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External
Since: Dec 07, 2007
Posts: 12
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(Msg. 121) Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>cs-lewis (more info?)
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Bree (no@onoe.com) wrote:
> On 20 Apr 2007 21:37:18'm aGMT, Bill Baldwin wrote:
>
>> Matthew Collett (m.collett@auckland.ac.nz) wrote:
>>> Bill Baldwin <bbwebpage+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I understand your point, but I don't entirely agree. To a
>>>> certain extent this hinges on the difference between worshiping
>>>> the true God falsely and worshiping a false God. Do you agree
>>>> that there is a point where the situation stops being the
>>>> former and starts being the latter?
>>>
>>> I consider the notion of a false transcendent God (as opposed to
>>> a false immanent god) to be incoherent. There is by
>>> metaphysical necessity only one such being, and no conceptual
>>> space for even the idea of a 'false' one to be meaningful. All
>>> who worship a transcendent God necessarily worship the same one,
>>> no matter how divergent their views on his nature, actions and
>>> desires.
>>>
>>
>> I understand where you're coming from philosophically. I'm not
>> sure how Lewis would see it. But Biblically, I don't see that
>> transcendence is the sufficient condition distinguishing worship
>> of the true God from worship of a false one.
>
>
> I think it was in MC that Lewis, speaking of Christians he
> disagreed with, said something like { I'm afraid those people are
> worshipping an imaginary God. ]
>
That would certainly be germane to this discussion. I can't put my
finger on the quote, though. Unpack your books and have a go!
--
Bill Baldwin
http://bettercovenant.wordpress.com/ |
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Since: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 13
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(Msg. 122) Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:55 pm
Post subject: worshipping an imaginary god? (was: Inklings and Islam is there a connection?) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 21 Apr 2007 14:55:34 GMT, Bill Baldwin wrote:
/snip/
Bree:
>> I think it was in MC that Lewis, speaking of Christians he
>> disagreed with, said something like { I'm afraid those people are
>> worshipping an imaginary God. ]
>>
>
> That would certainly be germane to this discussion. I can't put my
> finger on the quote, though. Unpack your books and have a go!
I wish I could!
I think it may have been in the "Christian Behavior" section, perhaps under
"Pride"? A comment following something about the warm-blooded sins vs the
cold-hearted virtues?
Bree
no lilies and langours, tho |
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Since: Mar 15, 2005
Posts: 128
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(Msg. 123) Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>cs-lewis, others (more info?)
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On Apr 16, 2:00?pm, Steve Hayes <hayesm... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Allah IS the Christian God.
>
> Tash is not.
>
> --
> Steve Hayes
Does Allah exist as three persons in one Godhead? If not then I think
it would be difficult to say they are the same. One would think at
least the Apostle's Creed would be necessary to define a Christian,
otherwise (as Dorothy Sayers noted) you just have chaos.
Daryl >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? |
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Since: Sep 05, 2004
Posts: 197
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(Msg. 124) Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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darylgene.TakeThisOut@aol.com wrote:
> On Apr 16, 2:00?pm, Steve Hayes <hayesm....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Allah IS the Christian God.
>>
>> Tash is not.
>>
>> --
>> Steve Hayes
>
>
> Does Allah exist as three persons in one Godhead? If not then I think
> it would be difficult to say they are the same. One would think at
> least the Apostle's Creed would be necessary to define a Christian,
> otherwise (as Dorothy Sayers noted) you just have chaos.
It doesn't matter as long as Islam clearly insists that Abraham spoke to
Allah and that Jesus was sent by Allah. It is not necessary (or even
possible) for a Christian to maintain that Mohammed was wholly right,
but it cuts off all possibility of reasoned debate to say that Mohammed
did not mean what he said. I would excise the Mormons from the world of
(shall we say?) El Shaddai before Islam.
--
John W. Kennedy
Read the remains of Shakespeare's lost play, now annotated!
http://pws.prserv.net/jwkennedy/Double%20Falshood/index.html
* TagZilla 0.066 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? |
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Since: Oct 28, 2006
Posts: 9
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(Msg. 125) Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <1177202565.670715.35110.RemoveThis@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
"darylgene@aol.com" <darylgene.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
<snip>
>
> Does Allah exist as three persons in one Godhead? If not then I think
> it would be difficult to say they are the same. One would think at
> least the Apostle's Creed would be necessary to define a Christian,
> otherwise (as Dorothy Sayers noted) you just have chaos.
That strikes me as a rather parochial view. Various sects identifying
themselves as Christian deny the trinitarian view (the Unitarians being
the most obvious example); I imagine one could find several points from
the creed that are contested by one group or another. Are they all lying
when they claim to be Christians?
--
Odysseus >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? |
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Since: Jun 10, 2006
Posts: 268
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(Msg. 126) Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Odysseus" <odysseus1479-at.RemoveThis@yahoo-dot.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:odysseus1479-at-AA6BF4.12405922042007@news.telus.net...
[snip]
> That strikes me as a rather parochial view. Various sects identifying
> themselves as Christian deny the trinitarian view (the Unitarians being
> the most obvious example); I imagine one could find several points from
> the creed that are contested by one group or another. Are they all lying
> when they claim to be Christians?
I wouldn't say so. The Monophysite Christians of Egypt and Ethiopia deny the
human side of Jesus and only accept his divine side. I have seen them called
"heretics" by western Christians, but not any suggestion that they aren't
Christians.
Öjevind >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? |
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Since: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 71
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(Msg. 127) Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:20 am
Post subject: Re: worshipping an imaginary god? (was: Inklings and Islam is there a connection?) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>cs-lewis (more info?)
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On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:16:25 UTC, Bree <no.TakeThisOut@onoe.com> wrote:
>...
> I think it may have been in the "Christian Behavior" section, perhaps under
> "Pride"? A comment following something about the warm-blooded sins vs the
> cold-hearted virtues?
I don't remember that distinction from Lewis; it's in Dorothy L Sayers's
"The Other Six Deadly Sins".
Then again, my memory may be enfeebled. No, it *is*, I mean in this case
it may be wrong.
--
Dan Drake
dd.TakeThisOut@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? |
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Since: Mar 19, 2005
Posts: 133
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(Msg. 128) Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:24 am
Post subject: Re: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>cs-lewis, others (more info?)
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Since: Mar 19, 2005
Posts: 133
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(Msg. 129) Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:31 am
Post subject: Re: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 19:08:48 GMT, "William Cloud Hicklin"
<icelofangeln DeleteThis @mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:42:45 -0400, darylgene DeleteThis @aol.com <darylgene DeleteThis @aol.com>
>wrote:
>
>> On Apr 16, 2:00?pm, Steve Hayes <hayesm... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Allah IS the Christian God.
>>>
>>> Tash is not.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Steve Hayes
>>
>>
>> Does Allah exist as three persons in one Godhead? If not then I think
>> it would be difficult to say they are the same. One would think at
>> least the Apostle's Creed would be necessary to define a Christian,
>> otherwise (as Dorothy Sayers noted) you just have chaos.
>>
>
>Not even all Christians believe that, or at least attach the same meaning
>to it. Check out the Copts, Assyrians, and other Nestorian and
>Monophysite churches (which BTW hold completely opposite positions,
>neither of which fits comfortably with the Chalcedonian doctrine of the
>Trinity followed by the Latin and Greek worlds)
The Copts certainly believe that Allah is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and use
the same Symbol of Faith as Greek Orthodox Christians, though neither use the
"Apostles Creed".
But Tash does not resemble Allah in either Christian, Muslim or Jewish
understandings.
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.librarything.com/catalog/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? |
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Since: Mar 15, 2005
Posts: 128
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(Msg. 130) Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Apr 22, 11:41�am, Odysseus <odysseus1479... RemoveThis @yahoo-dot.com> wrote:
> In article <1177202565.670715.35... RemoveThis @y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
>
> "darylg...@aol.com" <darylg... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> > Does Allah exist as three persons in one Godhead? If not then I think
> > it would be difficult to say they are the same. One would think at
> > least the Apostle's Creed would be necessary to define a Christian,
> > otherwise (as Dorothy Sayers noted) you just have chaos.
>
> That strikes me as a rather parochial view. Various sects identifying
> themselves as Christian deny the trinitarian view (the Unitarians being
> the most obvious example); I imagine one could find several points from
> the creed that are contested by one group or another. Are they all lying
> when they claim to be Christians?
>
> --
> Odysseus
What would you say it means to be a Christian? If it really doesn't
mean anything other than a person "calls" themselves one, I suppose
you are correct in questioning my position. To me, at least adherence
to the first two creeds, however broadly viewed, provides the
delineation. I am curious where you would draw the line, somewhere the
beliefs become so different that they constitute a wholly different
belief system. (no I do not consider Unitarians, Mormans and several
other groups that call themselves "Christian" to be. if that is
parochial, so be it, I suppose I am parochial then)
Daryl >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? |
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Since: Sep 05, 2004
Posts: 197
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(Msg. 131) Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Odysseus" <odysseus1479-at.DeleteThis@yahoo-dot.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:odysseus1479-at-AA6BF4.12405922042007@news.telus.net...
>
> [snip]
>
>> That strikes me as a rather parochial view. Various sects identifying
>> themselves as Christian deny the trinitarian view (the Unitarians being
>> the most obvious example); I imagine one could find several points from
>> the creed that are contested by one group or another. Are they all lying
>> when they claim to be Christians?
>
> I wouldn't say so. The Monophysite Christians of Egypt and Ethiopia deny the
> human side of Jesus and only accept his divine side.
No they don't: they regard him as having only one -- I will use your
word -- side, but they maintain that His human side was swallowed up by
the divine, not that He had none -- that would be the Apolliniarian
heresy, which is long extinct.
--
John W. Kennedy
"Never try to take over the international economy based on a radical
feminist agenda if you're not sure your leader isn't a transvestite."
-- David Misch: "She-Spies", "While You Were Out"
* TagZilla 0.066 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? |
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Since: Sep 05, 2004
Posts: 197
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(Msg. 132) Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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darylgene DeleteThis @aol.com wrote:
> On Apr 16, 2:00?pm, Steve Hayes <hayesm... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Allah IS the Christian God.
>>
>> Tash is not.
>>
>> --
>> Steve Hayes
>
>
> Does Allah exist as three persons in one Godhead? If not then I think
> it would be difficult to say they are the same. One would think at
> least the Apostle's Creed would be necessary to define a Christian,
> otherwise (as Dorothy Sayers noted) you just have chaos.
The so-called Apostle's Creed is exclusively Western. It is the
so-called Nicene Creed (actually the Niceo-Constantinopolitan) that is
more or less universal, apart from the "Filioque" controversy.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The grand art mastered the thudding hammer of Thor
And the heart of our lord Taliessin determined the war."
-- Charles Williams. "Mount Badon"
* TagZilla 0.066 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? |
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Since: Jun 10, 2006
Posts: 268
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(Msg. 133) Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:59 am
Post subject: Re: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Bill Baldwin" <bbwebpage+usenet@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:Xns991DE8B509EF0bbwebpage@130.133.1.4...
> darylgene RemoveThis @aol.com (darylgene@aol.com) wrote:
>> What would you say it means to be a Christian? If it really
>> doesn't mean anything other than a person "calls" themselves one,
>> I suppose you are correct in questioning my position. To me, at
>> least adherence to the first two creeds, however broadly viewed,
>> provides the delineation. I am curious where you would draw the
>> line, somewhere the beliefs become so different that they
>> constitute a wholly different belief system. (no I do not consider
>> Unitarians, Mormans and several other groups that call themselves
>> "Christian" to be. if that is parochial, so be it, I suppose I am
>> parochial then)
>
> Part of the problem is that people think it's an insult if you say
> that this group or that person is "not Christian." Lewis addresses
> this when he talks about how "Christian" has become a value judgment
> rather than an objective label.
>
> But things do get complicated when different groups claim the label
> and yet differ on what the objective standard is. I guess we just
> have to live with that and be clear about what we mean. So we say for
> example that Mormons are not Christian and hope that we won't have to
> deal with responses that act as though we've called them axe-
> murderers or have denied that they would call themselves Christians.
To my knowledge, Mormons do not regard themselves as Chrsitians, since they
think that Joseph Smith was the fourth great Prophet (after Adam, Moses and
Jesus.) They call Christians and other non-Mormons "Gentiles".
Öjevind >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? |
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Posts: 238
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(Msg. 134) Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:12 am
Post subject: Re: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Bree" <no RemoveThis @onoe.com> wrote in message
news:1xhyvjpuzibpi.1h9yenrnkq553$.dlg@40tude.net...
> On 25 Apr 2007 19:16:54 GMT, Bill Baldwin wrote:
> Working back towards topic, suppose someone claims that he worships a God
> who appeared to most Narnians as a Lion, to the Dawn Treader people as a
> Lamb, to Orual as the Mountain God, and to others as a man in Jerusalem.
>
>
> Bree
Good point. God said, I am who I will be. Reading the Bible straight
through it appears that God reveals God in differing and dynamic ways. I
agree with Daryl's or his pastor that relationship with God is key. A
relationship built around the Great Commandment would be a place to start.
Not to dredge up old ground however fertile, but appendix of _The Abolition
of Man_ anyone?
Blessings,
Ann >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? |
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Since: Feb 06, 2004
Posts: 238
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(Msg. 135) Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:22 am
Post subject: Re: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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<darylgene.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1177375870.074684.261800@b58g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
There are existential differences
between a God that became a man and one that was solely divine, so
again I would ask, how are they the same God?
Daryl
Maybe different people, not a different God.
I've heard it said, wisely I think, that if God had strictly defined God for
all in the world to see and accept at once, would one continue to seek God?
Blessings,
Ann >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? |
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