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Anybody remember flash crowds - I think it was his 'hole in space' book that flash crowds. Have a look at this story on the BBC Whoever reported this story also knew his Niven and made the link.
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Since: Dec 06, 2003 Posts: 812
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:33 am
Post subject: Legalized Pickpocketing Archived from groups: rec>arts>sf>written, others (more info?)
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Legalized Pick Pocketing in Larry Niven's Known Space universe. Page 69
of paperback "World Of Ptavvs", set in the early 22nd century, at a time
when almost all crimes on Earth had been made death penalty offenses to
keep the Organ Banks supplied with organs: One Dale Synder reminds an
ARM (UN cop) named Lucas Garner that most nations had laws against pick
pocketing before Earth became so crowded (about 18 billion by mid-21st
century) that the cops could no longer enforce the laws against pick
pocketing, implying that all the nations of the world passed laws
decriminalizing pick pocketing when the planet became so over crowded.
I would like to know how in the world the pick pocketing
decriminalization movement persuaded a majority of voters and
legislators to repeal the anti-pick pocketing laws, especially at a time
when all other crimes were being made capital offenses to supply the
Organ Banks. I would expect the law and order crowd, in alliance with
those who wanted the Organ Banks kept full, would have demanded that
pick pocketing be made a capital offense, not legalized! I would expect
the pro-pick pocketers to be accused of being "soft on crime" and voted
out of office.
The Beowolf Shaffer story "Flatlander": Beowolf learns that
pickpocketing is legal due to Earth's overcrowding making it impossible
to enforce any laws against it. Earth wallets even have addresses and
stamps so that pick pocketers can return the wallets after removing the
cash (but not the credit or ID cards). >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing |
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Since: Apr 19, 2007 Posts: 28
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Legalized Pickpocketing [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: rec>arts>sf>written, others (more info?)
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Tim Bruening wrote:
> One Dale Synder reminds an
> ARM (UN cop) named Lucas Garner that most nations had laws against pick
> pocketing before Earth became so crowded (about 18 billion by mid-21st
> century) that the cops could no longer enforce the laws against pick
> pocketing, implying that all the nations of the world passed laws
> decriminalizing pick pocketing when the planet became so over crowded.
> I would like to know how in the world the pick pocketing
> decriminalization movement persuaded a majority of voters and
> legislators to repeal the anti-pick pocketing laws, especially at a time
> when all other crimes were being made capital offenses to supply the
> Organ Banks.
I thought the Organ Banks thing was a separate short story.
But I can think of one missing element that might make this plausible.
Suppose that there was a law that required police to conscientiously
investigate all crimes reported to them - say, for example, to prevent
a police department from using its discretion to discriminate against
a minority group by not investigating crimes of which its members are
victims.
If that were to happen, *then* the fact that conditions were so
crowded that it was hopeless for police to investigate incidents of
pickpocketing would be a reason to take the crime off the books.
Plus, a crowded, anonymous society is likely one that has measures
like gun control - so presumably giving pickpocketing a special status
as illegal but not to be investigated, so that if a victim catches
someone red-handed, he can legally cut off the pickpocket's hand, or
kill him, to get his wallet back doesn't appeal to the ruling
political elites.
One also can assume that the rulers of a crowded society often have to
make difficult choices, so the government wouldn't be highly
answerable to public sentiments - it might be technically democratic,
but very much in the "republic but not a democracy" sense.
John Savard >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing |
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Since: Feb 07, 2005 Posts: 7
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Legalized Pickpocketing [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Dec 26, 3:17 pm, Quadibloc <jsav....TakeThisOut@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> Tim Bruening wrote:
> > One Dale Synder reminds an
> > ARM (UN cop) named Lucas Garner that most nations had laws against pick
> > pocketing before Earth became so crowded (about 18 billion by mid-21st
> > century) that the cops could no longer enforce the laws against pick
> > pocketing, implying that all the nations of the world passed laws
> > decriminalizing pick pocketing when the planet became so over crowded.
> > I would like to know how in the world the pick pocketing
> > decriminalization movement persuaded a majority of voters and
> > legislators to repeal the anti-pick pocketing laws, especially at a time
> > when all other crimes were being made capital offenses to supply the
> > Organ Banks.
>
> I thought the Organ Banks thing was a separate short story.
>
Nope. It is a major plot element in all the "Gill the Arm" stories (as
in _A Gift from Earth_), and a minor but celarly present element in
the Beowulf Shaefer stories. Both are sub-sets of the "Known Space"
series. There is one story that *focuses* on the Organ Bank problem
more than any otehr (I'm blanking on the title, closing phrase goes
"The state will prove that you, Warren Lewis Knowles, did on five
occasions within a three-year period <snip to avoid spoiling
punchline, for anyone who hasn't read it>" That story is part of the
same series, and by internal evidence roughly contemporary with the
Gil The Arm stories.
> But I can think of one missing element that might make this plausible.
>
> Suppose that there was a law that required police to conscientiously
> investigate all crimes reported to them - say, for example, to prevent
> a police department from using its discretion to discriminate against
> a minority group by not investigating crimes of which its members are
> victims.
>
Except that we are shown significnt judgemetn calls on what to
investigate on the part of the cops in the Gill the Arm stories.
> If that were to happen, *then* the fact that conditions were so
> crowded that it was hopeless for police to investigate incidents of
> pickpocketing would be a reason to take the crime off the books.
>
> Plus, a crowded, anonymous society is likely one that has measures
> like gun control - so presumably giving pickpocketing a special status
> as illegal but not to be investigated, so that if a victim catches
> someone red-handed, he can legally cut off the pickpocket's hand, or
> kill him, to get his wallet back doesn't appeal to the ruling
> political elites.
>
> One also can assume that the rulers of a crowded society often have to
> make difficult choices, so the government wouldn't be highly
> answerable to public sentiments - it might be technically democratic,
> but very much in the "republic but not a democracy" sense.
>
> John Savard
But again, we are shown that public pressure can and does decide major
policy issues in this universe. i particularly cite "The Defensless
Dead", but there are other examples.
I agree that the "pickpocketing is legal" idea didn't make much sense.
-DES >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing |
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Since: Mar 16, 2007 Posts: 53
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Legalized Pickpocketing [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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David E. Siegel <siegel DeleteThis @acm.org> wrote:
>There is one story that *focuses* on the Organ Bank problem
>more than any otehr (I'm blanking on the title, closing phrase goes
>"The state will prove that you, Warren Lewis Knowles, did on five
>occasions within a three-year period <snip to avoid spoiling
>punchline, for anyone who hasn't read it>" That story is part of the
>same series, and by internal evidence roughly contemporary with the
>Gil The Arm stories.
That would be, says wiki, after some searching, "The Jigsaw Man". I first
thought it was in the Neutron Star collection (but ran into the issue that
the link for the collection in wiki links instead to a page about the short
story, and I can't fix that because there appears to be no page about the
collection), but it was actually in All The Myriad Ways.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd DeleteThis @vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K. >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing |
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Since: Jan 25, 2004 Posts: 29
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Legalized Pickpocketing [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: alt>books>larry-niven (more info?)
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On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 19:02:31 -0800 (PST), "David E. Siegel"
<siegel DeleteThis @acm.org> wrote:
>series. There is one story that *focuses* on the Organ Bank problem
>more than any otehr (I'm blanking on the title, closing phrase goes
>"The state will prove that you, Warren Lewis Knowles, did on five
>occasions within a three-year period <snip to avoid spoiling
>punchline, for anyone who hasn't read it>" That story is part of the
>same series, and by internal evidence roughly contemporary with the
>Gil The Arm stories.
Jigsaw Man. >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing |
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Since: Dec 06, 2003 Posts: 812
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:06 am
Post subject: Re: Legalized Pickpocketing [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: rec>arts>sf>written, others (more info?)
|
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Quadibloc wrote:
> Tim Bruening wrote:
> > One Dale Synder reminds an
> > ARM (UN cop) named Lucas Garner that most nations had laws against pick
> > pocketing before Earth became so crowded (about 18 billion by mid-21st
> > century) that the cops could no longer enforce the laws against pick
> > pocketing, implying that all the nations of the world passed laws
> > decriminalizing pick pocketing when the planet became so over crowded.
> > I would like to know how in the world the pick pocketing
> > decriminalization movement persuaded a majority of voters and
> > legislators to repeal the anti-pick pocketing laws, especially at a time
> > when all other crimes were being made capital offenses to supply the
> > Organ Banks.
>
> I thought the Organ Banks thing was a separate short story.
Several Niven stories set in the first half of the 3rd millenium mention organ
banks and executing criminals to supply them. >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing |
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Since: Dec 06, 2003 Posts: 812
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:08 am
Post subject: Re: Legalized Pickpocketing [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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|
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Quadibloc wrote:
> Tim Bruening wrote:
> > One Dale Synder reminds an
> > ARM (UN cop) named Lucas Garner that most nations had laws against pick
> > pocketing before Earth became so crowded (about 18 billion by mid-21st
> > century) that the cops could no longer enforce the laws against pick
> > pocketing, implying that all the nations of the world passed laws
> > decriminalizing pick pocketing when the planet became so over crowded.
> > I would like to know how in the world the pick pocketing
> > decriminalization movement persuaded a majority of voters and
> > legislators to repeal the anti-pick pocketing laws, especially at a time
> > when all other crimes were being made capital offenses to supply the
> > Organ Banks.
>
> I thought the Organ Banks thing was a separate short story.
>
> But I can think of one missing element that might make this plausible.
>
> Suppose that there was a law that required police to conscientiously
> investigate all crimes reported to them - say, for example, to prevent
> a police department from using its discretion to discriminate against
> a minority group by not investigating crimes of which its members are
> victims.
>
> If that were to happen, *then* the fact that conditions were so
> crowded that it was hopeless for police to investigate incidents of
> pickpocketing would be a reason to take the crime off the books.
>
> Plus, a crowded, anonymous society is likely one that has measures
> like gun control - so presumably giving pickpocketing a special status
> as illegal but not to be investigated, so that if a victim catches
> someone red-handed, he can legally cut off the pickpocket's hand, or
> kill him, to get his wallet back doesn't appeal to the ruling
> political elites.
>
> One also can assume that the rulers of a crowded society often have to
> make difficult choices, so the government wouldn't be highly
> answerable to public sentiments - it might be technically democratic,
> but very much in the "republic but not a democracy" sense.
If pickpocketing were legal, could I be arrested if I beat up the pickpocketer
to get my wallet back? Could I then be sent to the Organ Banks? >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing |
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Since: Dec 06, 2003 Posts: 812
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:29 am
Post subject: Re: Legalized Pickpocketing [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
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"David E. Siegel" wrote:
> On Dec 26, 3:17 pm, Quadibloc <jsav....TakeThisOut@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> > Tim Bruening wrote:
> > > One Dale Synder reminds an
> > > ARM (UN cop) named Lucas Garner that most nations had laws against pick
> > > pocketing before Earth became so crowded (about 18 billion by mid-21st
> > > century) that the cops could no longer enforce the laws against pick
> > > pocketing, implying that all the nations of the world passed laws
> > > decriminalizing pick pocketing when the planet became so over crowded.
> > > I would like to know how in the world the pick pocketing
> > > decriminalization movement persuaded a majority of voters and
> > > legislators to repeal the anti-pick pocketing laws, especially at a time
> > > when all other crimes were being made capital offenses to supply the
> > > Organ Banks.
> >
> > I thought the Organ Banks thing was a separate short story.
> >
> Nope. It is a major plot element in all the "Gill the Arm" stories (as
> in _A Gift from Earth_), and a minor but celarly present element in
> the Beowulf Shaefer stories. Both are sub-sets of the "Known Space"
> series. There is one story that *focuses* on the Organ Bank problem
> more than any otehr (I'm blanking on the title, closing phrase goes
> "The state will prove that you, Warren Lewis Knowles, did on five
> occasions within a three-year period <snip to avoid spoiling
> punchline, for anyone who hasn't read it>" That story is part of the
> same series, and by internal evidence roughly contemporary with the
> Gil The Arm stories.
>
> > But I can think of one missing element that might make this plausible.
> >
> > Suppose that there was a law that required police to conscientiously
> > investigate all crimes reported to them - say, for example, to prevent
> > a police department from using its discretion to discriminate against
> > a minority group by not investigating crimes of which its members are
> > victims.
> >
> Except that we are shown significnt judgemetn calls on what to
> investigate on the part of the cops in the Gill the Arm stories.
>
> > If that were to happen, *then* the fact that conditions were so
> > crowded that it was hopeless for police to investigate incidents of
> > pickpocketing would be a reason to take the crime off the books.
> >
> > Plus, a crowded, anonymous society is likely one that has measures
> > like gun control - so presumably giving pickpocketing a special status
> > as illegal but not to be investigated, so that if a victim catches
> > someone red-handed, he can legally cut off the pickpocket's hand, or
> > kill him, to get his wallet back doesn't appeal to the ruling
> > political elites.
> >
> > One also can assume that the rulers of a crowded society often have to
> > make difficult choices, so the government wouldn't be highly
> > answerable to public sentiments - it might be technically democratic,
> > but very much in the "republic but not a democracy" sense.
> >
> > John Savard
>
> But again, we are shown that public pressure can and does decide major
> policy issues in this universe. i particularly cite "The Defensless
> Dead", but there are other examples.
Voters on Earth had voted to make more and more crimes subject to the death
penalty, such as jaywalking and false advertising. Later, when Earth developed
alternatives to the organ banks, voters started repealing death penalties. >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing |
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Since: Dec 06, 2003 Posts: 812
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:30 am
Post subject: Re: Legalized Pickpocketing [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
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Quadibloc wrote:
> Tim Bruening wrote:
> > One Dale Synder reminds an
> > ARM (UN cop) named Lucas Garner that most nations had laws against pick
> > pocketing before Earth became so crowded (about 18 billion by mid-21st
> > century) that the cops could no longer enforce the laws against pick
> > pocketing, implying that all the nations of the world passed laws
> > decriminalizing pick pocketing when the planet became so over crowded.
> > I would like to know how in the world the pick pocketing
> > decriminalization movement persuaded a majority of voters and
> > legislators to repeal the anti-pick pocketing laws, especially at a time
> > when all other crimes were being made capital offenses to supply the
> > Organ Banks.
>
> I thought the Organ Banks thing was a separate short story.
>
> But I can think of one missing element that might make this plausible.
>
> Suppose that there was a law that required police to conscientiously
> investigate all crimes reported to them - say, for example, to prevent
> a police department from using its discretion to discriminate against
> a minority group by not investigating crimes of which its members are
> victims.
>
> If that were to happen, *then* the fact that conditions were so
> crowded that it was hopeless for police to investigate incidents of
> pickpocketing would be a reason to take the crime off the books.
>
> Plus, a crowded, anonymous society is likely one that has measures
> like gun control - so presumably giving pickpocketing a special status
> as illegal but not to be investigated, so that if a victim catches
> someone red-handed, he can legally cut off the pickpocket's hand, or
> kill him, to get his wallet back doesn't appeal to the ruling
> political elites.
If you can't enforce pickpocketing due to the overcrowding, how do you enforce
gun control laws? >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing |
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Since: Jun 17, 2007 Posts: 8
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:23 am
Post subject: Re: Legalized Pickpocketing [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni.TakeThisOut@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:47750896.F29665B0@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>
>
> Quadibloc wrote:
>> Plus, a crowded, anonymous society is likely one that has measures
>> like gun control - so presumably giving pickpocketing a special status
>> as illegal but not to be investigated, so that if a victim catches
>> someone red-handed, he can legally cut off the pickpocket's hand, or
>> kill him, to get his wallet back doesn't appeal to the ruling
>> political elites.
>
> If you can't enforce pickpocketing due to the overcrowding, how do you
> enforce
> gun control laws?
I dunno about that but if you can't enforce gun control laws that would
pretty much take care of your overcrowding problem.
>> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing |
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Since: Jul 09, 2003 Posts: 168
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Legalized Pickpocketing [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Tim Bruening wrote:
> Voters on Earth had voted to make more and more crimes subject to the death
> penalty, such as jaywalking and false advertising.
And on that subject, nice to see that they don't have a judicial check
and balance in their system.
I mean, really, Niven's stories are fun, but you can't take the
sociology or politics very seriously.
--
Erik Max Francis && max RemoveThis @alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM, Y!M erikmaxfrancis
Lawyers, I suppose, were children once.
-- Charles Lamb >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing |
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Since: Dec 06, 2003 Posts: 812
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Legalized Pickpocketing [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Erik Max Francis wrote:
> Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> > Voters on Earth had voted to make more and more crimes subject to the death
> > penalty, such as jaywalking and false advertising.
>
> And on that subject, nice to see that they don't have a judicial check
> and balance in their system.
In "A Gift From Earth", Mount Lookathat leader Millard Parlette mentions that the
police on Earth have to obtain search warrents before they can conduct a search. >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing |
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Since: Jul 09, 2003 Posts: 168
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:40 am
Post subject: Re: Legalized Pickpocketing [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Tim Bruening wrote:
> Erik Max Francis wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>
>>> Voters on Earth had voted to make more and more crimes subject to the death
>>> penalty, such as jaywalking and false advertising.
>> And on that subject, nice to see that they don't have a judicial check
>> and balance in their system.
>
> In "A Gift From Earth", Mount Lookathat leader Millard Parlette mentions that the
> police on Earth have to obtain search warrents before they can conduct a search.
I was referring to a supreme judicial check. Meaning, a Supreme Court
that could strike down such absurd laws pursuant so some remotely
reasonable constitution which outlawed things like cruel, unusual, or
excessive punishment. The death penalty for jaywalking certainly qualifies.
--
Erik Max Francis && max DeleteThis @alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM, Y!M erikmaxfrancis
Nobody's waited longer than me / To come clean
-- Jaki Graham >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing |
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Since: Dec 06, 2003 Posts: 812
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:21 am
Post subject: Re: Legalized Pickpocketing [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Erik Max Francis wrote:
> Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> > Erik Max Francis wrote:
> >
> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >>
> >>> Voters on Earth had voted to make more and more crimes subject to the death
> >>> penalty, such as jaywalking and false advertising.
> >> And on that subject, nice to see that they don't have a judicial check
> >> and balance in their system.
> >
> > In "A Gift From Earth", Mount Lookathat leader Millard Parlette mentions that the
> > police on Earth have to obtain search warrents before they can conduct a search.
>
> I was referring to a supreme judicial check. Meaning, a Supreme Court
> that could strike down such absurd laws pursuant so some remotely
> reasonable constitution which outlawed things like cruel, unusual, or
> excessive punishment. The death penalty for jaywalking certainly qualifies.
In the Gil "The Arm" Hamilton/Lucas Garner era, almost all crimes were punished by
executing the perpetrator and harvesting his/her organs for the organ banks. This
means that executions were very, very, common, and thus didn't qualify as "Cruel AND
Unusual punishment", so couldn't be struck down on "Cruel AND Unusual" grounds! >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing |
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Since: Jul 09, 2003 Posts: 168
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:51 am
Post subject: Re: Legalized Pickpocketing [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Tim Bruening wrote:
> In the Gil "The Arm" Hamilton/Lucas Garner era, almost all crimes were punished by
> executing the perpetrator and harvesting his/her organs for the organ banks. This
> means that executions were very, very, common, and thus didn't qualify as "Cruel AND
> Unusual punishment", so couldn't be struck down on "Cruel AND Unusual" grounds!
That's the point. The fact that something is common, or popular,
doesn't mean it's constitutional. We of course have no idea what the
UN's constitution (or equivalent) says, or how the chief judicial court
operates, but it's obviously not working very well if something so
blatant as being executed for trivial offenses is allowed to pass unchecked.
Which was merely my point all along: The judicial check has failed in
the organlegging era.
--
Erik Max Francis && max DeleteThis @alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM, Y!M erikmaxfrancis
Principles have no real force except when one is well fed.
-- Mark Twain >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing |
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