[OT] Incredibles Legal Question

In message <pqf3e.1410$4b.325@trndny09>, zildjean <zildjean.TakeThisOut@verizon.net>
writes
 >
 >Until fairly recently, you could be sued for trying to save someone's life;
 >if you rescued a drowning person by performing CPR and they were
 >subsequently brain damaged because they had been without adequate oxygen for
 >too long.

I'm not aware of any similar cases in the UK, off the top of my head,
although it's not really my area. The courts have generally been fairly
reluctant to hold that "being alive" is worse than "being dead", unless
the state you're left in is truly shocking and the risk should have been
apparent to the person who was trying to save you. Public policy
dictates that the courts would not want to dissuade people from saving
lives.

 >However, Police, Fire Departments, ambulance companies, Paramedics, etc,
 >(the professionals) are routinely sued by the people they attempt to aid.
 >Everywhere. As these are civil suits, you can look them up on the web
 >pretty easily.

This is a slightly different issue because this concerns people who are
supposed to be exercising a certain degree of expertise in what they do.
There's nothing particularly unfair about saying "This paramedic fucked
up big time, and while he managed to save my life, I'm paralysed from
the neck down because of his screw-up."

I can think of plenty of other reasons why Mr Incredible might get sued,
anyway. Like most superheroes, he's apparently a vigilante, and
distinctly vulnerable to assault charges. Assuming you could work out
where to serve the writ, it surely wouldn't be that hard to construct a
case against him.

--
Paul O'Brien

THE X-AXIS - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thexaxis.com" target="_blank">http://www.thexaxis.com</a>
ARTICLE 10 - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ninthart.com" target="_blank">http://www.ninthart.com</a>
LIVEJOURNAL - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.livejournal.com/~paulobrien" target="_blank">http://www.livejournal.com/~paulobrien</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: [OT] Incredibles Legal Question 

Paul O'Brien wrote:
 > In message <pqf3e.1410$4b.325@trndny09>, zildjean
 > <zildjean DeleteThis @verizon.net> writes
  >>
  >> Until fairly recently, you could be sued for trying to save
  >> someone's life; if you rescued a drowning person by performing CPR
  >> and they were subsequently brain damaged because they had been
  >> without adequate oxygen for too long.
 >
 > I'm not aware of any similar cases in the UK, off the top of my head,
 > although it's not really my area. The courts have generally been
 > fairly reluctant to hold that "being alive" is worse than "being
 > dead", unless the state you're left in is truly shocking and the risk
 > should have been apparent to the person who was trying to save you.
 > Public policy dictates that the courts would not want to dissuade
 > people from saving lives.

I recall some anecodal cases from a First Aid course I did years ago where
they discussed this situation, and why you shouldn't be afraid to offer
First Aid in an emergency. They gave the example that someone sued a First
Aider for breaking their ribs when trying to give them CPR. It was thrown
out of court, because the alternative would have been that the person would
have died.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: [OT] Incredibles Legal Question 

"Paul O'Brien" <paul.TakeThisOut@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:GwVb0XB+rYTCFwJB@esoterica.demon.co.uk...
 > In message <pqf3e.1410$4b.325@trndny09>, zildjean <zildjean.TakeThisOut@verizon.net>
 > writes
  >>
  >>Until fairly recently, you could be sued for trying to save someone's
  >>life;
  >>if you rescued a drowning person by performing CPR and they were
  >>subsequently brain damaged because they had been without adequate oxygen
  >>for
  >>too long.
 >
 > I'm not aware of any similar cases in the UK, off the top of my head,
 > although it's not really my area. The courts have generally been fairly
 > reluctant to hold that "being alive" is worse than "being dead", unless
 > the state you're left in is truly shocking and the risk should have been
 > apparent to the person who was trying to save you. Public policy dictates
 > that the courts would not want to dissuade people from saving lives.
 >
  >>However, Police, Fire Departments, ambulance companies, Paramedics, etc,
  >>(the professionals) are routinely sued by the people they attempt to aid.
  >>Everywhere. As these are civil suits, you can look them up on the web
  >>pretty easily.
 >
 > This is a slightly different issue because this concerns people who are
 > supposed to be exercising a certain degree of expertise in what they do.
 > There's nothing particularly unfair about saying "This paramedic fucked up
 > big time, and while he managed to save my life, I'm paralysed from the
 > neck down because of his screw-up."
 >
 > I can think of plenty of other reasons why Mr Incredible might get sued,
 > anyway. Like most superheroes, he's apparently a vigilante, and
 > distinctly vulnerable to assault charges. Assuming you could work out
 > where to serve the writ, it surely wouldn't be that hard to construct a
 > case against him.
 >
 >


In the Incredibles, we see the suicide survivor in casts and bandages from
head to toe; presumably he is suing because Mr. Incredible f*cked up when
saving him. It's not really clear at the end of the movie, but it looks
like the government has welcomed the Incredibles back, which probably
affords them some legal "Professional" protections. Maybe they have a form
of "malpractice insurance"?

Police dread jumpers and other attempted suicides, because, by definition,
these people have low self-worth and are very suggestible when a law shark
hands them a business card and suggests that suing the Police will turn
their lives around.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: [OT] Incredibles Legal Question 

Paul O'Brien <paul RemoveThis @SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:GwVb0XB+rYTCFwJB@esoterica.demon.co.uk:
 >
 > This is a slightly different issue because this concerns people who
 > are supposed to be exercising a certain degree of expertise in what
 > they do. There's nothing particularly unfair about saying "This
 > paramedic fucked up big time, and while he managed to save my life,
 > I'm paralysed from the neck down because of his screw-up."
 >
 > I can think of plenty of other reasons why Mr Incredible might get
 > sued, anyway. Like most superheroes, he's apparently a vigilante, and
 > distinctly vulnerable to assault charges. Assuming you could work out
 > where to serve the writ, it surely wouldn't be that hard to construct
 > a case against him.

No, he isn't really a vigilante. While the exact details aren't
given, the superheroes in The Incredibles are supported by the
government for their work.

That is why the news reel narration mentions the amount of money the
government loses due to the successful superhero lawsuits, and at least
part of why the government pays to put them into the equivalent of
witness relocation, and even pays for problems afterwards (such as the
list the government guy makes for Robert after Robert throws his boss
through several walls.)

The comparison to Police, Fire Departments, etc is quite valid
though. The superheroes of The Incredibles are supposed to be people
exercising a certain degree of expertise. The public trusts them,
the government supports and sponsors them, and the police even look
to Mr Incredible to lead the capture of Bomb Voyage.

Which is probably what really nails Mr Incredible. It isn't just
the suicide attempt suit, but that it is immediately followed by the
train lawsuit. When the suicidal guy says he thinks something is
broken, Mr Incredible quips that the guy will forgive him after
counselling. (Local police had a more extreme version of such a
response when a cop answered "Too bad" to the report of a motorcycle
accident.) With the train, he not only dropped the bomb on the
tracks, he abandons the cops and the search for Bomb Voyage for no
given reason. Even if he had admitted he was getting married that
night, it wouldn't be much of an excuse against public concern in
the need to apprehend a supervillian that he had technically let
escape earlier.

Mr Incredible falls because of the appearance of unprofessionalism.
Those two suits open the floodgates for general challenges (like the
paper showing the x-ray vision suit or whatever it was) that wouldn't
have carried in court before the public started to turn against the
heroes.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: [OT] Incredibles Legal Question 

In message <hEh3e.1595$7b.566@trndny06>, zildjean <zildjean RemoveThis @verizon.net>
writes
 >
 >In the Incredibles, we see the suicide survivor in casts and bandages
 >from head to toe; presumably he is suing because Mr. Incredible f*cked
 >up when saving him. It's not really clear at the end of the movie, but
 >it looks like the government has welcomed the Incredibles back, which
 >probably affords them some legal "Professional" protections. Maybe
 >they have a form of "malpractice insurance"?

Oh, under the current US government, they'd probably just make it
illegal to sue them.

--
Paul O'Brien

THE X-AXIS - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thexaxis.com" target="_blank">http://www.thexaxis.com</a>
ARTICLE 10 - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ninthart.com" target="_blank">http://www.ninthart.com</a>
LIVEJOURNAL - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.livejournal.com/~paulobrien" target="_blank">http://www.livejournal.com/~paulobrien</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: [OT] Incredibles Legal Question 

"Hand-of-Omega" <handofomega.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112371975.878564.309650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
 > And yes, I'm asking this here because I know Paul is on this
 > group...but anyone else with any insight is more than welcome to
 > respond too!^__~
 >
 > In the movie The Incredibles, Mr. Incredible is sued by a man he
 > rescued from attempted suicide. But surely this could never happen?
 > Isn't attempted suicide a crime, or at least grounds for mental
 > illness? Can a person in either state sue someone?

It is a crime to commit suicide. Why? This gives the police the legal
authority to act to prevet someone from killing themselves. I think that
Mr. Incredible would have some sort of protection under these laws.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: [OT] Incredibles Legal Question 

"Brian Long" <brian.s.long.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:6u6dndMxq5h2bdPfRVn-3Q@comcast.com...
 >
 > "Hand-of-Omega" <handofomega.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
 > news:1112371975.878564.309650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
  >> And yes, I'm asking this here because I know Paul is on this
  >> group...but anyone else with any insight is more than welcome to
  >> respond too!^__~
  >>
  >> In the movie The Incredibles, Mr. Incredible is sued by a man he
  >> rescued from attempted suicide. But surely this could never happen?
  >> Isn't attempted suicide a crime, or at least grounds for mental
  >> illness? Can a person in either state sue someone?
 >
 > It is a crime to commit suicide. Why? This gives the police the legal
 > authority to act to prevet someone from killing themselves. I think that
 > Mr. Incredible would have some sort of protection under these laws.
 >

Nope.

If you are harmed by the Police, you presumably have grounds for a civil
lawsuit against them, whether or not you were comitting a crime. The most
obvious example I can come up with off the top of my head is the Rodney King
incident.

While the officers were (surprisingly) cleared of criminal charges for
beating the crap out of him after he was down, they were still guilty of
civil liabilities.

But that's why Police hate jumpers. If they fail to keep the idiot from
jumping, they can get sued. If they break the idiot's leg trying to pull
him away from the ledge, they can be sued.

Welcome to America.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: [OT] Incredibles Legal Question 

"zildjean" <zildjean.RemoveThis@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:pqf3e.1410$4b.325@trndny09...
 >
 > "Hand-of-Omega" <handofomega.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
 > news:1112371975.878564.309650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
  >> And yes, I'm asking this here because I know Paul is on this
  >> group...but anyone else with any insight is more than welcome to
  >> respond too!^__~
  >>
  >> In the movie The Incredibles, Mr. Incredible is sued by a man he
  >> rescued from attempted suicide. But surely this could never happen?
  >> Isn't attempted suicide a crime, or at least grounds for mental
  >> illness? Can a person in either state sue someone?
  >>
  >> Also, on a related note, wouldn't the government have actual things the
  >> superheroes could use their powers for around the world, even if
  >> covertly? Even if this is some parallel "nice" government (The world
  >> that Mark Millar forgot!^^), surely there's some problems they could be
  >> solving...
  >>
  >> Thanks for any response!
  >>
  >> Dex
  >>
 >
 > Until fairly recently, you could be sued for trying to save someone's
 > life; if you rescued a drowning person by performing CPR and they were
 > subsequently brain damaged because they had been without adequate oxygen
 > for too long.

This is definitely true. I was a lifeguard about ten years ago and our
instructor told us not to practice CPR on someone outside of our
lifeguarding duties because we could be liable for a lawsuit. We were always
told to ask "Is there a doctor in the crowd?" and to let that doctor handle
it. (On a side note, you'd be surprised how many doctors *didn't* volunteer
themselves when asked for all the reasons you mention.)

Dave<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: [OT] Incredibles Legal Question 

zildjean wrote:
 > If you are harmed by the Police, you presumably have grounds for a
civil
 > lawsuit against them, whether or not you were comitting a crime. The
most
 > obvious example I can come up with off the top of my head is the
Rodney King
 > incident.
 >
 > While the officers were (surprisingly) cleared of criminal charges
for
 > beating the crap out of him after he was down, they were still guilty
of
 > civil liabilities.
 >
 > But that's why Police hate jumpers. If they fail to keep the idiot
from
 > jumping, they can get sued. If they break the idiot's leg trying to
pull
 > him away from the ledge, they can be sued.
 >
 > Welcome to America.

Not quite what you're talking about, but on a related note, I recently
read in a book ("100 Things You're Not Supposed To Know" or something
like that) that in many cases, the police *cannot* be sued. It's
actually written on the books that the police "owe no protection" to
citizens in danger. There were examples given of people being attacked,
raped, kidnapped and murdered, in situations where police clearly could
have stopped these events but didn't do to negligence or incompetence.
When the survivors/families tried to sue, the courts cited the above
law as grounds for summarily throwing the cases out of court. I would
guess the ultimate rationale for this would be that if *everyone* who
had a legimate problem with law enforcement sued, there'd be no law
enforcement left for anyone...

Welcome to America, indeed...

Dex<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: [OT] Incredibles Legal Question 

I have a good lady friends who works as a RN and her repsonse was she would
probably not help as a bystander.
People today are too lawsuit happy. She is covered by the Hosiptal when she
is working but when she is off they will not cover her.
So any lawsuit would be directly againt her. It is getting to the point,
where bystanders can not help, even with good samitairian laws.
Even if the case was thrown out, you would still have to get a lawyer and go
through the trial.

Prospero
 >> Stay informed about: [OT] Incredibles Legal Question 

"zildjean" <zildjean.DeleteThis@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:hEh3e.1595$7b.566@trndny06...
 >
 >
 >
 > In the Incredibles, we see the suicide survivor in casts and bandages from
 > head to toe; presumably he is suing because Mr. Incredible f*cked up when
 > saving him. It's not really clear at the end of the movie, but it looks
 > like the government has welcomed the Incredibles back, which probably
 > affords them some legal "Professional" protections.

Actually, it's the 'amatuers' that are protected. In other words, if you're
choking on something at a restauraunt, if the waiter gives you CPR and
breaks your ribs, you can't sue. If a Doctor does the same things, you can,
because they are expected to know what to do.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: [OT] Incredibles Legal Question