History of Arnor

"Bill O'Meally" <OMeallyMD.TakeThisOut@wise.rr.com> wrote in message
news:C8che.119$S4.59@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Pippen wrote:
>> Every time I read the chapter "Fog on the Barrow-Downs" in FotR I find
>> myself wanting to know more about Arnor. I have read LotR, UT, TH and
>> the SIL all a few times and was wondering if any more information is
>> given in the HoME about Arnor?
>
> I'm assuming you've read Appendix A from LotR? There's a good bit on the
> North Kindom there.
>
> --
> Bill
>
> "Wise fool"
> Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
> -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
>
>

Yes, I have... That is how I cheat when I don't want to get into reading the
whole book again I read the appendices although I usually skip F
(languages). Yes I'm one of those people who had never read anything from
Tolkien until I watched the movies in late 2001. Since then I have read all
the books I have mentioned above at least twice and the Sil (my favorite)
four times and starting my fouth time on LotR, which in this group still
makes me a newbie... I tried once to read BoLT but I just could not get into
it. And honestly from what I have heard from lurking in this NG about HoME
I'm not sure I want to because I'm afraid it will take away from LotR. For
example Trotter being a hobbit which later turns into Strider (I think I got
that right).

I'm just looking for details that probably are not there. For example who
was the lady that wore the broach that Tom took back to Goldberry? Which of
the three kingdoms did the fortress wall by the dyke belong to? Arthedain,
Cardolan and Rhudaur all kind of bordered in the general area of the Barrow
Downs and the road best I can tell.

Thanks for the reference...

-p
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Pippen <name.TakeThisOut@notreal.add> wrote:

<snip>

> I'm just looking for details that probably are not there. For example
> who was the lady that wore the broach that Tom took back to
> Goldberry?

I think this has been discussed before, and I seem to remember that
there is no definite answer other than her probably being a lady or
queen of the Dunedain of Arnor. And the fact that Tom and Goldberry
remember her.

> Which of the three kingdoms did the fortress wall by the
> dyke belong to? Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur all kind of bordered
> in the general area of the Barrow Downs and the road best I can tell.

By "fortress wall by the dyke", do you mean this?

"The dark line they had seen was not a line of trees but a line of
bushes growing on the edge of a deep dike with a steep wall on the
further side."

This is when the hobbits are travelling north to the Great Road with
Tom, after he has rescued them from the barrow. The Old Forest and the
Barrow-downs were south of the Great Road and wholly within the realm of
Cardolan, while still near the borders with Arthedain (the borders being
the Great Road and the Brandywine River - see map). Rhudaur is much
further to the east, beyond the Weather Hills and the River Hoarwell.

So the answer seems to be that Cardolan would most likely have built the
fortress wall and dike on the south side of the road, which is the side
the hobbits are approaching from.

The ruins seen later in the Trollshaws (and first seen by Bilbo on his
first journey to Erebor) were within the realm of Rhudaur. The
Elf-towers were in the realm of Arthedain, as are the ruins of Annuminas
by Lake Evendim (which seems to be one of the locations still inhabited
by the Rangers of the North - descendents of the Kings of old), and the
ruins at Fornost. The Weather Hills were the oft-disputed border between
Arthedain and Rhudaur, and Arthedain built many of the later fortresses
on the heights to defend against evil from Rhudaur (then in league with
Angmar). And the tower of Weathertop itself was at the junction between
all three kingdoms, fiercely disputed for its palantir, and eventually
overthrown and burnt.

If you want more detail on the borders of the three kingdoms within
Arnor, I'd suggest a detailed look at the description in the Appendices
while looking at the map at the same time. There are also books like
Fonstad's "Atlas of Middle-earth" that probably draw in the borders,
though I can't remember for sure if Fonstad has maps of Arnor and its
realms.

Christopher

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On Fri, 13 May 2005 19:55:28 -0600, "Pippen" <name.TakeThisOut@notreal.add> wrote:

<snip>

>I'm just looking for details that probably are not there. For example who
>was the lady that wore the broach that Tom took back to Goldberry?

It's said that barrow was where the last prince of Cardolan was
buried; the woman then would have been his wife or a close relative.
From Tom's description of her, I've always thought she was young,
either his wife or daughter.

> Which of
>the three kingdoms did the fortress wall by the dyke belong to? Arthedain,
>Cardolan and Rhudaur all kind of bordered in the general area of the Barrow
>Downs and the road best I can tell.

That area would have been in Cardolan; however, as the northern
boundary of that kingdom was the Great Road and this dyke/wall is
some distance south of the road (the sun moved down to the horizon as
Tom and the hobbits headed toward the road, and they finally galloped
their ponies over the last furlongs), it's harder to explain it as
"the boundary of a kingdom" that reminded Tom of something sad.
Perhaps it marks the place where the people of Cardolan were finally
able to hold the line against Angmar's forces after the disaster of
1409.

A remnant of the faithful among the Dunedain of Cardolan also
held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or took refuge in the
forest behind.
-- from Appendix A.I.iii

Their being in the forest might also explain how Tom and Goldberry got
to know them.

Barb

_____
Believing is seeing.
-- Anonymous geologist
_____
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"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard.RemoveThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mslhe.31797$G8.24489@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Pippen <name.RemoveThis@notreal.add> wrote:
>
> > Which of the three kingdoms did the fortress wall by the
> > dyke belong to? Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur all kind of bordered
> > in the general area of the Barrow Downs and the road best I can tell.
>
> By "fortress wall by the dyke", do you mean this?
>
> "The dark line they had seen was not a line of trees but a line of
> bushes growing on the edge of a deep dike with a steep wall on the
> further side."
>
> So the answer seems to be that Cardolan would most likely have built the
> fortress wall and dike on the south side of the road, which is the side
> the hobbits are approaching from.
>

But if the dike (ditch) is on the south side of the wall, which the
description seems to say, it would be intended to defend against enemies
from the south: it would therefore have been built by Arthedain.
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Pippen <name.DeleteThis@notreal.add> wrote:
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> Pippen <name.DeleteThis@notreal.add> wrote:
>
> <snip>
<
>> By "fortress wall by the dyke", do you mean this?
>
> Yes, not sure what you mean by did I mean this?

Just wasn't sure what you meant. There might have been another dike
somewhere in Arnor that the hobbits stumbled across. But given that you
mentioned Tom, I should have realised that was the one you meant. As for
the variant spellings, I use the dike spelling, as I do associate the
other one with the slang term. Both spellings are valid though.

Christopher

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Belba Grubb From Stock <barbb DeleteThis @dbtech.net> wrote:

<snip>

> That area would have been in Cardolan; however, as the northern
> boundary of that kingdom was the Great Road and this dyke/wall is
> some distance south of the road (the sun moved down to the horizon as
> Tom and the hobbits headed toward the road, and they finally galloped
> their ponies over the last furlongs)

I had mistakenly thought the dike (which is the ditch, not the wall) was
next to the road, but I see that this is not the case. The road is lined
by tall trees. It is an easy mistake to make, as the hobbits also
initially thought the bush-lined dike was the road they were heading
towards.

> it's harder to explain it as "the boundary of a kingdom" that reminded
> Tom of something sad. Perhaps it marks the place where the people of
> Cardolan were finally able to hold the line against Angmar's forces
after
> the disaster of 1409.

This sounds plausible. Also note that the hobbits and Tom seem to have
been going north-west, so possibly the dike doesn't run east-west
(though that is the assumption the hobbits seem to have made - thinking
it was the east-west road) and it runs north-south or diagonally at an
angle facing east or north-east. That would be suitable for defences
against the forces of Angmar in the east.

> Their being in the forest might also explain how Tom and Goldberry got
> to know them.

Yes. All very plausible. It all begins to hang together. Now we just
need a fan-fic story to flesh out the details...

Christopher

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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> As for the variant spellings, I use the dike spelling, as I do
> associate the other one with the slang term. Both spellings are valid
> though.

Perhaps Pippen *was* referring to ther Lady in question.
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
 >> Stay informed about: History of Arnor 

"Bill O'Meally" <OMeallyMD DeleteThis @wise.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4VNhe.277$rb.222@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
>> As for the variant spellings, I use the dike spelling, as I do
>> associate the other one with the slang term. Both spellings are valid
>> though.
>
> Perhaps Pippen *was* referring to ther Lady in question.
> --
> Bill
>
> "Wise fool"
> Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
> -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
>
>

I've been reading too much fan-fic...

-p
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the softrat wrote:

> On Mon, 16 May 2005 11:16:49 -0500, Graham Lockwood
> <g-ng RemoveThis @yeehawgropes.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 16 May 2005 02:48:31 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer wrote
>>(in article <jfYhe.32680$G8.22797@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>):
>>
>>> Is not brooch the correct spelling?
>>
>>Both seem to be acceptable.
>>
> 'broach' is what whales do and what one does to kegs. A 'brooch' is
> worn as an ornament.
>
Not according to the online Merriam-Webster. Since I'm at work, I don't
have access to the OED, but it certainly seems acceptable in the US.
--
derek
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On Mon, 16 May 2005 15:15:10 -0300, Derek Broughton
<news DeleteThis @pointerstop.ca> wrote:

>the softrat wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 16 May 2005 11:16:49 -0500, Graham Lockwood
>> <g-ng DeleteThis @yeehawgropes.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 16 May 2005 02:48:31 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer wrote
>>>(in article <jfYhe.32680$G8.22797@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>):
>>>
>>>> Is not brooch the correct spelling?
>>>
>>>Both seem to be acceptable.
>>>
>> 'broach' is what whales do and what one does to kegs. A 'brooch' is
>> worn as an ornament.
>>
>Not according to the online Merriam-Webster. Since I'm at work, I don't
>have access to the OED, but it certainly seems acceptable in the US.

A) Dictionaries reflect Usage, correct or incorrect.
B) Even dictionaries err.


the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat@pobox.com
--
Justice to a lawyer is like morality to a hooker:
irrelevant to the business at hand...
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On Mon, 16 May 2005 15:15:10 -0300, Derek Broughton
(news@pointerstop.ca) said:
> the softrat wrote:
['brooch' versus 'broach']
> > 'broach' is what whales do and what one does to kegs. A 'brooch' is
> > worn as an ornament.
> >
> Not according to the online Merriam-Webster. Since I'm at work, I don't
> have access to the OED, but it certainly seems acceptable in the US.

The OED says that 'broach' (n.) comes from Romance or late Latin
'brocca' meaning a spike. This is, as one would expect, the same word in
origin as 'brooch', and the various meanings of'broach' include spike,
pin, spire, spit, spindle, taper, and so on and so forth. In the entry
on 'brooch', it notes that the "differentiation of spelling [is] only
recent, and hardly yet established."
--
Matthew
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On Mon, 16 May 2005 18:23:33 -0500, the softrat wrote
(in article <qpai81lj1irmh0807cf6f4g70hul82r47v.DeleteThis@4ax.com>):

> On Mon, 16 May 2005 15:15:10 -0300, Derek Broughton
> <news.DeleteThis@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>
>> the softrat wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 16 May 2005 11:16:49 -0500, Graham Lockwood
>>> <g-ng.DeleteThis@yeehawgropes.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2005 02:48:31 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer wrote
>>>> (in article <jfYhe.32680$G8.22797@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>):
>>>>
>>>>> Is not brooch the correct spelling?
>>>>
>>>> Both seem to be acceptable.
>>>>
>>> 'broach' is what whales do and what one does to kegs. A 'brooch' is
>>> worn as an ornament.
>>>
>> Not according to the online Merriam-Webster. Since I'm at work, I don't
>> have access to the OED, but it certainly seems acceptable in the US.
>
> A) Dictionaries reflect Usage, correct or incorrect.
> B) Even dictionaries err.

As opposed to softrats which are infallible?



---
Graham
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Pippen <name.RemoveThis@notreal.add> wrote:

<snip>

> Either you have an incredible memory or an electronic version of the
> books! I will assume incredible memory since the other is not
> allowed...

Quotes involving the word 'dike' are easily found by referring to the
places in the book where we see fortifications, such as between the
Shire and the Old Forest, Bree, Edoras, Helm's Deep, the Pelennor
Fields. Memory, intuition and an index can go a long way in some cases.
To save much typing, long quotes can sometimes be resurrected from
Google Groups, where others have posted them, or from one's own past
posts.

As for electronic versions, there has been debate about that here in the
past. Mostly concerning how some countries apparently allow people to
scan books for "their own use" or "as a back-up copy".

Christopher

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