Inklings and Islam is there a connection?

On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:46:19 -0300, Derek Broughton wrote:
> Steve Hayes wrote:
/snip/

>> I have heard people say that the Calormenes in the Narnia books represent
>> Muslims, and some have even indignantly claimed that they are a deliberate
>> attempt to denigrate Muslims -- except that the Calormenes' religion in no
>> way resembles Islam, though it might bear some resemblance to pre-Islamic
>> religions of the Middle East.
>
> I've always felt it bears a resemblance to a pseudo-Christian bigot's idea
> of Islam.

I've heard a reasonable comment that the Calormene image might be
influenced by the Crusaders' image of their opponents. However the
Calormene religion is quite different from Islam!

The Calormenes and the Orcs were certainly very different. The Calormene
were shown as over-formal, over-civilized.


Bree
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Derek Broughton" wrote:
> [snip]
> > I've always felt it bears a resemblance to a pseudo-Christian
> > bigot's idea of Islam. I _hope_ Lewis didn't intend that, but
> > I'm afraid he might have.
>
> I think it is sadly likely to be the case.

So far, neither of you have actually said anything to defend this
position. I would be interested to see you try.
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

"Derek Broughton" <news.DeleteThis@pointerstop.ca> skrev i meddelandet
news:cgjve4-igb.ln1@pointerstop.ca...

[snip]

>> I have heard people say that the Calormenes in the Narnia books represent
>> Muslims, and some have even indignantly claimed that they are a
>> deliberate
>> attempt to denigrate Muslims -- except that the Calormenes' religion in
>> no
>> way resembles Islam, though it might bear some resemblance to pre-Islamic
>> religions of the Middle East.
>
> I've always felt it bears a resemblance to a pseudo-Christian bigot's idea
> of Islam. I _hope_ Lewis didn't intend that, but I'm afraid he might
> have.

I think it is sadly likely to be the case. On the other hand, the
pseudo-Indian or cod-Arabian look of Sauron's human allies was the work of
Peter Jackson, not of Tolkien. Tolkien mentions Southrons with red banners,
and black men riding oliphaunts, and short bearded men with battle-axes
marching up from the east, but none of that is proof of anything as far as
racial attitudes are concerned.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

"Steve Morrison" <rimagen.RemoveThis@toast.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:131q9j15hht1380@corp.supernews.com...

[snip]

> But I can't seriously see any of this as much more than the general
> picture of northwest Europe being invaded from the south and east,
> which Tolkien and Lewis inherited from traditional sources.

Furthermore, Tolkien himself observed that the Enemy had to dwell in the
East because the Blessed realm was in the west, just as in ancient Celtic
mythology. And during the First Age the Enemy dwelt in the north, which
became very cold and almost uninhabitable in the destuction following the
Battle of the Valar. So east and south were the only remaining points of the
compass.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:31:04 +0200, ?jevind L?ng wrote:

> "Steve Morrison" <rimagen DeleteThis @toast.net> skrev i meddelandet
> news:131q9j15hht1380@corp.supernews.com...
>
> [snip]
>
>> But I can't seriously see any of this as much more than the general
>> picture of northwest Europe being invaded from the south and east,
>> which Tolkien and Lewis inherited from traditional sources.

It wasn't too far off current events of the mid-century either. Didn't the
trains in Mordor run on time?


> Furthermore, Tolkien himself observed that the Enemy had to dwell in the
> East because the Blessed realm was in the west, just as in ancient Celtic
> mythology. And during the First Age the Enemy dwelt in the north, which
> became very cold and almost uninhabitable in the destuction following the
> Battle of the Valar.

Always winter and never whatits?


> So east and south were the only remaining points of the
> compass.

Yes. There was a bit of a point made in the book, Sam or someone saying
they had always thought things got warmer and merrier the further south,
and someone else explaining that Mordor was an exception.


Bree
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

Derek Broughton <news.TakeThisOut@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>Steve Hayes wrote:

>> I have heard people say that the Calormenes in the Narnia books represent
>> Muslims, and some have even indignantly claimed that they are a deliberate
>> attempt to denigrate Muslims -- except that the Calormenes' religion in no
>> way resembles Islam, though it might bear some resemblance to pre-Islamic
>> religions of the Middle East.

> I've always felt it bears a resemblance to a pseudo-Christian bigot's idea
> of Islam. I _hope_ Lewis didn't intend that, but I'm afraid he might have.

I think it's an echo of the view of 'Saracens' found in medieval
romance, worshipping a demonic trinity of Termagant, Apollyon, and
Mahound.

-M-
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:46:19 -0300, Derek Broughton <news.RemoveThis@pointerstop.ca>
wrote:

>Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>> I recently posted a note on my blog about the number of visitors from
>> Muslim countries at some web pages I maintain about Christianity and
>> literature.
>>
>> Someone commented in response that there had been discussion on the web
>> about Tolkien's orcs representing Arab Islamic armies.
>
>Only insofar as the LOTR films stressed an oriental look (not of the Orcs,
>but the human allies)... One can't fault Tolkien for that. Of course,
>Mordor is East of the civilized lands, too. I suppose you _can_ fault
>Tolkien for that - but it had to be _some_ direction.

And the west was sea.

>> I have heard people say that the Calormenes in the Narnia books represent
>> Muslims, and some have even indignantly claimed that they are a deliberate
>> attempt to denigrate Muslims -- except that the Calormenes' religion in no
>> way resembles Islam, though it might bear some resemblance to pre-Islamic
>> religions of the Middle East.
>
>I've always felt it bears a resemblance to a pseudo-Christian bigot's idea
>of Islam. I _hope_ Lewis didn't intend that, but I'm afraid he might have.

The society might have come out of the Arabian nights, but the religion is
more like Assyria/Babylon.


--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.librarything.com/catalog/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 12:56:09 -0700, Bree <no.TakeThisOut@no.com> wrote:

>The Calormenes and the Orcs were certainly very different. The Calormene
>were shown as over-formal, over-civilized.

That's what I thought.

The picture of orcs is more likely to have been influenced by the creatures of
20th-century dicatorships, the opposite of civilised, crude, cruel and
barbarous. If I recall correctly they were bread and brought up by Morgaoth to
be like that -- unable to create life of his own, he had to twist other
creatures. And that is the effect of the brainwashing and indoctrination
carried out by dictatorial regimes.
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.librarything.com/catalog/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 00:12:44 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
/snip/

> The picture of orcs is more likely to have been influenced by the creatures of
> 20th-century dicatorships, the opposite of civilised, crude, cruel and
> barbarous. If I recall correctly they were bread and brought up by Morgaoth to
> be like that -- unable to create life of his own, he had to twist other
> creatures. And that is the effect of the brainwashing and indoctrination
> carried out by dictatorial regimes.


Hm. Maybe I'm over-influenced by RPG, but I've always seen Orcs as Chaotic
Evil rather than Lawful Evil.

The Orcs who were carrying Merry and Pippin overland didn't seem very
lawful or indoctrinated. They seemed more like independent barbarians,
loosely allied, and always feuding with each other and not accepting
anyone's authority.


Bree
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

<nystulc.DeleteThis@cs.com> wrote:

<snip>

> To the extent that the Calormenes "represent" anything, it seems to
> mainly "represent" modern secular England.

<snip>

> The identification of Calormene with modern England was introduced as
> early as VOYAGE OF THE DAWN TREADER, where Eustace, the rotten child
> of "Modern" "Up-To-Date" Parents, and a champion of their "Modern" "Up-
> To-Date" values, rages about how backward and barbaric the Narnians
> are. In one of the diary scribblings he has favorable things to say
> about Calormen, which (to his mind) seems the least backward of all
> these nations. The reason why is obvious: Calormene is most like
> modern Britain.

Brilliant analysis. That identification of Calormene with modern secular
society works really well. Some of the dialogue of the Calormenes makes
sense in this context as well.

Christopher
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:18:12 -0500, Steve Morrison <rimagen DeleteThis @toast.net> wrote:

>But I can't seriously see any of this as much more than the general
>picture of northwest Europe being invaded from the south and east,
>which Tolkien and Lewis inherited from traditional sources.

The bloke who commented on my blog, Phil Johnson, has given some specifics:

I'll supply you with a few curious links from both Muslims and non-Muslims on
Tolkien (and Lewis) as anti-Islamic in their writings:

1. The actor Rhys-Davies (played Gimli) has stirred the pot about Islam and
LOTR see:
http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.18237/article_detail.asp

2. A message from a Muslim woman at the Canadian Council of Muslim Women
specifically mentions Narnia and LOTR see:
http://www.ccmw.com/GTAForum/ad_3.htm

3. A Muslim from Pakistan makes a few remarks about Islamic stereotypes and
Tolkien see:
http://www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1174_0_25_0_C39

4. Claims that Lewis and Tolkien were directly influenced by the medievalist
specialist Hilaire Belloc in their ideas about Islam and how that is reflected
in their stories -- this is by a Christian:

http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/ChurchAndMinistry/ChurchHistory/Crusa..._BaehrK

5. Claims that LOTR battles reflect crusaders vs Muslims:
http://radio.weblogs.com/0107946/2003/12/30.html

6. "Why the Left hates LOTR" see allusions to Muslims and orcs etc

http://www.stentorian.com/lotr.html

--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.librarything.com/catalog/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

In article <1176346580.772391.13260.DeleteThis@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
<nystulc.DeleteThis@cs.com> wrote:
>Seems to me that the Calormenes are clearly intended to be fictional.
>They are pagans (clearly unlike the Muslems, and I am quite certain
>Lewis understands the difference). Their culture seems inspired by
>(1) Babylonian, (2) Persian, (3) perhaps Muslim, and (perhaps most
>importantly) (4) the modern secular West.

I'd say (1), (2), of course; (3) if there's anything specifically
Muslim, as opposed to Arab, I don't know what it is; and (4) not at all
importantly. Unless you're thinking of _The Last Battle_ where the Ape
and the Tarkaan seem to have a program of industrialization and cutting
down forests for profit. But that bit feels rather forced into the
story to me. It's like, industrialization is Evil; Calormen is Evil;
therefore they're the same. I'm not convinced.

>... Hence, Lewis is suggesting to his
>target audience (English children) that they live in enemy territory,
>and if they would seek out a more wholesome environment, community,
>and value system, they must undertake similar spiritual journeys, and
>make similar sacrifices, to that of Aravis, Shasta, Hwin and Bree.

Yes, undoubtedly, "journey out of enemy territory" is a valid reading.
But this reading doesn't require Calormen=England. Quite the opposite,
Lewis is constantly pointing out how exotic the setting is to the
reader. What do we see in Calormen?

-- Most obviously, slavery, which to an English child would be obviously
horrible *and* obviously could only happen long ago and far away. An
extreme divide between rich and poor, with fanciful luxuries for the rich:
like baths of asses' milk, which the reader probably never heard of before.
Noblemen have strange status symbols, like dyeing their beards.
Certainly no mass-produced consumer products marketed to the proles.

-- An absolute dictatorship where the king has the cook killed if he
doesn't like his dinner, and people are forced to pretend they think
he's going to live forever. Also, the story doesn't say explicitly,
but he's unlikely to have 18 sons without a big harem. Exotic again.

-- Fathers forcing their daughters to marry at a young age -- something
that is explained explicitly, *because* it's different from what the
reader is used to.

-- Flowery, elaborate, formal language with many circumlocutions, much
different from Shasta's "normal" speech (and must have been tremendous
fun to write!). And noble youths are trained in storytelling, which is
specifically contrasted with English schools: "people wanted to hear
the stories, but nobody wants to read the essays".

>The identification of Calormene with modern England was introduced as
>early as VOYAGE OF THE DAWN TREADER, where Eustace, the rotten child
>of "Modern" "Up-To-Date" Parents, and a champion of their "Modern" "Up-
>To-Date" values, rages about how backward and barbaric the Narnians
>are. In one of the diary scribblings he has favorable things to say
>about Calormen, which (to his mind) seems the least backward of all
>these nations. The reason why is obvious: Calormene is most like
>modern Britain.

Wellll, they are said to have more trade and wealth than Narnia, which
is what Eustace approves, but at that point they're mainly
characterized by *slavery*, and by elaborate formal language. Even
Eustace of the beginning of the book wouldn't actually enjoy Calormen,
he's just rooting for them because they're against Narnia and so is
he.

In short, Calormen is a fairy-tale land, which is morally inferior to
Narnia in different ways than England is. England is represented by
England, in the beginning/end bits of _Dawn Treader_ and _The Silver
Chair_.
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

Steve Hayes wrote:
>
> 2. A message from a Muslim woman at the Canadian Council of Muslim Women
> specifically mentions Narnia and LOTR see:
> http://www.ccmw.com/GTAForum/ad_3.htm

It is interesting to note there are Muslims with an inclination to
detoxify their religion. They can flourish in the place like Canada or
the U.S.. In th middle east these women would be stoned, burned or beheaded.

The tendency in Islam is toward its worst extremities. That is why,
after 1400 years it nas not detoxified itself, whereas main steam
Christianity and Judiasm has been detoxified. You generally do not see
Christian zealots stealing airplanes and crashing them into tall
buildings. The worst you see is the occassional Christian fundie
shooting abortionists. But this happens once ever ten years or so and is
an isolated event.

Bob Kolker
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection?