Inklings and Islam is there a connection?

>
> The tendency in Islam is toward its worst extremities. That is why,
> after 1400 years it nas not detoxified itself, whereas main steam
> Christianity and Judiasm has been detoxified.

Some say it this way: that Islam never had a Reformation.
Blessings,
Ann
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

On 12 Apr 2007 14:25:14 -0700, nystulc RemoveThis @cs.com wrote:
/snip/

> But some people are determined to find "allegory", and are desperately
> looking for parallels. And meaningful parallels and messages,
> intended by the author, are indeed present, but they are not the sort
> that critics carelessly assume.

/snip/

> Yes, Calormen and England are different. Judas and Edmund are
> different. Satan and Jadis are different. Satan and Tash are
> different. Even the Second Person of the Trinity has incarnations, in
> each world, which are intentionally different. Ultimately, Lewis is
> writing fantasy, not allegory. But there are parallels and moral
> messages, which are intentional


It depends on how LONG the parallels are, so to speak. Edmund's line runs
parallel to Eve with Turkish Delight and temptation to power, with Judas
for betrayal, with others for being rescued, with others for becoming the
most furious enemy of the Witch.

Also, one element, say Calormen, can have different sides paralleling (for
short times) different things which are not parallel to each other. And
some of the things aren't even theolgical: a princess fleeing from an
arranged marriage to an old man, is a fairy tale trope, not a theological
one.


Bree
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> Brilliant analysis. That identification of Calormene with modern secular
> society works really well. Some of the dialogue of the Calormenes makes
> sense in this context as well.

Lasaraleen is certainly a modern Western figure.

And at least part of the "Easternness" of Calormene is due, I believe,
to Lewis's love of Firdausi. (He wrote a poem retelling the legend of
how Firdausi received payment for the Shah-Nameh.)

--
John W. Kennedy
"But now is a new thing which is very old--
that the rich make themselves richer and not poorer,
which is the true Gospel, for the poor's sake."
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
* TagZilla 0.066 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:23:00 UTC, Robert Kolker <nowhere.TakeThisOut@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>...
>
> The tendency in Islam is toward its worst extremities. That is why,
> after 1400 years it nas not detoxified itself, whereas main steam
> Christianity and Judiasm has been detoxified.

Christianity after 1400+ years: the Spanish Inquisition
Christianity after precisely 1600 years: Giordano Bruno & the Thrity Years
War. (Hey, great name for a rock group.)
Let's get down and offensive: Judaism after 1X00 years: Guess what event
relevant to Christianity.

Be fair: give them another 600 years, and then compare.

Better yet, drop this nonsensical comparison business; doing so can only
help speed the improvement of Islam *and* Christianity.

Am I feeding the trolls? If so, sorry.


--
Dan Drake
dd.TakeThisOut@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:45:44 UTC, Larry Swain <theswain RemoveThis @operamail.com>
wrote:

>... [excellent reply snipped]
>
> Second, I'd say that both TOlkien and Lewis were far more influenced by
> general anti-semitic attitudes current in European culture than anything
> as specific as Belloc.

Yes, but I think Lewis deserves some credit as the least anti-Semitic of
modern actively Christian English writers. I can think of only one
incident in his work that shows, or implies, a negative Jewish stereotype,
and that's a fairly trivial incident in The Great Divorce. Others' mileage
may vary, and I wouldn't mind hearing about it. (Sometimes I'm not attuned
to European versions of stereotypes, having been raised among the American
ones. Really.)

>... Seeing orcs as Muslims seems to me
> to be as much a misreading as that (or as seeing the recent movie The
> 300 as an anti-Iranian Bush administration diatribe).
>
(Have you told the bloggers who LOVE that movie that they're seeing it all
wrong?


--
Dan Drake
dd RemoveThis @dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 02:56:20 UTC, nystulc DeleteThis @cs.com wrote:

> Seems to me that the Calormenes are clearly intended to be fictional.
> They are pagans (clearly unlike the Muslems, and I am quite certain
> Lewis understands the difference).

Considering that he has been duly criticized for describing Islam as
basically a Christian heresy, it seems clear that he understood. (Oh, and
his idea of how Muhammad would react if you asked him whether he was the
son of Allah: not even a little bit pagan.)


--
Dan Drake
dd DeleteThis @dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

On 12 Apr 2007 18:48:02 GMT, Dan Drake wrote:
/snip/

> (Oh, and
> his idea of how Muhammad would react if you asked him whether he was the
> son of Allah: not even a little bit pagan.)


A wonderful image of a naked executioner though.


Bree
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 14:34:56 -0400, Dan Drake <dd DeleteThis @dandrake.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:23:00 UTC, Robert Kolker <nowhere DeleteThis @nowhere.com>
> wrote:
>
>> ...
>>
>> The tendency in Islam is toward its worst extremities. That is why,
>> after 1400 years it nas not detoxified itself, whereas main steam
>> Christianity and Judiasm has been detoxified.
>
> Christianity after 1400+ years: the Spanish Inquisition
> Christianity after precisely 1600 years: Giordano Bruno & the Thrity
> Years
> War. (Hey, great name for a rock group.)
> Let's get down and offensive: Judaism after 1X00 years: Guess what event
> relevant to Christianity.
>
> Be fair: give them another 600 years, and then compare.
>

You're overlooking the fact that the Inquisition etc. were perversions of
Christianity, directly contrary to the teachings of its Founder.
Unfortunately bin-Laden & Co. are doing precisely what their founder
commanded.



--
Tolkien's written work is characterized by disputes over the ownership of
jewelry, and the hand injuries that occur as a result.
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> <nystulc DeleteThis @cs.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:1176347538.034341.50240@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> Öjevind Lång wrote:
> > "Derek Broughton" wrote:
> [snip]
> >> I think it is sadly likely to be the case.
>
> >So far, neither of you have actually said anything to defend this
> position. I would be interested to see you try.
>
> OK, here goes. The Calormenes speak like people in "The Arabian
> Nights". ("O, father of my happiness, your wisdom is like a
> fountain in the burning desert" - that kind of thing.)

At best, this connects them to a pre-muslim legend of a the Persian
queen Scheherezade who was also a magnificent storyteller. These
legends were preserved, retold, and added to by the MUSLIM culture
that followed, but they are, essentially, secular and/or pagan works
about a pre-muslim era.

> They sport slippers, [...]

I believe those are known as "PERSIAN slippers." I'm not sure how
ancient they are, but I also suspect that reliable sources for ancient
persian dress are a bit rare. I'm sure Pauline Baines did the best
she could.

> beards and

The ancient Persians wore beards.

> curved scimitars,

The Persian dynasty in the immediate pre-Muslim era used straight
swords for warfare, and apparently used scimitars for hunting, but the
ancient Persians, at around the time of the Greco-Persian war,
apparently used curved swords (at least according to Greek
depictions).

> and the women wear wide trousers.

I don't recall Lewis ever mentioning this, but Aravis is depicted
wearing panatloons in certain illustrations by Pauline Baynes. The
Persians had such garments (called Shalvar), though I don't know if
this extended into ancient times.

You neglected to mention "turbans". The ancient Persians wore conical
caps surrounded by cloth turbans, rather similar, it seems, to the
Calormens.

> The names seem vaguely
> "oriental" - Arsheesh, Shasta, Lasaraleen, Tashbaan.

"Tash" and "Aslan" are, respectively, Turkish words for "Stone" and
"Lion." I don't know about the others, except that I agree they seem
"vaguely oriental". I cannot see any particular Muslim associations.

Tisroc is apparently inspired by "Nisroch" an ancient Assyrian diety
who resembles Tash.

> Pauline
> Baynes, who was no fool, obviously perceived them as West Asian,
> considering how she chose to depict them - apparently without
> Lewis objecting.

Oh, I agree completely. Lewis clearly does have pagan Babylon and
ancient Persia in mind, as does his illustrator, as a model for his
pagan culture.

But I thought you were trying to prove something else.
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

William Cloud Hicklin <icelofangeln RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately bin-Laden & Co. are doing precisely what their founder
> commanded.

I have heard Muslims say otherwise.

BTW, Germany has a comparatively high percentage of Muslim immigrants.
The majority of those don't behave like Bin-Laden & Co. So either
they are all in rebellion against what their founder commanded, or
maybe the whole thing is a little bit more complex...

- Dirk, preparing to EOT if this gets any more political
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 15:43:09 -0400, Dirk Thierbach
<dthierbach.RemoveThis@usenet.arcornews.de> wrote:

> William Cloud Hicklin <icelofangeln.RemoveThis@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> Unfortunately bin-Laden & Co. are doing precisely what their founder
>> commanded.
>
> I have heard Muslims say otherwise.
>
> BTW, Germany has a comparatively high percentage of Muslim immigrants.
> The majority of those don't behave like Bin-Laden & Co. So either
> they are all in rebellion against what their founder commanded, or
> maybe the whole thing is a little bit more complex...
>

There's no need to wage jihad by violence where you can wage it by
demographics. Conquest by other means, but conquest all the same.



--
Tolkien's written work is characterized by disputes over the ownership of
jewelry, and the hand injuries that occur as a result.
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

<nystulc.RemoveThis@cs.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:1176347538.034341.50240@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Derek Broughton" wrote:

[snip]

>> I think it is sadly likely to be the case.

>So far, neither of you have actually said anything to defend this
position. I would be interested to see you try.

OK, here goes. The Calormenes speak like people in "The Arabian Nights".
("O, father of my happiness, your wisdom is like a fountain in the burning
desert" - that kind of thing.) They sport slippers, beards and curved
scimitars, and the women wear wide trousers. The names seem vaguely
"oriental" - Arsheesh, Shasta, Lasaraleen, Tashbaan. Pauline Baynes, who was
no fool, obviously perceived them as West Asian, considering how she chose
to depict them - apparently without Lewis objecting.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

"Bree" <no.DeleteThis@no.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:1lktqos0zn7z8.1otx8mkpqn3f5$.dlg@40tude.net...

[snip]

>> Furthermore, Tolkien himself observed that the Enemy had to dwell in the
>> East because the Blessed realm was in the west, just as in ancient Celtic
>> mythology. And during the First Age the Enemy dwelt in the north, which
>> became very cold and almost uninhabitable in the destuction following the
>> Battle of the Valar.
>
> Always winter and never whatits?

Oh, dear. I hope no one finds a fragment where Tolkien describes a jolly
spirit of nature in the Elder Age who wore read clothes and had a white
beard and said "Ho, ho, ho!" as he handed out gifts at Yuletide.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection?