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Jean and the Phoenix

 
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barnett

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Since: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 58



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 3:25 pm
Post subject: Jean and the Phoenix
Archived from groups: rec>arts>comics>marvel>xbooks (more info?)

ABout whether Jean was or wasn't the original Phoenix. The rational
to bring her back the first time was the Phoenix was just a copy,
right? I was wondering if anyone has suggested that the Phoenix
pulled out Jean's astral form and made it physical while cocconing her
dying body to heal? Then when she dies, her new physical body is
destroyed, she tries to return Jean's astral form, but Jean tries to
send the memories of the Dark Phoenix with it. It doesn't want them
so it shoves them in the clone that becomes Madelyne.

JLB

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mcclue

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Since: Mar 04, 2004
Posts: 207



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 3:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Jean and the Phoenix [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"JLB" <barnett RemoveThis @shentel.net> wrote in message
news:c7b2ff96.0405151125.1d035050@posting.google.com...
 > ABout whether Jean was or wasn't the original Phoenix. The rational
 > to bring her back the first time was the Phoenix was just a copy,
 > right? I was wondering if anyone has suggested that the Phoenix
 > pulled out Jean's astral form and made it physical while cocconing her
 > dying body to heal? Then when she dies, her new physical body is
 > destroyed, she tries to return Jean's astral form, but Jean tries to
 > send the memories of the Dark Phoenix with it. It doesn't want them
 > so it shoves them in the clone that becomes Madelyne.
 >
 > JLB

Maybe there was no duplicate body and that cocoon will be rectoned to be the
"Phoenix Egg."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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cyke68

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Since: Apr 07, 2004
Posts: 19



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 3:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Jean and the Phoenix [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sun, 16 May 2004 12:01:02 +0900, "Patrick McClue"
<mcclue.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

 >
 >"JLB" <barnett.DeleteThis@shentel.net> wrote in message
 >news:c7b2ff96.0405151125.1d035050@posting.google.com...
  >> ABout whether Jean was or wasn't the original Phoenix. The rational
  >> to bring her back the first time was the Phoenix was just a copy,
  >> right? I was wondering if anyone has suggested that the Phoenix
  >> pulled out Jean's astral form and made it physical while cocconing her
  >> dying body to heal? Then when she dies, her new physical body is
  >> destroyed, she tries to return Jean's astral form, but Jean tries to
  >> send the memories of the Dark Phoenix with it. It doesn't want them
  >> so it shoves them in the clone that becomes Madelyne.
  >>
  >> JLB
 >
 >Maybe there was no duplicate body and that cocoon will be rectoned to be the
 >"Phoenix Egg."
 >
These are both rather cool theories, but would need some extra
information to account for all the Phoenix retcon baggage. The
problem, really, is Madelyne's origin. If the coccoon was the Phoenix
egg, what was all the business with the Phoenix Force awakening
Madelyne? And could Jean's body be awakened if her astral form
resided in another body (i.e. Doctor Strange becoming catatonic when
he conducts business via his astral self)? By sort of outlining the
life cycle of the Phoenix, Morrison has all but implied that the
cocoon WAS a Phoenix egg. It's perfectly logical, based on what he
has established in terms of the death and rebirth of Phoenix.

The thing is, for all intents and purposes, it always was Jean who
died on the moon. True, according to the original retcon, it wasn't
her body, but the Phoenix had been acting on her personality and
emotions the whole time. Jean has even possessed the memories of
"her" actions as the Phoenix since the end of Inferno. Apparently,
Marvel had softened in its stance that Jean and the Phoenix had to be
kept at an absolute distance to prevent Jean from being viewed as
accountable for the death of the poor Asparagus People. Things would
have been so much simpler had they just said that Jean was possessed
by the Phoenix Force in UNX #100, blew herself up on the moon in #137,
and the dispersed energies reformed in a vacant cocoon (from the
Enclave?) that had conveniently come to rest on the bottom of the bay.
But we've been stuck with the convoluted mess of separate bodies and
Madelyne figured in.
--Tim

cyke68.DeleteThis@hotmail.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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barnett

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Since: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 58



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 3:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Jean and the Phoenix [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Tim Capel <cyke68.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ldvda09jt9vnfl25te9rjn1fe27dlc6jc1.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>...
 > On Sun, 16 May 2004 12:01:02 +0900, "Patrick McClue"
 > <mcclue.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
 >
  > >
  > >"JLB" <barnett.TakeThisOut@shentel.net> wrote in message
  > >news:c7b2ff96.0405151125.1d035050@posting.google.com...
   > >> ABout whether Jean was or wasn't the original Phoenix. The rational
   > >> to bring her back the first time was the Phoenix was just a copy,
   > >> right? I was wondering if anyone has suggested that the Phoenix
   > >> pulled out Jean's astral form and made it physical while cocconing her
   > >> dying body to heal? Then when she dies, her new physical body is
   > >> destroyed, she tries to return Jean's astral form, but Jean tries to
   > >> send the memories of the Dark Phoenix with it. It doesn't want them
   > >> so it shoves them in the clone that becomes Madelyne.
   > >>
   > >> JLB
  > >
  > >Maybe there was no duplicate body and that cocoon will be rectoned to be the
  > >"Phoenix Egg."
  > >
 > These are both rather cool theories, but would need some extra
 > information to account for all the Phoenix retcon baggage. The
 > problem, really, is Madelyne's origin. If the coccoon was the Phoenix
 > egg, what was all the business with the Phoenix Force awakening
 > Madelyne? And could Jean's body be awakened if her astral form
 > resided in another body (i.e. Doctor Strange becoming catatonic when
 > he conducts business via his astral self)? By sort of outlining the
 > life cycle of the Phoenix, Morrison has all but implied that the
 > cocoon WAS a Phoenix egg. It's perfectly logical, based on what he
 > has established in terms of the death and rebirth of Phoenix.

Well, I wasn't saying that her astral form was in Madelyne's body.
What I was basically saying was after she was back in her body and the
Phoenix was leaving, she tried to dump the Dark Phoenix memories on it
telepathically, and the Phoenix didn't want them either so it found a
suitable place. And that jumpstarted Maddie's brain.

JLB
 >
 > The thing is, for all intents and purposes, it always was Jean who
 > died on the moon. True, according to the original retcon, it wasn't
 > her body, but the Phoenix had been acting on her personality and
 > emotions the whole time. Jean has even possessed the memories of
 > "her" actions as the Phoenix since the end of Inferno. Apparently,
 > Marvel had softened in its stance that Jean and the Phoenix had to be
 > kept at an absolute distance to prevent Jean from being viewed as
 > accountable for the death of the poor Asparagus People. Things would
 > have been so much simpler had they just said that Jean was possessed
 > by the Phoenix Force in UNX #100, blew herself up on the moon in #137,
 > and the dispersed energies reformed in a vacant cocoon (from the
 > Enclave?) that had conveniently come to rest on the bottom of the bay.
 > But we've been stuck with the convoluted mess of separate bodies and
 > Madelyne figured in.
 > --Tim
 >
 > cyke68.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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dgoodridge

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Since: May 16, 2004
Posts: 1



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 4:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Jean and the Phoenix [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 15 May 2004 12:25:01 -0700, barnett RemoveThis @shentel.net (JLB) wrote:

 >ABout whether Jean was or wasn't the original Phoenix. The rational
 >to bring her back the first time was the Phoenix was just a copy,
 >right? I was wondering if anyone has suggested that the Phoenix
 >pulled out Jean's astral form and made it physical while cocconing her
 >dying body to heal? Then when she dies, her new physical body is
 >destroyed, she tries to return Jean's astral form, but Jean tries to
 >send the memories of the Dark Phoenix with it. It doesn't want them
 >so it shoves them in the clone that becomes Madelyne.
 >
 >JLB


Here's how my theory goes.

On the shuttle craft, Jean's original body is destroyed almost to the
point of death. In that moment, she taps into the very highest core
of her potential.

She has a conversation with "herself" in she makes the agreement to
become Phoenix, essentially giving herself over to her highest
potential.

Since her body is so far gone, she places it into a cocoon for healing
while creating a "new" body for herself out of the energy she now has
access to which her body could access. (that is why the M'Krann
crystal made her ephemeral because as the energy was being drained
away, she became less and less real).

By creating a body as such, she basically gave herself over to more
power than she was capable of handling and without her "real" body's
defense mechanisms designed to help her grow into that power and as
time went on, her emotions and powers developed a kind of upward
spiralling dependence on one another (which scare her and is why she
subconsciously locked herself out of her power).

As time went on and she was corrupted by the influences of Mastermind
and her own power, she unlocked more and more of that power until she
basically was driven over the edge by it, becoming Dark Phoenix.

We pretty much know what happened next up until she "died" on the
moon.

What happened after that relies on a notion that Jean was slightly
unhinged by the whole experience, and mentally unstable.

At that point, she sent her "essence" back to her body, but as she
started to come to consciousness, she remembered all that she did and
her personality fragmented.

That part of Jean that was primarily good was left with the body, not
quite capable of finishing the job of awakening, while the other part
of Jean that was fundamentally flawed and given to extreme emotion was
split off and found the tabula rasa that was Madelyne Pryor and
awakened her.

That is why I figured that Jean had no telepathy when the cocoon was
opened. It was a defense mechanism or a side effect of having her
personality fragmented and occupied with the task of inhabitting two
bodies at the same time (Jean and Madelyne).

Madelyne of course was corrupted and that led to what we saw in
Inferno, which I always read as another conversation amongst herself
with the parts of her personality. She was acknowledging to herself
that the only way to save herself was to reintegrate her personality
and forgive herself for what she had done as Phoenix.

It also explains why shortly thereafter, her telepathy "magically"
returned (about the same time she stopped the war of the three
distinct segments of her personality) and why her power seem to grow
over time again until she became Phoenix once more.

And of course the rest is history.

mjg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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dannyboymcny

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Since: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 912



(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 4:10 am
Post subject: Re: Jean and the Phoenix [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Patrick McClue" <mcclue RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in
news:2go3s1F4ngviU1@uni-berlin.de:

 >
 > "JLB" <barnett RemoveThis @shentel.net> wrote in message
 > news:c7b2ff96.0405151125.1d035050@posting.google.com...
  >> ABout whether Jean was or wasn't the original Phoenix. The rational
  >> to bring her back the first time was the Phoenix was just a copy,
  >> right? I was wondering if anyone has suggested that the Phoenix
  >> pulled out Jean's astral form and made it physical while cocconing
  >> her dying body to heal? Then when she dies, her new physical body is
  >> destroyed, she tries to return Jean's astral form, but Jean tries to
  >> send the memories of the Dark Phoenix with it. It doesn't want them
  >> so it shoves them in the clone that becomes Madelyne.

 > Maybe there was no duplicate body and that cocoon will be rectoned to
 > be the "Phoenix Egg."

This is possible. It would just mean making the change from the cocoon
being immediately put on the bottom of Jamaica Bay to it being put there
following Jean's death on the moon.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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dannyboymcny

External


Since: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 912



(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 4:13 am
Post subject: Re: Jean and the Phoenix [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Tim Capel <cyke68.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ldvda09jt9vnfl25te9rjn1fe27dlc6jc1@4ax.com:

 > On Sun, 16 May 2004 12:01:02 +0900, "Patrick McClue"
 > <mcclue.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:

  >>Maybe there was no duplicate body and that cocoon will be rectoned to
  >>be the "Phoenix Egg."
  >>
 > These are both rather cool theories, but would need some extra
 > information to account for all the Phoenix retcon baggage. The
 > problem, really, is Madelyne's origin. If the coccoon was the Phoenix
 > egg, what was all the business with the Phoenix Force awakening
 > Madelyne?

Actually, this is easy to work around. OK, so Jean's body is destroyed.
Rather than heal the original body in a cocoon, why not make use of
that convenient clone body that's hanging around and doesn't have any
memories? For some reason, the fit isn't quite good enough, so it goes
on to re-create Jean on the bottom of Jamaica Bay.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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