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Julia's Lobotomy

 
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mdi00

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Since: Aug 22, 2003
Posts: 17



(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:12 pm
Post subject: Julia's Lobotomy
Archived from groups: alt>books>george-orwell (more info?)

According to John Newsinger's "Orwell's Politics", at the end
of "Nineteen Eighty-Four" one sees that Julia has undergone a
lobotomy. Would you agree with this? If so why?

Marco

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bridegam

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Since: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 628



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Julia's Lobotomy [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Marco wrote:

 > According to John Newsinger's "Orwell's Politics", at the end
 > of "Nineteen Eighty-Four" one sees that Julia has undergone a
 > lobotomy. Would you agree with this? If so why?
 >
 > Marco

Why does he think so? It doesn't make sense to me. There's no sense that
there's anything wrong with her intelligence: only that she's
emotionally dulled.

Who's John Newsinger?

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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mdi00

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Since: Aug 22, 2003
Posts: 17



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Julia's Lobotomy [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Martha Bridegam <bridegam DeleteThis @pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<3F4D23E8.CCFE53A4 DeleteThis @pacbell.net>...

 > Why does he think so? It doesn't make sense to me. There's no sense that
 > there's anything wrong with her intelligence: only that she's
 > emotionally dulled.
 >
 > Who's John Newsinger?
 >
 > /M

I'd never heard of the cat before but apparently he is "Senior Lecturer
in History, Bath Spa University College, Bath". Here is the relevant
passage:

"Smith is destroyed, that is, brought to betray Julia and to love
Big Brother, by means of torture. While the rat cage is what most
readers remember, it is electric-shock treatment that eventually
affects his brain and robs him of his will. Julia herself is
actually lobotomised." (p. 129)

Both conclusions seem highly questionable to me... He doesn't
elaborate any further.

Marco<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user271

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Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 110



(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:13 am
Post subject: Re: Julia's Lobotomy [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Marco" <mdi00.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e5f1d809.0308271707.453efae7@posting.google.com...
 > Martha Bridegam <bridegam.RemoveThis@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:<3F4D23E8.CCFE53A4.RemoveThis@pacbell.net>...
 >
  > > Why does he think so? It doesn't make sense to me. There's no sense that
  > > there's anything wrong with her intelligence: only that she's
  > > emotionally dulled.
  > >
  > > Who's John Newsinger?
  > >
  > > /M
 >
 > I'd never heard of the cat before but apparently he is "Senior Lecturer
 > in History, Bath Spa University College, Bath". Here is the relevant
 > passage:
 >
 > "Smith is destroyed, that is, brought to betray Julia and to love
 > Big Brother, by means of torture. While the rat cage is what most
 > readers remember, it is electric-shock treatment that eventually
 > affects his brain and robs him of his will. Julia herself is
 > actually lobotomised." (p. 129)
 >
 > Both conclusions seem highly questionable to me... He doesn't
 > elaborate any further.
 >
 > Marco

Not questionable just bloody wrong.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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lgrupsmith

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Since: Aug 28, 2003
Posts: 8



(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:41 am
Post subject: Re: Julia's Lobotomy [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Could you supply the link?

"Marco" <mdi00.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e5f1d809.0308271212.5a8fb580@posting.google.com...
 > According to John Newsinger's "Orwell's Politics", at the end
 > of "Nineteen Eighty-Four" one sees that Julia has undergone a
 > lobotomy. Would you agree with this? If so why?
 >
 > Marco<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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haynongunahora

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Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 69



(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Julia's Lobotomy [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Marco" <mdi00.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e5f1d809.0308271212.5a8fb580@posting.google.com...
 > According to John Newsinger's "Orwell's Politics", at the end
 > of "Nineteen Eighty-Four" one sees that Julia has undergone a
 > lobotomy. Would you agree with this? If so why?
 >
 > Marco

I'd refer you to Part III Chapter 6. (page 239-240 in my Signet
Classic paperback edition)

Winston meets a girl in a park. She is Julia, you learn toward the end
of the section. Here's some of it:

"She made no response whatever to the clasp of his arm; she did not
even try to disengage herself. He knew now what had changed in her.
Her face was sallower, and there was long scar partly hidden by the
hair across her forehead and temple...

....but by it's rigidity and awkwardness to handle, which made it seem
more like stone than flesh. Her body [Julia's] felt like that.


It seems to me that an argument can be made based on Orwell's
description of her lack of affect and tactile response as well as her
body feeling like stone and the scar across her forehead and temple
that she has been lobotomized.


My recollection of lobotomy from the 50's (awful thing that it was)
was that it involved severing nerve tissue in the frontal lobe of the
brain in an attempt to correct mental illness that had not been
corrected by other treatment. Victims of lobotomy were often portrayed
as lacking in affect.

It doesn't seem farfetched to me that Orwell might have used this as a
symbol of the "civilized barbarity" of the Big Brother regime.

All in all, I come down on Newsinger's side, although the evidence is
not conclusive.

Hay<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mabjo

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Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 423



(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:10 pm
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Hay Nongunahora wrote:

 > "Marco" <mdi00 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
 > news:e5f1d809.0308271212.5a8fb580@posting.google.com...
  > > According to John Newsinger's "Orwell's Politics", at the end
  > > of "Nineteen Eighty-Four" one sees that Julia has undergone a
  > > lobotomy. Would you agree with this? If so why?
  > >
  > > Marco
 >
 > I'd refer you to Part III Chapter 6. (page 239-240 in my Signet
 > Classic paperback edition)
 >
 > Winston meets a girl in a park. She is Julia, you learn toward the end
 > of the section. Here's some of it:
 >
 > "She made no response whatever to the clasp of his arm; she did not
 > even try to disengage herself. He knew now what had changed in her.
 > Her face was sallower, and there was long scar partly hidden by the
 > hair across her forehead and temple...
 >
 > ...but by it's rigidity and awkwardness to handle, which made it seem
 > more like stone than flesh. Her body [Julia's] felt like that.
 >
 > It seems to me that an argument can be made based on Orwell's
 > description of her lack of affect and tactile response as well as her
 > body feeling like stone and the scar across her forehead and temple
 > that she has been lobotomized.
 >
 > My recollection of lobotomy from the 50's (awful thing that it was)
 > was that it involved severing nerve tissue in the frontal lobe of the
 > brain in an attempt to correct mental illness that had not been
 > corrected by other treatment. Victims of lobotomy were often portrayed
 > as lacking in affect.
 >
 > It doesn't seem farfetched to me that Orwell might have used this as a
 > symbol of the "civilized barbarity" of the Big Brother regime.
 >
 > All in all, I come down on Newsinger's side, although the evidence is
 > not conclusive.
 >
 > Hay

I thought about the scar when he said that, yes, but is a lobotomized
person capable of conversation at all?

Well, the point is they've done something ugly to her. Maybe that's
enough. Let's not be ghoulish Trekkies about knowing exactly what.

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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ahogue

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Since: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 242



(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:19 pm
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Martha Bridegam wrote:

 >I thought about the scar when he said that, yes, but is a lobotomized
 >person capable of conversation at all?
 >
 >Well, the point is they've done something ugly to her. Maybe that's
 >enough. Let's not be ghoulish Trekkies about knowing exactly what.
 >
 >/M
 >
 >

I agree, Martha. It's not important. Still, I found this article on
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.epub.org.br/cm/n02/historia/lobotomy.htm." target="_blank">http://www.epub.org.br/cm/n02/historia/lobotomy.htm.</a> It doesn't go much
into the actual symptoms of a lobotomy, but it does seem implied that
the "patient" would be able to speak.

___

However, an ambitious American physician and clinical neurologist,
Walter Freeman, attended the same London conference as Moniz. Later he
read Moniz's reports in the library. He became very excited with the
idea and his results, and teamed up with a neurosurgeon James Watts, to
apply the newly invented technique in American patients. They first
operated in September 1936. After a few cases, he was convinced that
leucotomy worked, and started to propagandize it heavily. He was met
with suspicousness and resistance by the bulk of American neurosurgeons,
but he insisted, eventually winning the reluctant approval of his
colleagues. He and Watts perfectioned the technique, arriving to what he
called the "Freeman-Watts Standard Procedure", which had a precise set
of guidelines for the insertion of the leukotome.

Freeman was very good in convincing the general press about the promises
of the prefrontal lobotomy (as he called it now), and almost
singlehandedly pushed it as a valid therapeutic procedure across the
nation's insane asylums, hospitals and psychiatric clinics. He also
performed with Watts many operations around the country, but he was
dissatisfied with the messiness and length of the operation, Having
heard about an Italian who had developed a trans-orbital approach to the
frontal lobe (i.e., by inserting a leucotome after making an opening in
the roof of the eye orbits), he invented in 1945 a much quicker and
simpler way: the so-called "ice-pick lobotomy". Instead of a leucotome,
which required a surgical trepanning, he used a common tool to break
ice, which could be inserted under local anesthesia by tapping it with a
hammer. The ice pick would perforate skin, subcutaneous tissue, bone and
meninges in a single plunge; and then Freeman would swing it to severe
the prefrontal lobe. This would take no more than a few minutes, with no
need to intern the patient in the hospital. The procedure was so
ghastly, however, that even seasoned and veteran neurosurgeons and
psychiatrists would not stand the sight of it, and sometimes faint at
the "production line" of lobotomies assembled by Freeman. James Watts
became distressed with this kind of operation and broke his ties with
Freeman,

Lobotomy took America and some other countries by storm. They were
performed in a wide scale in the 40s, because the mental asylums were
brimming over with cases after the Second World War. Between 1939 and
1951, more than 18,000 lobotomies were performed in the United States,
and tens of thousands more in other countries. It was widely abused as a
method to control undesirable behavior, instead of being a last-resort
therapeutic procedure for desperate cases. In Japan, the majority of the
operated cases were children, many of whom had only problematic behavior
or a bad performance at the school. Inmates in prisons for the insane
were widely operated. Families trying to get rid of difficult relatives
would submit them to lobotomy. Rebels and political opponents were
treated as mentally deranged by authorities and operated. Amateur
surgeons would often perform hundreds of lobotomies without even doing a
systematic psychiatric evaluation.

In 1949, Dr. Antônio Egas Moniz was awarded the Nobel Prize for Medicine
and Physiology, in recognition of his creation of the prefrontal
leucotomy, This had the effect of making lobotomy a respectable
procedure, and as a result, in the ensuing three years, more lobotomies
were performed than in all previous years.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mabjo

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Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 423



(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:40 pm
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Alan Hogue wrote:

 > Martha Bridegam wrote:
 >
  > >I thought about the scar when he said that, yes, but is a lobotomized
  > >person capable of conversation at all?
  > >
  > >Well, the point is they've done something ugly to her. Maybe that's
  > >enough. Let's not be ghoulish Trekkies about knowing exactly what.
  > >
  > >/M
  > >
  > >
 >
 > I agree, Martha. It's not important. Still, I found this article on
 > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.epub.org.br/cm/n02/historia/lobotomy.htm." target="_blank">http://www.epub.org.br/cm/n02/historia/lobotomy.htm.</a> It doesn't go much
 > into the actual symptoms of a lobotomy, but it does seem implied that
 > the "patient" would be able to speak.
 >
 > ___
 >
 > However, an ambitious American physician and clinical neurologist,
 > Walter Freeman, attended the same London conference as Moniz. Later he
 > read Moniz's reports in the library. He became very excited with the
 > idea and his results, and teamed up with a neurosurgeon James Watts, to
 > apply the newly invented technique in American patients. They first
 > operated in September 1936. After a few cases, he was convinced that
 > leucotomy worked, and started to propagandize it heavily. He was met
 > with suspicousness and resistance by the bulk of American neurosurgeons,
 > but he insisted, eventually winning the reluctant approval of his
 > colleagues. He and Watts perfectioned the technique, arriving to what he
 > called the "Freeman-Watts Standard Procedure", which had a precise set
 > of guidelines for the insertion of the leukotome.
 >
 > Freeman was very good in convincing the general press about the promises
 > of the prefrontal lobotomy (as he called it now), and almost
 > singlehandedly pushed it as a valid therapeutic procedure across the
 > nation's insane asylums, hospitals and psychiatric clinics. He also
 > performed with Watts many operations around the country, but he was
 > dissatisfied with the messiness and length of the operation, Having
 > heard about an Italian who had developed a trans-orbital approach to the
 > frontal lobe (i.e., by inserting a leucotome after making an opening in
 > the roof of the eye orbits), he invented in 1945 a much quicker and
 > simpler way: the so-called "ice-pick lobotomy". Instead of a leucotome,
 > which required a surgical trepanning, he used a common tool to break
 > ice, which could be inserted under local anesthesia by tapping it with a
 > hammer. The ice pick would perforate skin, subcutaneous tissue, bone and
 > meninges in a single plunge; and then Freeman would swing it to severe
 > the prefrontal lobe. This would take no more than a few minutes, with no
 > need to intern the patient in the hospital. The procedure was so
 > ghastly, however, that even seasoned and veteran neurosurgeons and
 > psychiatrists would not stand the sight of it, and sometimes faint at
 > the "production line" of lobotomies assembled by Freeman. James Watts
 > became distressed with this kind of operation and broke his ties with
 > Freeman,
 >
 > Lobotomy took America and some other countries by storm. They were
 > performed in a wide scale in the 40s, because the mental asylums were
 > brimming over with cases after the Second World War. Between 1939 and
 > 1951, more than 18,000 lobotomies were performed in the United States,
 > and tens of thousands more in other countries. It was widely abused as a
 > method to control undesirable behavior, instead of being a last-resort
 > therapeutic procedure for desperate cases. In Japan, the majority of the
 > operated cases were children, many of whom had only problematic behavior
 > or a bad performance at the school. Inmates in prisons for the insane
 > were widely operated. Families trying to get rid of difficult relatives
 > would submit them to lobotomy. Rebels and political opponents were
 > treated as mentally deranged by authorities and operated. Amateur
 > surgeons would often perform hundreds of lobotomies without even doing a
 > systematic psychiatric evaluation.
 >
 > In 1949, Dr. Antônio Egas Moniz was awarded the Nobel Prize for Medicine
 > and Physiology, in recognition of his creation of the prefrontal
 > leucotomy, This had the effect of making lobotomy a respectable
 > procedure, and as a result, in the ensuing three years, more lobotomies
 > were performed than in all previous years.

All right (shudder), there's a case for it.

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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