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Next: Ringworld Review
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External
Since: Oct 30, 2004
Posts: 41
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(Msg. 16) Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>larry-niven (more info?)
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In article <na.4c7dda4d07.a806e0tennant.TakeThisOut@argonet.co.uk>, Tennant Stuart
wrote:
> > Grogs seem to manage that without hands 
>
> Presumably their ancestors had hands, before they developed telekinesis.
>
Tridactyl - they're descended from thrints. It's explicitly
mentioned somewhere in the Canon.
> > What about dolphins?
>
> Bit tricky making fire underwater... 
>
Or any sort of chemistry. Compare how long hom.sap. had been doing
solid and liquid phase chemistry before techniques were developed to do
gas phase chemistry. Indeed, the concept of gas as opposed to absence of
gas (vacuum) didn't really get going until Torricelli and that German
bloke whose name is slipping out of my fingers ... ah, wonderful Wikipedia
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Guericke" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Guericke</a> in the 1600s.
--
Aidan Karley,
Aberdeen, Scotland,
Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> |
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External
Since: Oct 30, 2004
Posts: 41
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(Msg. 17) Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <na.a27db34d07.a806e0tennant.RemoveThis@argonet.co.uk>, Tennant Stuart
wrote:
> however, I reckon that the biggest threat would be from some
> kind of extraterrestrial marsupials, since their brain size is unlimited.
>
Huh?
Brain material (of whatever sort) will require support services -
food, waste elimination, thermal control, that sort of thing. That's going
to impose a constraint on the organism's growth of brain material.
--
Aidan Karley,
Aberdeen, Scotland,
Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> |
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External
Since: Oct 30, 2004
Posts: 41
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(Msg. 18) Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <na.97af924d07.a806e0tennant RemoveThis @argonet.co.uk>, Tennant Stuart
wrote:
> >> But is not *some* means of manipulating the environment required?
>
> > Perhaps. But dolphins?
>
> Errr... but dolphins what?
>
Anyone who has ever observed (even casually) dolphins (cetaceans
in general) will have observed intelligence, sentience, complex
behaviour, trainability, problem-solving skill. All the interesting
things we're talking about for our aliens. But no hands (and only the
most clumsy of methods for maniupulating their environment.
--
Aidan Karley,
Aberdeen, Scotland,
Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? |
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External
Since: Jan 25, 2004
Posts: 29
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(Msg. 19) Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 3 Nov 2004 04:06:37 -0800, kuyper.RemoveThis@wizard.net (James Kuyper) wrote:
>Darren J Longhorn <me.RemoveThis@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<ggtfo0tf13lkl99b5admd2q9k838a04pgb.RemoveThis@4ax.com>...
>> On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 10:54:50 GMT, Tennant Stuart
>> <tennant.RemoveThis@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <1iado01djvtek1ljnlsvjip8jk52pmt4c6.RemoveThis@4ax.com>, Darren J Longhorn
>> ><me.RemoveThis@privacy.net> wrote:
>...
>> >> Grogs seem to manage that without hands
>> >
>> >Presumably their ancestors had hands, before they developed telekinesis.
>>
>> I don't think we know that, do we?
>
>I think it's pretty definitely the case that Thrints had hands.
Oh. I'd forgotten that. Was that "proven" though? That the Thrint were
ancestors of the Grogs? >> Stay informed about: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? |
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External
Since: Mar 11, 2004
Posts: 87
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(Msg. 20) Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Tennant Stuart wrote:
> In article <1iado01djvtek1ljnlsvjip8jk52pmt4c6 DeleteThis @4ax.com>, Darren J Longhorn
<snip>
>
>>What about dolphins?
>
> Bit tricky making fire underwater...
>
> Tennant
>
Volcanoes. ;])
If you are a Space going Dolphin you gotta want it real bad.
TBerk<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? |
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External
Since: Jun 11, 2004
Posts: 8
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(Msg. 21) Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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>>>What about dolphins?
>> >
>Volcanoes. ;])
>
>If you are a Space going Dolphin you gotta want it real bad.
>
>
>TBerk
>
As warm and fuzzy as it sounds, it remains unproven whether they are sentient.
Therefore, we still have no datapoints for handless sentience.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? |
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External
Since: Jul 14, 2004
Posts: 62
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(Msg. 22) Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Darren J Longhorn <me.RemoveThis@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<4nfio09pp4n869hkb79poupe3qoudtqpn4.RemoveThis@4ax.com>...
> On 3 Nov 2004 04:06:37 -0800, kuyper.RemoveThis@wizard.net (James Kuyper) wrote:
>> Darren J Longhorn <me.RemoveThis@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<ggtfo0tf13lkl99b5admd2q9k838a04pgb.RemoveThis@4ax.com>...
>>> On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 10:54:50 GMT, Tennant Stuart
>>> <tennant.RemoveThis@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In article <1iado01djvtek1ljnlsvjip8jk52pmt4c6.RemoveThis@4ax.com>, Darren J Longhorn
>>>> <me.RemoveThis@privacy.net> wrote:
>> ...
>>>>> Grogs seem to manage that without hands
>>>> Presumably their ancestors had hands, before they developed telekinesis.
>>> I don't think we know that, do we?
>> I think it's pretty definitely the case that Thrints had hands.
> Oh. I'd forgotten that. Was that "proven" though? That the Thrint were
> ancestors of the Grogs?
Not absolutely, but it was strongly suggested that this might be the case. >> Stay informed about: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? |
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External
Since: Aug 28, 2004
Posts: 11
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(Msg. 23) Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:26 am
Post subject: Re: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <4nfio09pp4n869hkb79poupe3qoudtqpn4 RemoveThis @4ax.com>, Darren J Longhorn
<me RemoveThis @privacy.net> writes:
>Was that "proven" though? That the Thrint were
>ancestors of the Grogs?
>
I think that the only Known Space related work in which that ancestry is
postulated is in that uncannonical "deconstruction" of Known Space
proposed by a subversive writer friend of Niven's, published in one of
those semiautobiographical retrospective anthologies Niven has published
recently. I am speaking of the one in which the "Long Shot" was a hoax,
the Kzin are an exiled branch of the tnuctip species, there is no core
explosion, the Fleet of Worlds is running from the tnuctupin, which are
not extinct, etc.
All intelligent species in our galaxy were made extinct on
whatchamakallit day which ended the Thrint/Tnuctip war. >> Stay informed about: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? |
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External
Since: Jan 25, 2004
Posts: 29
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(Msg. 24) Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:10 am
Post subject: Re: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 5 Nov 2004 19:11:11 -0800, kuyper.DeleteThis@wizard.net (James Kuyper) wrote:
>Darren J Longhorn <me.DeleteThis@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<4nfio09pp4n869hkb79poupe3qoudtqpn4.DeleteThis@4ax.com>...
>> Oh. I'd forgotten that. Was that "proven" though? That the Thrint were
>> ancestors of the Grogs?
>
>Not absolutely, but it was strongly suggested that this might be the case.
Remind me which story that was in. >> Stay informed about: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? |
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External
Since: Oct 30, 2004
Posts: 41
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(Msg. 25) Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <20041106022611.08080.00000027.RemoveThis@mb-m05.aol.com>, John W.
Landrum wrote:
> All intelligent species in our galaxy were made extinct on
> whatchamakallit day which ended the Thrint/Tnuctip war.
>
Except for all the ones that were in stasis fields. Err, Kzanol
in Sol; the un-named one that the Kzinti nuked from orbit;
Dvinutop-something in the Serpent swarm at an inconvenient time for the
Kzin defence; the shipful of Thrint in a recent MKW volume ...
something like one thrint per stellar system on the basis of the sample
so far. That's a lot of thrints.
Why haven't the tnuctipun been found? Surely they had stasis
fields, and would have been as widely distributed as the thrints.
--
Aidan Karley,
Aberdeen, Scotland,
Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233 >> Stay informed about: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? |
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External
Since: Jan 25, 2004
Posts: 29
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(Msg. 26) Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 06 Nov 2004 07:26:11 GMT, jwlandrum.TakeThisOut@aol.computer (John W. Landrum)
wrote:
>In article <4nfio09pp4n869hkb79poupe3qoudtqpn4.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>, Darren J Longhorn
><me.TakeThisOut@privacy.net> writes:
>
>>Was that "proven" though? That the Thrint were
>>ancestors of the Grogs?
>>
>
>I think that the only Known Space related work in which that ancestry is
>postulated is in that uncannonical "deconstruction" of Known Space
>proposed by a subversive writer friend of Niven's, published in one of
>those semiautobiographical retrospective anthologies Niven has published
>recently. I am speaking of the one in which the "Long Shot" was a hoax,
>the Kzin are an exiled branch of the tnuctip species, there is no core
>explosion, the Fleet of Worlds is running from the tnuctupin, which are
>not extinct, etc.
> All intelligent species in our galaxy were made extinct on
>whatchamakallit day which ended the Thrint/Tnuctip war.
Ah, "Down in flames". >> Stay informed about: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? |
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External
Since: Feb 29, 2004
Posts: 25
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(Msg. 27) Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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The Man-Kzin war stary titled IN THE HALL OF THE MOUNTAIN KING is about a
tnuctip in stasis found on Wunderland after the end of the first war.
"Aidan Karley" <aidan RemoveThis @mynameplus1.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:VA.00000289.234c012a@mynameplus1.demon.co.uk.invalid...
> In article <20041106022611.08080.00000027 RemoveThis @mb-m05.aol.com>, John W.
> Landrum wrote:
>> All intelligent species in our galaxy were made extinct on
>> whatchamakallit day which ended the Thrint/Tnuctip war.
>>
> Except for all the ones that were in stasis fields. Err, Kzanol
> in Sol; the un-named one that the Kzinti nuked from orbit;
> Dvinutop-something in the Serpent swarm at an inconvenient time for the
> Kzin defence; the shipful of Thrint in a recent MKW volume ...
> something like one thrint per stellar system on the basis of the sample
> so far. That's a lot of thrints.
> Why haven't the tnuctipun been found? Surely they had stasis
> fields, and would have been as widely distributed as the thrints.
>
> --
> Aidan Karley,
> Aberdeen, Scotland,
> Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233
> >> Stay informed about: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? |
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External
Since: Oct 30, 2004
Posts: 41
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(Msg. 28) Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <20041104141243.06573.00000069.TakeThisOut@mb-m22.aol.com>, G EddieA95 wrote:
> As warm and fuzzy as it sounds, it remains unproven whether they are sentient.
> Therefore, we still have no datapoints for handless sentience.
>
Since dolphins do definitely have social lives, definitely treat
individual dolphins differently (i.e., they can tell the difference between
different dolphins, and have memories of different interactions in the past),
then a sense of "self" in dolphins is unavoidable. I can't conceive of how you
can have a sense of self without having sentience.
Are you using normal english language definitions of "sentience" and
"intelligence". Sometimes it sounds as if you have the definitions inverted.
--
Aidan Karley,
Aberdeen, Scotland,
Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? |
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External
Since: Oct 30, 2004
Posts: 41
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(Msg. 29) Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <q6OdnecRjNn9qBDcRVn-1Q.RemoveThis@provide.net>, Allen W. McDonnell wrote:
> The Man-Kzin war stary titled IN THE HALL OF THE MOUNTAIN KING is about a
> tnuctip in stasis found on Wunderland after the end of the first war.
>
Oh yes. Forgot that one.
--
Aidan Karley,
Aberdeen, Scotland,
Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233 >> Stay informed about: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? |
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External
Since: Jul 14, 2004
Posts: 62
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(Msg. 30) Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 4:11 am
Post subject: Re: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Darren J Longhorn <me.DeleteThis@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<eg8po0dupojqimkecn5kp9taesacg8tceh.DeleteThis@4ax.com>...
> On 5 Nov 2004 19:11:11 -0800, kuyper.DeleteThis@wizard.net (James Kuyper) wrote:
>
>>> Darren J Longhorn <me.DeleteThis@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<4nfio09pp4n869hkb79poupe3qoudtqpn4.DeleteThis@4ax.com>...
>>
>>> Oh. I'd forgotten that. Was that "proven" though? That the Thrint were
>>> ancestors of the Grogs?
>>
>> Not absolutely, but it was strongly suggested that this might be the case.
>
> Remind me which story that was in.
I believe it was mentioned in the story that introduced the Grog. >> Stay informed about: Do you need Hands to be Sentient? |
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