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Kerouac and spontanous prose

 
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Michael Pedersen

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Since: Mar 18, 2005
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:40 pm
Post subject: Kerouac and spontanous prose
Archived from groups: alt>books>beatgeneration (more info?)

I was wandering if Kerouac actually managed to create spontanous prose, as
he wanted to? I have read On the Road and it seems to me that although some
episodes seem spontanous, even spontaneity has a basic structure. What du
you think?

Best Regards
Michael

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peter2

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(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:40 pm
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Michael Pedersen <mikeped.DeleteThis@softhome.net> wrote:

 > I was wandering if Kerouac actually managed to create spontanous prose, as
 > he wanted to? I have read On the Road and it seems to me that although some
 > episodes seem spontanous, even spontaneity has a basic structure. What du
 > you think?

It seems to me that 'On The Road', as published, wasn't spontaneous at
all. It had spontaneous-sounding *bits*, but I've always felt that it
was a rather carefully worked piece. And all the better for it. I don't
think that it's any coincidence that it's the most popular and durable
of all Kerouac's writing.

I read somewhere that it was fairly extensively rewritten for
publication- at the publisher's request. Is that true?

I know Dave Moore knows...
--
Peter<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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Biljo White

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Since: Feb 22, 2005
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:40 pm
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opbop11

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Since: Jan 05, 2005
Posts: 24



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:57 pm
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Biljo White wrote:
 > Guys - yes, on the road was very much revised and polished. Later,
kerouac
 > came out in favor of spontaneous prose. my theory: that by that
time the
 > booze had gotten to him to the extent that he couldn't revise, just
slap
 > it down, and he created the 'spontaneous' rap to justify it.

And what a "rap" it is:

ESSENTIALS OF SPONTANEOUS PROSE
Jack Kerouac


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
SET-UP The object is set before the mind, either in reality. as in
sketching
(before a landscape or teacup or old face) or is set in the memory
wherein
it becomes the sketching from memory of a definite image-object.
PROCEDURE Time being of the essence in the purity of speech, sketching
language is undisturbed flow from the mind of personal secret
idea-words,
blowing (as per jazz musician) on subject of image.

METHOD No periods separating sentence-structures already arbitrarily
riddled
by false colons and timid usually needless commas-but the vigorous
space
dash separating rhetorical breathing (as jazz musician drawing breath
between outblown phrases)--"measured pauses which are the essentials of
our
speech"--"divisions of the sounds we hear"-"time and how to note it
down."
(William Carlos Williams)

SCOPING Not "selectivity' Iof expression but following free deviation
(association) of mind into limitless blow-on-subject seas of thought,
swimming in sea of English with no discipline other than rhythms of
rhetorical exhalation and expostulated statement, like a fist coming
down on
a table with each complete utterance, bang! (the space dash)-Blow as
deep as
you want-write as deeply, fish as far down as you want, satisfy
yourself
first, then reader cannot fail to receive telepathic shock and
meaning-excitement by same laws operating in his own human mind.

LAG IN PROCEDURE No pause to think of proper word but the infantile
pileup
of scatological buildup words till satisfaction is gained, which will
turn
out to be a great appending rhythm to a thought and be in accordance
with
Great Law of timing.

TIMING Nothing is muddy that runs in time and to laws of
time-Shakespearian
stress of dramatic need to speak now in own unalterable way or forever
hold
tongue-no revisions (except obvious rational mistakes, such as names or
calculated insertions in act of not writing but inserting).

CENTER OF INTEREST Begin not from preconceived idea of what to say
about
image but from jewel center of interest in subject of image at moment
of
writing, and write outwards swimming in sea of language to peripheral
release and exhaustion-Do not afterthink except for poetic or P. S.
reasons.
Never afterthink to "improve" or defray impressions, as, the best
writing is
always the most painful personal wrung-out tossed from cradle warm
protective mind-tap from yourself the song of yourself, blow!-now!-your
way
is your only way-"good"-or "bad"-always honest ("ludi- crous"),
spontaneous,
"confessionals' interesting, because not "crafted." Craft is craft.

STRUCTURE OF WORK Modern bizarre structures (science fiction, etc.)
arise
from language being dead, "different" themes give illusion of "new"
life.
Follow roughly outlines in outfanning movement over subject, as river
rock,
so mindflow over jewel-center need (run your mind over it, once)
arriving at
pivot, where what was dim-formed "beginning" becomes
sharp-necessitating
"ending" and language shortens in race to wire of time-race of work,
following laws of Deep Form, to conclusion, last words, last
trickle-Night
is The End.

MENTAL STATE If possible write "without consciousness" in semi-trance
(as
Yeats' later "trance writing") allowing subconscious to admit in own
uninhibited interesting necessary and so "modern" language what
conscious
art would censor, and write excitedly, swiftly, with
writing-or-typing-cramps, in accordance (as from center to periphery)
with
laws of orgasm, Reich's "beclouding of consciousness." Come from
within,
out-to relaxed and said.

-----------

--
"Not blood. Red." -Jean Luc Godard

The Shadowville/Netherlands project:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.kannibaal.nl/shadowville.htm" target="_blank">http://www.kannibaal.nl/shadowville.htm</a>

"Mirror Twins":
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"Black Eagle Lady" by Will Dockery & Henry Conley:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.lulu.com/items/84000/84578/1/preview/Henry_Conley_-_06_-_Black_Eagle_Lady.mp3" target="_blank">http://www.lulu.com/items/84000/84578/1/preview/Henry_Conley_-_06_-_Bl..._Eagle_</a>


 > peter DeleteThis @cara.demon.co.uk (Peter Ceresole) wrote:
  > > Michael Pedersen <mikeped DeleteThis @softhome.net> wrote:
  > >
   > > > I was wandering if Kerouac actually managed to create spontanous
prose,
   > > > as he wanted to? I have read On the Road and it seems to me that
   > > > although some episodes seem spontanous, even spontaneity has a
basic
   > > > structure. What du you think?
  > >
  > > It seems to me that 'On The Road', as published, wasn't spontaneous
at
  > > all. It had spontaneous-sounding *bits*, but I've always felt that
it
  > > was a rather carefully worked piece. And all the better for it. I
don't
  > > think that it's any coincidence that it's the most popular and
durable
  > > of all Kerouac's writing.
  > >
  > > I read somewhere that it was fairly extensively rewritten for
  > > publication- at the publisher's request. Is that true?
  > >
  > > I know Dave Moore knows...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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woesong

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Since: Jan 13, 2005
Posts: 30



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:39 am
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It's exactly like his sister taught Little Big Man how to become the Soda
Pop Kid. First, go squint-eyed, and then, bust yon bottle before you touch
your firearm.

How do you - ?

CONCENTRATE!




--
Doubting Timus
ubi dubium ibi libertas
timus RemoveThis @nerdnosh.com
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opbop11

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Since: Jan 05, 2005
Posts: 24



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 12:31 pm
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Doubting Timus wrote:
 > It's exactly like his sister taught Little Big Man how to become the
Soda
 > Pop Kid. First, go squint-eyed, and then, bust yon bottle before you
touch
 > your firearm.
 >
 > How do you - ?
 >
 > CONCENTRATE!
 >
 > --
 > Doubting Timus
 > ubi dubium ibi libertas
 > timus.TakeThisOut@nerdnosh.com

"Tell them you were doing a little... tarrrrget practice."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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woesong

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Since: Jan 13, 2005
Posts: 30



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:56 pm
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"Will Dockery" <opbop1 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1111347099.733055.205120@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

 > "Tell them you were doing a little... tarrrrget practice."


I guess it worked for Burroughs...



--
Doubting Timus
ubi dubium ibi libertas
timus DeleteThis @nerdnosh.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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woesong

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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:13 pm
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"In his writing of this period Lamantia made use of what was called by
Breton
"pure psychic automatism", the spontaneous form of writing which created
poetry
as a train of mental associations whilst in a trancelike, hypnotic state."

That's from the Lamantia obit just posted. I remember automatic writing in
stories about Yeats; his wife was a practitioner yet he was the more ardent
believer. Gertrude Stein also performed experiments in the art, although
she disavowed them later. I think one difference was, the trancers credited
some superluminary presence for the writing (sort of like dubyah's reading
his speeches off a teleprompter) through their subconscious whereas Kerouac
believed in the cutting edge of consciousness itself.

Kerouac always grumbled about Holmes (no, not Sherlock) stealing his Jazz
stories to go into print first. Maybe K's own Bop Prosody was nothing more
than the process Lamantia utilized from his French Surrealist sources?

And maybe the Bohemian ethos was nothing more than the 1840s movement in
Paris sung for us in La Boheme? If so, was Dianne DiPrima our Mimě?


--
Doubting Timus
ubi dubium ibi libertas
timus DeleteThis @nerdnosh.com
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opbop11

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Since: Jan 05, 2005
Posts: 24



(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:06 am
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Doubting Timus wrote:
 > "Will Dockery" <opbop1.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
 > news:1111347099.733055.205120@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
 >
  > > "Tell them you were doing a little... tarrrrget practice."
 >
 > I guess it worked for Burroughs...

Saturday night I was with some friends, a musician I work with on
poetry sounds, and a DJ doing remixes of our stuff.

During a break Rice, the DJ, put on a recording of Burroughs describing
a horrific junkie doctor and and even more horrificly ill little
redheaded kid.

It had the smooth flow of Burroughs' "Junkie" and "Exterminator", what
a natural storyteller the man was.

--
Shadowville/Netherlands project:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.kannibaal.nl/shadowville.htm" target="_blank">http://www.kannibaal.nl/shadowville.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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dunkers

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Posts: 4



(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:58 pm
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I hope that it isn't heresy
to hear echoes of Kerouac prosody
in the work of Eminem.
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Will Dockery

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Posts: 26



(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:31 pm
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dunkers.TakeThisOut@pacbell.net wrote:
 > I hope that it isn't heresy
 > to hear echoes of Kerouac prosody
 > in the work of Eminem.

I haven't seen or heard any Eminem since 2002 or so, when I used my
television screen for target practice with a pistol I'd recently
bought... how do they relate?

--
"God Smiles/Sleepy Lizard Girl" [Will Dockery]
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.lulu.com/items/26000/26881/preview/Irony_Waves_-_Track__5.mp3" target="_blank">http://www.lulu.com/items/26000/26881/preview/Irony_Waves_-_Track__5.mp3</a>

"Greybeard Cavalier" [0x0000/Fowler/Dockery]
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.lulu.com/items/26000/26663/preview/Track__1.mp3" target="_blank">http://www.lulu.com/items/26000/26663/preview/Track__1.mp3</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Will Dockery

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Since: Apr 08, 2005
Posts: 26



(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:27 pm
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Gerda Ann wrote:
 > "Will Dockery" wrote:
  > > dunkers.DeleteThis@pacbell.net wrote:
   > > > I hope that it isn't heresy
   > > > to hear echoes of Kerouac prosody
   > > > in the work of Eminem.
  > >
  > > I haven't seen or heard any Eminem since 2002 or so, when I used my
  > > television screen for target practice with a pistol I'd recently
  > > bought... how do they relate?
 >
 > The post is a *haiku* you ignorant fuck.

If it was a Haiku, he would have said so, you silly bitch.

 > You think you're a poet and you
 > don't even recognize the most common forms when you see them. Read
some
 > books. Take a course. Do SOMETHING besides jerk off. If you learn
what
 > poetry is you might actually be able to write something with an ounce
of
 > merit.

 >From your foul unlady-like tone, it appears you know *plenty* about
this Eminem guy.

 > Silly twit.

Ah, shaddup, you goofy troll.

--
Shadowville/Netherlands project:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.kannibaal.nl/shadowville.htm" target="_blank">http://www.kannibaal.nl/shadowville.htm</a>

"Autograph 0f Zorro" Mp3:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.kannibaal.nl/zorro.mp3" target="_blank">http://www.kannibaal.nl/zorro.mp3</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Will Dockery

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Posts: 26



(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:38 pm
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Stuart Leichter wrote:
 > Will
 > Dockery wrote on 4/8/05 10:27 PM:
  > > Gerda Ann wrote:
  > > dunkers.RemoveThis@pacbell.net wrote: I hope that
  > > it isn't heresy to hear echoes of Kerouac prosody in the work of
Eminem.
  > >
   > >>> I haven't seen or heard any Eminem since 2002 or so, when I used
my
   > >>> television screen for target practice with a pistol I'd recently
bought...
   > >>> how do they relate?
   > >>>
   > >> The post is a *haiku* you ignorant fuck.
   > >>
  > > If it was a Haiku, he would have said so, you silly bitch.
  > >
   > >> You think you're a poet and you don't even recognize the most
common forms
   > >> when you see them. Read some books. Take a course. Do SOMETHING
besides jerk
   > >> off. If you learn what poetry is you might actually be able to
write
   > >> something with an ounce of merit.
   > >>
   > >> From your foul unlady-like tone, it appears you know *plenty*
about this
   > >> Eminem guy.
   > >>
   > >> Silly twit.
   > >>
  > > Ah, shaddup, you goofy troll.
 >
 > Before you made use of Usenet, Will, I posted a "found haiku" (I
think I
 > called it that).
 >
 > A kind reader (a regular, as they're sometimes called) advised me
that my
 > p.o.s. was not haiku, but senryu (she was being generous and kind).
She
 > provided a link to a wonderful resource for haiku, senryu, and other
 > Japanese forms.
 >
 > Do they use the term 'coonass' in your neck of the skyscrapers?

Not for a while--- I encountered the term in more portside lands, the
bayou, as a reference to a certain breed of Cajun. I haven't heard it
come up in my circles in some time, most likely in Woodstock Eddy's
group.

 > Do you think the priestly class of knowledge owners will survive the
 > Internet's effects?

I have no idea, but since this thread is focused on Kerouac, here's his
take on American Haiku, *from the archives*:

"The American Haiku is not exactly the Japanese
Haiku. The Japanese Haiku is strictly disciplined
to seventeen syllables but since the language
structure is different I don't think American
Haikus (short three-line poems intended to be
completely packed with Void of Whole) should worry
about syllables because American speech is
something again...bursting to pop.

Above all, a Haiku must be very simple and free
of all poetic trickery and make a little picture
and yet be as airy and graceful as a Vivaldi
Pastorella."
Jack Kerouac

Hope this helps.

--
Shadowville/Netherlands project:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.kannibaal.nl/shadowville.htm" target="_blank">http://www.kannibaal.nl/shadowville.htm</a>

"Autograph 0f Zorro" Mp3:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.kannibaal.nl/zorro.mp3" target="_blank">http://www.kannibaal.nl/zorro.mp3</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Gerda Ann

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Since: Apr 09, 2005
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:55 pm
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leichtes

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Posts: 10



(Msg. 15) Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:22 pm
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in article 1113013667.859238.104330 DeleteThis @g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, Will
Dockery at shamankickboxer DeleteThis @hotmail.com wrote on 4/8/05 10:27 PM:

 >
 > Gerda Ann wrote: "Will Dockery" wrote: dunkers DeleteThis @pacbell.net wrote: I hope that
 > it isn't heresy to hear echoes of Kerouac prosody in the work of Eminem.
 >
   >>> I haven't seen or heard any Eminem since 2002 or so, when I used my
   >>> television screen for target practice with a pistol I'd recently bought...
   >>> how do they relate?
   >>>
  >> The post is a *haiku* you ignorant fuck.
  >>
 > If it was a Haiku, he would have said so, you silly bitch.
 >
  >> You think you're a poet and you don't even recognize the most common forms
  >> when you see them. Read some books. Take a course. Do SOMETHING besides jerk
  >> off. If you learn what poetry is you might actually be able to write
  >> something with an ounce of merit.
  >>
  >> From your foul unlady-like tone, it appears you know *plenty* about this
  >> Eminem guy.
  >>
  >> Silly twit.
  >>
 > Ah, shaddup, you goofy troll.
 >

Before you made use of Usenet, Will, I posted a "found haiku" (I think I
called it that).

A kind reader (a regular, as they're sometimes called) advised me that my
p.o.s. was not haiku, but senryu (she was being generous and kind). She
provided a link to a wonderful resource for haiku, senryu, and other
Japanese forms.

Do they use the term 'coonass' in your neck of the skyscrapers?

Do you think the priestly class of knowledge owners will survive the
Internet's effects?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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