the story
elaborate on what type of executive the assemblies practice oversight
on? Given Gryphon's distrust of aristocrats I would expect that the
planetary government is most likely one with a strong elective
component.
>
> Again the SKM Commons isn't going to vote itself a future headache and
> the Silesian plutocrats will not be allowed to tilt the business
> playing field in their own favour as they used to do.
True. It seems to me though that something like what I suggested is
going to happen if the Crown begins forming an aristocracy. Personal
feelings on Beth's part aside, if she wants new peers from Silesia and
Talbott she's going to have to choose people with the wealth and the
influence to fit their role, and I doubt she can get away with
cherry-picking them. >> Stay informed about: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore |
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Since: Jul 11, 2004 Posts: 57
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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theonekea.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote
> While rereading the entire Honorverse series, I can't help but wonder
> about what sort of legislative/executive/judicial hierarchy will come
> into existence once Silesia and Talbott are fully integrated into the
> Star Kingdom.
>
> It seems to me that the most likely option is a model similar to that
> practiced by the UK Commonwealth - each individual star system will
> have its own local legislature, executive and judiciary, modeled on
> whatever principles of government the Star Kingdom permits them to
have
> (i.e. no dictatorships), with the added wrinkle that each of them
will
> hold separate elections to send MPs to the Manticoran Parliament,
> accept the Manticoran monarch as head of state and will have branches
> of the Manticoran judiciary present on each planet, almost like a
> federation (i.e. USA).
The British Empire never had MPs elected to the UK parliament. All
courts were indeed the Monarch's Courts (no state/federal split) with
the judges of the Privy Council at the top.
The SKM constitution can't work if the 'outies' can send MPs to the
Manticoran Parliament because of transit times and elections not being
held on fixed dates. Instead of the whole thing being over in six
weeks, the more remote planets will only have just heard that an
election is to take place. Further, the central worlds are not going to
vote to be swamped by the high population 'outies' in deciding how to
spend the budget.
> It also brings up questions about the type of 'local' government that
> the three planets of the Manticore system have - do they all rely on
> the Manticoran Parliament and the government within that Parliament,
or
> do each of them have their own legislatures and executives as well?
I note that all the five planets of the SKM have planetary assemblies
(mentioned for San Martin in WoH and for Gryphon in "What Price
Dreams?")
so the foundation is there for a functional split with the 'outies'
only
being able to vote for the SKM parliament when resident within the
central
system.
> What about the creation of aristocracies in Silesia and Talbott? "The
> Shadow of Saganami" outlines various rich, influential persons and
> families who would almost certainly receive peerages of some type
when
> Manticore takes formal control, if only to get them to impart that
> money into building up the local economy to make them richer. Will
> these new peers, many of them likely to be distrustful of Manticoran
> imperialism, end up forming a new Opposition bloc to make the
> Government's life interesting?
Again the SKM Commons isn't going to vote itself a future headache and
the Silesian plutocrats will not be allowed to tilt the business
playing field in their own favour as they used to do.
--
Mike D >> Stay informed about: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore |
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Since: Aug 13, 2003 Posts: 1477
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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<theonekea DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1168958835.820163.227750@11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com...
> While rereading the entire Honorverse series, I can't help but wonder
> about what sort of legislative/executive/judicial hierarchy will come
> into existence once Silesia and Talbott are fully integrated into the
> Star Kingdom.
>
There is nothing to suggest that the governments in the Talbott cluster will
change much other than one or two that were rather oppressive.
I'm not clear about what was going on in Silesia.
> It seems to me that the most likely option is a model similar to that
> practiced by the UK Commonwealth - each individual star system will
> have its own local legislature, executive and judiciary, modeled on
> whatever principles of government the Star Kingdom permits them to have
> (i.e. no dictatorships), with the added wrinkle that each of them will
> hold separate elections to send MPs to the Manticoran Parliament,
> accept the Manticoran monarch as head of state and will have branches
> of the Manticoran judiciary present on each planet, almost like a
> federation (i.e. USA).
>
> It also brings up questions about the type of 'local' government that
> the three planets of the Manticore system have - do they all rely on
> the Manticoran Parliament and the government within that Parliament, or
> do each of them have their own legislatures and executives as well?
>
> What about the creation of aristocracies in Silesia and Talbott? "The
> Shadow of Saganami" outlines various rich, influential persons and
> families who would almost certainly receive peerages of some type when
> Manticore takes formal control, if only to get them to impart that
> money into building up the local economy to make them richer. Will
> these new peers, many of them likely to be distrustful of Manticoran
> imperialism, end up forming a new Opposition bloc to make the
> Government's life interesting?
>
Maybe >> Stay informed about: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore |
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Since: Aug 13, 2003 Posts: 1477
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"TheOneKEA" <theonekea.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1168976886.611921.98790@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Michael R N Dolbear wrote:
>> The British Empire never had MPs elected to the UK parliament. All
>> courts were indeed the Monarch's Courts (no state/federal split) with
>> the judges of the Privy Council at the top.
>
> I know. That's why I suggested that such a thing would be a wrinkle,
> and would result in a form of government that resembles a federation
> and NOT the UK commonwealth.
>
>>
>> The SKM constitution can't work if the 'outies' can send MPs to the
>> Manticoran Parliament because of transit times and elections not being
>> held on fixed dates. Instead of the whole thing being over in six
>> weeks, the more remote planets will only have just heard that an
>> election is to take place. Further, the central worlds are not going to
>> vote to be swamped by the high population 'outies' in deciding how to
>> spend the budget.
>
> Agreed. On the Infodump site DW does say that the Manticoran
> Constitution mandates that the PM call general elections only at times
> when the MPs being elected have a chance to conduct an effective
> campaign. If direct Parliamentary representation does appear then this
> rule will probably be the foundation of election planning for member
> systems that do not enjoy direct Junction access.
>
There is no suggestion of such in the Cluster. Each system already has a
government. They had to agree to some things but that was it. They did not
have to change their basic form of government or not much.
>>
>> I note that all the five planets of the SKM have planetary assemblies
>> (mentioned for San Martin in WoH and for Gryphon in "What Price
>> Dreams?")
>> so the foundation is there for a functional split with the 'outies'
>> only
>> being able to vote for the SKM parliament when resident within the
>> central
>> system.
>
> I haven't read that story yet, so I didn't know that. Does the story
> elaborate on what type of executive the assemblies practice oversight
> on? Given Gryphon's distrust of aristocrats I would expect that the
> planetary government is most likely one with a strong elective
> component.
>
>>
>> Again the SKM Commons isn't going to vote itself a future headache and
>> the Silesian plutocrats will not be allowed to tilt the business
>> playing field in their own favour as they used to do.
>
> True. It seems to me though that something like what I suggested is
> going to happen if the Crown begins forming an aristocracy. Personal
> feelings on Beth's part aside, if she wants new peers from Silesia and
> Talbott she's going to have to choose people with the wealth and the
> influence to fit their role, and I doubt she can get away with
> cherry-picking them.
> >> Stay informed about: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore |
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Since: Aug 26, 2003 Posts: 390
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:23 pm
Post subject: New Nobility, was Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "TheOneKEA" <theonekea DeleteThis @gmail.com>
wrote on 16 Jan 2007 11:48:06 -0800 in alt.books.david-weber :
>> Again the SKM Commons isn't going to vote itself a future headache and
>> the Silesian plutocrats will not be allowed to tilt the business
>> playing field in their own favour as they used to do.
>
>True. It seems to me though that something like what I suggested is
>going to happen if the Crown begins forming an aristocracy. Personal
>feelings on Beth's part aside, if she wants new peers from Silesia and
>Talbott she's going to have to choose people with the wealth and the
>influence to fit their role, and I doubt she can get away with
>cherry-picking them.
Creating Dukes, Earls and others of the outer reaches will be a long
process. I doubt that Manticore will open on office taking applications
for ennoblement. Quite possibly, there will be a hauling out of the
original template which established the original Manticore aristocracy, and
adjustments made to the various localities. E.G. San Martin is not
Selisia, is not the Tabor Cluster.
--
pyotr filipivich
"Given our monstrous, overgrown government structure, any three letters
chosen at random would probably designate an agency or part of a
department that could be profitably abolished." Milton Freidman >> Stay informed about: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore |
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Since: Aug 26, 2003 Posts: 390
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "deowll" <deowll.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net>
wrote on Tue, 16 Jan 2007 20:41:50 -0600 in alt.books.david-weber :
>
><theonekea.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1168958835.820163.227750@11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com...
>> While rereading the entire Honorverse series, I can't help but wonder
>> about what sort of legislative/executive/judicial hierarchy will come
>> into existence once Silesia and Talbott are fully integrated into the
>> Star Kingdom.
>>
>
>There is nothing to suggest that the governments in the Talbott cluster will
>change much other than one or two that were rather oppressive.
>
>I'm not clear about what was going on in Silesia.
They are going to clean up their act. Or else! Or else suffer the
Royal Displeasure as expressed by The Royal Courts!
Remember, Victor can only kill you once. Her Majesty's Department of
Internal Revenues Auditing Service can make you wish you had already died,
several times. BwahahahahahA!
tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow.
"Its a simple procedure involving Lasers." >> Stay informed about: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore |
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Since: Jul 11, 2004 Posts: 57
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:52 am
Post subject: Re: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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TheOneKEA <theonekea.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote
> Michael R N Dolbear wrote:
> > I note that all the five planets of the SKM have planetary
assemblies
> > (mentioned for San Martin in WoH and for Gryphon in "What Price
> > Dreams?")
> > so the foundation is there for a functional split with the 'outies'
only
> > being able to vote for the SKM parliament when resident within the
> > central system.
>
> I haven't read that story yet, so I didn't know that. Does the story
> elaborate on what type of executive the assemblies practice oversight
> on? Given Gryphon's distrust of aristocrats I would expect that the
> planetary government is most likely one with a strong elective
> component.
It's in the Worlds of Honor anthology. All HH books are free download
from somwhere at present, the CDs and individual books on them are
downloadable from:
http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/
The passage is mostly about treecats and the SKM constitution and
referendums but confirms that each SKM planet has a planetary assembly
and government.
Hence my suggestion that a new protectorate planet or indeed the
Talbott cluster can easily be fitted into the current system with local
self-government but no right to elect SKM MPs (eg Puerto Rico style).
--
Mike D >> Stay informed about: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore |
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Since: Aug 13, 2003 Posts: 1477
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Michael R N Dolbear" <me.TakeThisOut@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:01c73aa2$1b5f6ca0$LocalHost@default...
>
> TheOneKEA <theonekea.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote
>> Michael R N Dolbear wrote:
>
>> > I note that all the five planets of the SKM have planetary
> assemblies
>> > (mentioned for San Martin in WoH and for Gryphon in "What Price
>> > Dreams?")
>> > so the foundation is there for a functional split with the 'outies'
> only
>> > being able to vote for the SKM parliament when resident within the
>> > central system.
>>
>> I haven't read that story yet, so I didn't know that. Does the story
>> elaborate on what type of executive the assemblies practice oversight
>> on? Given Gryphon's distrust of aristocrats I would expect that the
>> planetary government is most likely one with a strong elective
>> component.
>
> It's in the Worlds of Honor anthology. All HH books are free download
> from somwhere at present, the CDs and individual books on them are
> downloadable from:
>
> http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/
>
> The passage is mostly about treecats and the SKM constitution and
> referendums but confirms that each SKM planet has a planetary assembly
> and government.
>
> Hence my suggestion that a new protectorate planet or indeed the
> Talbott cluster can easily be fitted into the current system with local
> self-government but no right to elect SKM MPs (eg Puerto Rico style).
>
I'm not completely sure what is going down. I think all the systems with
worm holes may get SKM MPs and that may extend to one system in the Cluster.
The cluster or maybe the rest of the cluster minus the one system that
Manticore really wanted may end up with some sort of cluster wide
organization with some government functions but the systems will still have
their system government with just enough changes to get admitted if they
need to make any changes at all.
This is vague because it's been a while since I read the book and the
product wasn't fully laid out.
What is going to happen with systems simply taken over is something else.
Nothing was said.
> --
> Mike D >> Stay informed about: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore |
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Since: Aug 21, 2004 Posts: 8
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Michael R N Dolbear" <me RemoveThis @privacy.net> wrote in message
news:01c73aa2$1b5f6ca0$LocalHost@default...
>
> TheOneKEA <theonekea RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote
>> Michael R N Dolbear wrote:
>
>> > I note that all the five planets of the SKM have planetary
> assemblies
>> > (mentioned for San Martin in WoH and for Gryphon in "What Price
>> > Dreams?")
>> > so the foundation is there for a functional split with the 'outies'
> only
>> > being able to vote for the SKM parliament when resident within the
>> > central system.
>>
>> I haven't read that story yet, so I didn't know that. Does the story
>> elaborate on what type of executive the assemblies practice oversight
>> on? Given Gryphon's distrust of aristocrats I would expect that the
>> planetary government is most likely one with a strong elective
>> component.
>
> It's in the Worlds of Honor anthology. All HH books are free download
> from somwhere at present, the CDs and individual books on them are
> downloadable from:
>
> http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/
>
> The passage is mostly about treecats and the SKM constitution and
> referendums but confirms that each SKM planet has a planetary assembly
> and government.
>
> Hence my suggestion that a new protectorate planet or indeed the
> Talbott cluster can easily be fitted into the current system with local
> self-government but no right to elect SKM MPs (eg Puerto Rico style).
>
> --
> Mike D
San Martin has both Peers and MPs, or at least will have them when a new
election is called (I don't think the Alexander government needed an
election to get into power after the debacle that ended the High Ridge
government).
Now, San Martin is in a special position vis a vis the Junction, and it does
seem that the Cluster governments will more or less retain their own
constitutions and the gods alone know what's going to happen in the former
Silesian Confederation...
--
John Fairhurst
http://www.johnsbooks.co.uk
john RemoveThis @johnsbooks.co.uk >> Stay informed about: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore |
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Since: Jul 11, 2004 Posts: 57
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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John Fairhurst <john.RemoveThis@johnsbooks.co.uk> wrote
> "Michael R N Dolbear" <me.RemoveThis@privacy.net> wrote
> > TheOneKEA <theonekea.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote
> >> Michael R N Dolbear wrote:
> >
> >> > I note that all the five planets of the SKM have planetary
> >> > assemblies (mentioned for San Martin in WoH and for
> >> > Gryphon in "What Price Dreams?")
> >> > so the foundation is there for a functional split with the
'outies'
[...]
> > Hence my suggestion that a new protectorate planet or indeed the
> > Talbott cluster can easily be fitted into the current system with
local
> > self-government but no right to elect SKM MPs (eg Puerto Rico
style).
> San Martin has both Peers and MPs, or at least will have them when a
new
> election is called (I don't think the Alexander government needed an
> election to get into power after the debacle that ended the High
Ridge
> government).
San Martin and Lynx are not 'outies' but SKM central worlds with a
Manticore wormhole terminus within 'daytrip' distance.
> Now, San Martin is in a special position vis a vis the Junction, and
it does
> seem that the Cluster governments will more or less retain their own
> constitutions and the gods alone know what's going to happen in the
former
> Silesian Confederation...
We don't know what the Talbott cluster Constitutional Convention
reported out but they have to give up control over defense,
interstellar trade and outcluster foreign affairs to the SKM and accept
SKM law on citizen's constitutional rights. This means freedom of
movement and business establishment for all SKM citizens.
They may also have established a Cluster legislative and oversight
assembly to work with Baroness Medusa, the Crown Governor designate.
So major changes or at least overiding new sections to their new
constitutions and their courts may become the Queen's courts with final
appeal to Manticore on matters of SKM law and citizen's constitutional
rights
The minimum changes in the new Silesian protectorate are the same but
in addition in cases where order breaks down or they get up to their
bad old cronyist and corrupt ways the SKM may be able to take over a
system's local government for a temporary period (Queens's rule,
compare "President's" rule in India).
And as I said, (Puerto Rico style) only the five central planets will
get to elect SKM MPs.
--
Mike D >> Stay informed about: Government hierarchy of the Star Empire of Manticore |
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