Inklings and Islam is there a connection?

Öjevind Lång (bredband.net@ojevind.lang) wrote:
> skrev i meddelandet:
> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>> "Derek Broughton" wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>> I think it is sadly likely to be the case.
>
>>So far, neither of you have actually said anything to defend this
> position. I would be interested to see you try.
>
> OK, here goes. The Calormenes speak like people in "The Arabian
> Nights". ("O, father of my happiness, your wisdom is like a
> fountain in the burning desert" - that kind of thing.) They sport
> slippers, beards and curved scimitars, and the women wear wide
> trousers. The names seem vaguely "oriental" - Arsheesh, Shasta,
> Lasaraleen, Tashbaan. Pauline Baynes, who was no fool, obviously
> perceived them as West Asian, considering how she chose to depict
> them - apparently without Lewis objecting.
>

But that has more to do with Arabians than with Islam, right? I
understand the criticism that Calormen is a racist and prejudicial
portrayal of pre-Islamic Arabic culture. (I don't really agree with
it.) But I think it takes a further imaginative leap to connect that
with criticism of muslims.

--
Opus the Penguin
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

Larry Swain wrote:
> Matthew Woodcraft wrote:

<snip>

>> I think it's an echo of the view of 'Saracens' found in medieval
>> romance, worshipping a demonic trinity of Termagant, Apollyon, and
>> Mahound.
>>
> Ah, a reader of Song of Roland in our midst!!

Now you are showing off!
What is this Song of Roland?
Are the Calormenes Saracens?
Are the Narnians Crusader Knights?
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

Dan Drake wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:45:44 UTC, Larry Swain <theswain DeleteThis @operamail.com>
> wrote:


<snip>

>> ... Seeing orcs as Muslims seems to me
>> to be as much a misreading as that (or as seeing the recent movie The
>> 300 as an anti-Iranian Bush administration diatribe).
>>
> (Have you told the bloggers who LOVE that movie that they're seeing
> it all wrong?

Really? They don't know their history (Thermopylae and all that), or they
are just projecting? Seriously, badly, projecting.
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

Opus the Penguin wrote:
> Öjevind Lång (bredband.net@ojevind.lang) wrote:
>
>>skrev i meddelandet:
>>Öjevind Lång wrote:
>>
>>>"Derek Broughton" wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>
>>>>I think it is sadly likely to be the case.
>>
>>>So far, neither of you have actually said anything to defend this
>>
>>position. I would be interested to see you try.
>>
>>OK, here goes. The Calormenes speak like people in "The Arabian
>>Nights". ("O, father of my happiness, your wisdom is like a
>>fountain in the burning desert" - that kind of thing.) They sport
>>slippers, beards and curved scimitars, and the women wear wide
>>trousers. The names seem vaguely "oriental" - Arsheesh, Shasta,
>>Lasaraleen, Tashbaan. Pauline Baynes, who was no fool, obviously
>>perceived them as West Asian, considering how she chose to depict
>>them - apparently without Lewis objecting.
>>
>
>
> But that has more to do with Arabians than with Islam, right? I
> understand the criticism that Calormen is a racist and prejudicial
> portrayal of pre-Islamic Arabic culture. (I don't really agree with
> it.) But I think it takes a further imaginative leap to connect that
> with criticism of muslims.
>

As pointed out up thread, it is interesting that the majority of the
stories in the Arabian Nights actually pre-date the Arabs being in the
area and are in fact Persian in origin, not Arabic at all.
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

William Cloud Hicklin <icelofangeln.TakeThisOut@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 15:43:09 -0400, Dirk Thierbach
> <dthierbach.TakeThisOut@usenet.arcornews.de> wrote:

>> William Cloud Hicklin <icelofangeln.TakeThisOut@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>> Unfortunately bin-Laden & Co. are doing precisely what their founder
>>> commanded.

>> I have heard Muslims say otherwise.

>> BTW, Germany has a comparatively high percentage of Muslim immigrants.
>> The majority of those don't behave like Bin-Laden & Co. So either
>> they are all in rebellion against what their founder commanded, or
>> maybe the whole thing is a little bit more complex...
>>

> There's no need to wage jihad by violence where you can wage it by
> demographics.

You're not seriously proposing that all Muslims have as only goal the
jihad against everyone else, are you? So what's next? Send all Muslims
to Guantanamo, because they are potentially dangerous? Or maybe it's
easier to just set up concentration camps?

Christians have been doing crusades under the pretext that "God commanded
it." Can we now conclude that all Christians have as their only goal
war on non-christians, and are doing exactly what they religion tells
them to? Please get real.

I know some Muslims personally, and they are basically nice, ordinary
people. Very hospitable once you get to know them. Of course there
are also Muslim fanatics, in the same way there are Christian fanatics,
but that doesn't mean all of them are that way.

I really get worried when even intelligent people buy into completely
exaggerated prejudices. Terrorists are terrorists, no matter if they
are Muslim fundamentlists, Christian fundamentalists, or right-wing or
left-wing fundamentalists (we had some examples of the latter three types
in our history here). But that doesn't mean that the ideology
they represent in their original form is necessarily geared towards
fundamentalism and terrorism.

- Dirk, EOT, because that has nothing to do with Tolkien
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

Dan Drake wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:45:44 UTC, Larry Swain <theswain.DeleteThis@operamail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>... [excellent reply snipped]
>>
>>Second, I'd say that both TOlkien and Lewis were far more influenced by
>>general anti-semitic attitudes current in European culture than anything
>>as specific as Belloc.
>
>
> Yes, but I think Lewis deserves some credit as the least anti-Semitic of
> modern actively Christian English writers. I can think of only one
> incident in his work that shows, or implies, a negative Jewish stereotype,
> and that's a fairly trivial incident in The Great Divorce. Others' mileage
> may vary, and I wouldn't mind hearing about it. (Sometimes I'm not attuned
> to European versions of stereotypes, having been raised among the American
> ones. Really.)
>
>
>>... Seeing orcs as Muslims seems to me
>>to be as much a misreading as that (or as seeing the recent movie The
>>300 as an anti-Iranian Bush administration diatribe).
>>
>
> (Have you told the bloggers who LOVE that movie that they're seeing it all
> wrong?
>
>
I was talking about the books rather than the movies. PJ's
characterization is a different story altogether, but Tolkien can't be
held responsible for how PJ misread the book.
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

Dan Drake wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:45:44 UTC, Larry Swain <theswain.RemoveThis@operamail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>... [excellent reply snipped]
>>
>>Second, I'd say that both TOlkien and Lewis were far more influenced by
>>general anti-semitic attitudes current in European culture than anything
>>as specific as Belloc.
>
>
> Yes, but I think Lewis deserves some credit as the least anti-Semitic of
> modern actively Christian English writers. I can think of only one
> incident in his work that shows, or implies, a negative Jewish stereotype,
> and that's a fairly trivial incident in The Great Divorce. Others' mileage
> may vary, and I wouldn't mind hearing about it. (Sometimes I'm not attuned
> to European versions of stereotypes, having been raised among the American
> ones. Really.)
>
>
>>... Seeing orcs as Muslims seems to me
>>to be as much a misreading as that (or as seeing the recent movie The
>>300 as an anti-Iranian Bush administration diatribe).
>>
>
> (Have you told the bloggers who LOVE that movie that they're seeing it all
> wrong?
>
>
Or were you talking about The 300? There are bloggers who love the
movie who think that The 300 is a anti-Iranian Bush diatribe? Point me
to some and I'd be glad to tell them they're seeing it all wrong.
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 08:08:26 +0200, Dirk Thierbach wrote:
> William Cloud Hicklin <icelofangeln.TakeThisOut@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 15:43:09 -0400, Dirk Thierbach
>> <dthierbach.TakeThisOut@usenet.arcornews.de> wrote:
>>> William Cloud Hicklin <icelofangeln.TakeThisOut@mindspring.com> wrote:

>>>> Unfortunately bin-Laden & Co. are doing precisely what their founder
>>>> commanded.

EVERYONE claims to be doing what his founder commanded.

/snip/
> Christians have been doing crusades under the pretext that "God commanded
> it."

It was the Pope and other mainstream leaders who endorsed the Crusades and
the Inquisitions etc. The current Muslim terrorists are a splinter minority
heresy of Muslims, condemed by the majority and by the mainstream leaders.

I've seen a Muslim quoted as saying something like: "We hate the terrorists
worse than you do. We think they are also heretics, blaspheming Allah by
claiming He wants this."

> - Dirk, EOT, because that has nothing to do with Tolkien

Me too, and not planning to continue in this off topic direction.


Bree
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:08:26 -0400, Dirk Thierbach
<dthierbach RemoveThis @usenet.arcornews.de> wrote:

> Christians have been doing crusades under the pretext that "God commanded
> it." Can we now conclude that all Christians have as their only goal
> war on non-christians, and are doing exactly what they religion tells
> them to? Please get real.

Please stop bringing up millennium-old events. The jihad is taking place
*right now*. But, if you insist on the comparison- the Crusades were
entirely voluntary. *All* Muslims are commanded to wage jihad (or
contribute to it, if personally unable). Perhaps the worst perversion of
Christianiy associated with the Crusades was the notion of 'holy
violence:' God wants 'em dead, if you get killed you go straight to
Heaven. Gee, where did Pope Urban get such a wild idea? Oh, that's
right... Islam. Except that the Muslim version is hard-coded into the
Quran, the Word of Allah > Gabriel > Muhammed.

I don't doubt that Muslims you know deny it. Just like old people you
know deny ever having supported the NSDAP. I'm sure Muhammed Atta didn't
run around Hamburg shouting "Death to America." It's called 'taqqiyah,'
roughly the same as KGB-speak 'disinformazia." Essentially, "Pay no
attention to the man behind the curtain. Nobody in here but us chickens.
Just go to sleep."

--
Tolkien's written work is characterized by disputes over the ownership of
jewelry, and the hand injuries that occur as a result.
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:08:26 -0400, Dirk Thierbach
<dthierbach.DeleteThis@usenet.arcornews.de> wrote:

> I really get worried when even intelligent people buy into completely
> exaggerated prejudices.

After all, it's not like they've actually, you know, *attacked* us or
anything....

> Terrorists are terrorists, no matter if they
> are Muslim fundamentlists, Christian fundamentalists, or right-wing or
> left-wing fundamentalists (we had some examples of the latter three types
> in our history here).

All four. Perhaps you're forgetting the World Cup bomb plot?


> But that doesn't mean that the ideology
> they represent in their original form is necessarily geared towards
> fundamentalism and terrorism.

It's right there in the Quaran and Haditha. If anybody is warping and
twisting Islamic scripture, it's those moderates who believe it doesn't
/really/ mean to smite the infidels until they die or pay the jizyah in
submission. Face it: Muhammed was a warlord who conquered and converted by
fire and sword, and commanded his followers to do the same. It's *nothing*
like those who somehow justify killing in the name of the Galilean
carpenter.

--
Tolkien's written work is characterized by disputes over the ownership of
jewelry, and the hand injuries that occur as a result.
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

William Cloud Hicklin <icelofangeln.DeleteThis@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:08:26 -0400, Dirk Thierbach
> <dthierbach.DeleteThis@usenet.arcornews.de> wrote:

>> Christians have been doing crusades under the pretext that "God
>> commanded it." Can we now conclude that all Christians have as
>> their only goal war on non-christians, and are doing exactly what
>> they religion tells them to? Please get real.

> Please stop bringing up millennium-old events. The jihad is taking
> place *right now*.

First, I don't see any jihad, I see a number of fundamentalists using
"jihad" and "religion" as an excuse to wage terror. As catholics and
protestants have done in North Ireland. As the extreme-left RAF
organziation has done (with a different excuse) in Germany some time
ago. Etc., etc.

Muslims don't have the monopoly on terrorist acts. You can use any
ideology as an excuse.

Second, the point was to refute the false generalization: "There are
some Muslims who commit terrorist acts, they excuse that with their
religion, hence all Muslims must be terrorists in their hearts". This
generalization is as wrong as the one with the Crusades above. And it
doesn't matter one bit that one took place some time ago. Wrong is
wrong.

These false generalizations are really the root of all hatred. And
those that don't learn from history what consequences this can have
are probably condemned to repeat history.

> Except that the Muslim version is hard-coded into the Quran, the
> Word of Allah > Gabriel > Muhammed.

And the Bible has also lots of "interesting" things "hard-coded" into
it, for example Slavery.

> I don't doubt that Muslims you know deny it. [...] It's called
> 'taqqiyah,' roughly the same as KGB-speak 'disinformazia."
> Essentially, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
> Nobody in here but us chickens. Just go to sleep."

So what are they supposed to do? If they don't talk about it, they are
accused of guilty silence. If they deny it, they are accused of lying.
In what way are they supposed to behave to demonstrate their
innocence? You give them no chance, you have already judged them
without paying attention to the particular person. Especially *you*
as a law-person should know about the danger in that.

I am sorry, but I really prefer to trust my personal judgement more
than prejudice instilled by fear. The ones I know are nice people,
basically. There are some "bad eggs" among Muslims in general, but
I am no more afraid of them than of other criminals among non-Muslims.

Terrorists are just criminals, treat them like every other criminal.
If you start giving up basic human rights because of them, or start to
treat people differently because of their faith, the terrorists have
already won.

And proposing that every Muslim deep inside only plans jihad on all
Westerners is just bullshit. Sorry. The ones I know wouldn't behave
the way they do towards me if that was true.

- Dirk, now really EOT
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

Dirk Thierbach wrote:
> William Cloud Hicklin <icelofangeln.RemoveThis@mindspring.com> wrote:
>

>
>>Except that the Muslim version is hard-coded into the Quran, the
>>Word of Allah > Gabriel > Muhammed.
>
>
> And the Bible has also lots of "interesting" things "hard-coded" into
> it, for example Slavery.

And freedom from slavery, and releasing slaves......
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection? 

On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 07:50:45 UTC, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spamgard.RemoveThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> Dan Drake wrote:
> > On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:45:44 UTC, Larry Swain <theswain.RemoveThis@operamail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> ... Seeing orcs as Muslims seems to me
> >> to be as much a misreading as that (or as seeing the recent movie The
> >> 300 as an anti-Iranian Bush administration diatribe).
> >>
> > (Have you told the bloggers who LOVE that movie that they're seeing
> > it all wrong?
> Really? They don't know their history (Thermopylae and all that), or they
> are just projecting? Seriously, badly, projecting.

Yes, they don't. Worse: Victor Davis Hanson, the famous classicist and
op-ed writer, recently (in connection with the movie, of course) called
Thermopylae a heroic last defense of freedom. Ignoring the logic (*last?*
Hmm, tell it to the Athenians), one has to wonder if he has actually read
Herodotus. You find a very different version there, I needn't tell you.
But I guess we're rather OT here.

--
Dan Drake
dd.RemoveThis@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com
 >> Stay informed about: Inklings and Islam is there a connection?