Legalized Pickpocketing

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 01:33:14 -0800, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni.DeleteThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>Sharrol removed about 200 stars from Beowulf's wallet before handing it
>back to him. Minutes later, he dropped half a star in a phone booth slot.
>Where did he get the half star, since Sharrol had just robbed him?

Clearly, she didn't take _all_ of his money.
 >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing 

norrin wrote:

> On Dec 27, 9:25 am, Peter Bruells <user....DeleteThis@rogue.de> wrote:
> > David Johnston <da....DeleteThis@block.net> writes:
> > > It seems more likely that as the police found the law increasingly
> > > unenforcible that they would simply stop trying. Technically the
> > > law would still be on the books, but as one of those fossil laws
> > > about not whistling in public or whatever.
> >
> > If pickpocketing isn't illegal, victims have to grounds to defend
> > themselves.
>
> If a pickpocket does their job right, the target never
> knows who they were. If a purse snatcher does it
> right, somebody notices but not before they're on
> the other side of the street.
>
> > If have no qualms about he police saying "Sorry, catching they guy who
> > picked your pocket is unlikely and we tell you flatly that we won't
> > spend any time on it before we haven't saved this murder, that rape
> > and stopped those white slavers."
> >
> > I object, however, to not being allowed to stab, shoot, hit or
> > otherwise incapacitate someone who tries to steal from me.
>
> Which is why a pickpocket or cutpurse has more
> skill and planning than the average thief, and
> much more skill than the average mugger.

"Death by Ecstasy" (The first Gill "The Arm" Hamilton story) says that
picking pockets is a game of skill. Since Gill has a psychic arm capable of
lifting a full shot glass, I bet that he would make a world champion
pickpocketer. Just lift out the wallet with his psychic arm!
 >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing 

James Kuyper wrote:

> Tim Bruening wrote:
> > "John Spain" <drmanha....TakeThisOut@SPAMhotmailME.comNOT> wrote on Mon, 31 Dec 2001
> > 19:41:49 +0100:
> >
> >> "James Kuyper Jr." <kuy....TakeThisOut@wizard.net> wrote on Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:25:01 -0500:
> >
> >>> The difference between sodomy and, for instance, embezellment, is not
> >>> enforceability. It is that one of them involves the fully informed
> >>> consent of all affected people, and the other does not. I'd find his
> >>> concept that picking pockets might become legal more plausible, if I
> >>> could see any reason why people would cease to object to having their
> >>> pockets picked.
> >> Well, anything that isn't illegal is legal, by default.
> >>
> >> Consider the psychology of that period's flatlanders: Extremely gregarious,
> >> racially, economically and culturally equal to a great degree, totally
> >> sexually uninhibited and mentally and physically nonagressive.
> >>
> >> Nobody feels threatened by physical contact, and everyone is aware of the
> >> possibility of losing your wallet. In a mostly cashless society with palm
> >> print locks instead of keys, it's no great loss. Presumably unspoken social
> >> rules and nonverbal signals arise that regulate this to a degree. i.e. a
> >> nudist isn't going to get his pockets picked.
> >>
> >> The way it's presented, it's looks to me like a mating game. Remember
> >> Sharrol steals Bey's wallet, what happens afterwards? They get hitched.
> >> Think of picking a someone's wallet as a way of getting their phone number
> >> (The fact they meet through a coincidence later is, I feel, somewhat
> >> improbable unfortunately. But it doesn't change the essence of my argument)
> >
> > How in the world were the nations of Earth persauded to repeal the laws
> > against pickpocketing???? I would expect that any politician proposing
> > the legalization of pickpocketing would have been voted out of office
> > for being "soft on crime"!
>
> Personally, I find it implausible, as indicated in the ancient message
> you resurrected above. However, if I had to take it as given, and come
> up with a plausible mechanism, I'd use the repeal of Prohibition as a
> model. This requires that pick-pocketing become not merely a commonplace
> activity, but also a popular one. That is, there was not only a large
> fraction of the populace that were victims, but also a large fraction of
> the populace who were perpetrators, say at least 25%.
>
> I consider it extremely unlikely that this would ever be the case, but
> if it were, then decriminalization becomes a natural consequence. That
> would be because a solid electoral majority of people would either be
> pick-pockets, or have friends or relatives that they sympathized with
> who were pickpockets.

In the Niven-verse, pick pocketing is a game of skill. Are there pick pocketing clubs,
or tournaments, or professional leagues? Is there a Pick PAC? Could I take a Pick
Pocketing class at my local high school?
 >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing 

James Kuyper wrote:

> Tim Bruening wrote:
> > "John Spain" <drmanha....TakeThisOut@SPAMhotmailME.comNOT> wrote on Mon, 31 Dec 2001
> > 19:41:49 +0100:
> >
> >> "James Kuyper Jr." <kuy....TakeThisOut@wizard.net> wrote on Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:25:01 -0500:
> >
> >>> The difference between sodomy and, for instance, embezellment, is not
> >>> enforceability. It is that one of them involves the fully informed
> >>> consent of all affected people, and the other does not. I'd find his
> >>> concept that picking pockets might become legal more plausible, if I
> >>> could see any reason why people would cease to object to having their
> >>> pockets picked.
> >> Well, anything that isn't illegal is legal, by default.
> >>
> >> Consider the psychology of that period's flatlanders: Extremely gregarious,
> >> racially, economically and culturally equal to a great degree, totally
> >> sexually uninhibited and mentally and physically nonagressive.
> >>
> >> Nobody feels threatened by physical contact, and everyone is aware of the
> >> possibility of losing your wallet. In a mostly cashless society with palm
> >> print locks instead of keys, it's no great loss. Presumably unspoken social
> >> rules and nonverbal signals arise that regulate this to a degree. i.e. a
> >> nudist isn't going to get his pockets picked.
> >>
> >> The way it's presented, it's looks to me like a mating game. Remember
> >> Sharrol steals Bey's wallet, what happens afterwards? They get hitched.
> >> Think of picking a someone's wallet as a way of getting their phone number
> >> (The fact they meet through a coincidence later is, I feel, somewhat
> >> improbable unfortunately. But it doesn't change the essence of my argument)
> >
> > How in the world were the nations of Earth persauded to repeal the laws
> > against pickpocketing???? I would expect that any politician proposing
> > the legalization of pickpocketing would have been voted out of office
> > for being "soft on crime"!
>
> Personally, I find it implausible, as indicated in the ancient message
> you resurrected above. However, if I had to take it as given, and come
> up with a plausible mechanism, I'd use the repeal of Prohibition as a
> model. This requires that pick-pocketing become not merely a commonplace
> activity, but also a popular one. That is, there was not only a large
> fraction of the populace that were victims, but also a large fraction of
> the populace who were perpetrators, say at least 25%.
>
> I consider it extremely unlikely that this would ever be the case, but
> if it were, then decriminalization becomes a natural consequence. That
> would be because a solid electoral majority of people would either be
> pick-pockets, or have friends or relatives that they sympathized with
> who were pickpockets.

In the Niven-verse, pick pocketing is a game of skill. Is there a
website for pick pocketers (www.pickpocket.com)?
 >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing 

David Johnston wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:51:21 GMT, James Kuyper
> <jameskuyper DeleteThis @verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >Personally, I find it implausible, as indicated in the ancient message
> >you resurrected above. However, if I had to take it as given, and come
> >up with a plausible mechanism, I'd use the repeal of Prohibition as a
> >model.
>
> It seems more likely that as the police found the law increasingly
> unenforcible that they would simply stop trying. Technically the law
> would still be on the books, but as one of those fossil laws about not
> whistling in public or whatever.

But on page 89 of paperback "World Of Ptavvs", One Dale Synder says to
an
ARM (UN cop) named Lucas Garner "Let's suppose that the, uh, Sea Statue
civilization had a law against picking pockets. Most countries, you
know,
had such laws before we got so crowded that the cops couldn't enforce
them". In "Flatlander", a pickpocketer told Beowulf Shaffer in
"Flatlander" that there were no laws against pickpocketing. I therefore
got the impression that all laws banning pickpocketing had been repealed
and physically erased from the law books and legal codes!

I have just figured out why pickpocketing might have been legalized
after it became impossible to stop: so that the pickpocketers would be
more likely to return the wallets after removing the money!
 >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing 

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:24:18 -0800, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni DeleteThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>But on page 89 of paperback "World Of Ptavvs", One Dale Synder says to
>an
>ARM (UN cop) named Lucas Garner "Let's suppose that the, uh, Sea Statue
>civilization had a law against picking pockets. Most countries, you
>know,
>had such laws before we got so crowded that the cops couldn't enforce
>them". In "Flatlander", a pickpocketer told Beowulf Shaffer in
>"Flatlander" that there were no laws against pickpocketing. I therefore
>got the impression that all laws banning pickpocketing had been repealed
>and physically erased from the law books and legal codes!
>
>I have just figured out why pickpocketing might have been legalized
>after it became impossible to stop: so that the pickpocketers would be
>more likely to return the wallets after removing the money!

The trouble with this logic is that we don't need a law against
pickpocketing - all we need is a law against stealing. So in his
environment I expect there's a law against stealing and laws listing
when the first law doesn't apply.

I don't see it. Maybe there's a law telling police not to worry
about pickpocketing. Unless the victims are lawmakers, of course.
 >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing 

Tim Bruening wrote:

> But on page 89 of paperback "World Of Ptavvs", One Dale Synder says to
> an
> ARM (UN cop) named Lucas Garner "Let's suppose that the, uh, Sea Statue
> civilization had a law against picking pockets. Most countries, you
> know,
> had such laws before we got so crowded that the cops couldn't enforce
> them". In "Flatlander", a pickpocketer told Beowulf Shaffer in
> "Flatlander" that there were no laws against pickpocketing. I therefore
> got the impression that all laws banning pickpocketing had been repealed
> and physically erased from the law books and legal codes!

Yes, the overarching implication is not just that the practice has been
decriminalized in the sense of it's no longer enforced, but rather that
it has been fully legalized and it is no longer in violation of any law
whatsoever. In other words, it's not that the police won't help you;
it's that the pickpockets _aren't doing anything wrong_.

> I have just figured out why pickpocketing might have been legalized
> after it became impossible to stop: so that the pickpocketers would be
> more likely to return the wallets after removing the money!

You've absolutely no incentive to return the wallet if you can't be
caught, and especially if _there is no law against what you're doing_.
The premise here is that it was legalized because it was impossible to
enforce. If so, even before it was legalized, there is zero incentive
to return the wallet, because you cannot possibly be identified. After
it's legalized, you're not even committing a crime anymore, so you're
free and clear to do whatever you like.

This is why the notion is so fundamentally goofy.

--
Erik Max Francis && max.TakeThisOut@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM, Y!M erikmaxfrancis
All your slick moves / They were once innocent moves
-- Sade
 >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing 

> Yes, the overarching implication is not just that the practice has been
> decriminalized in the sense of it's no longer enforced, but rather that
> it has been fully legalized and it is no longer in violation of any law
> whatsoever.  In other words, it's not that the police won't help you;
> it's that the pickpockets _aren't doing anything wrong_.
>
> > I have just figured out why pickpocketing might have been legalized
> > after it became impossible to stop: so that the pickpocketers would be
> > more likely to return the wallets after removing the money!
>
> You've absolutely no incentive to return the wallet if you can't be
> caught, and especially if _there is no law against what you're doing_.
> The premise here is that it was legalized because it was impossible to
> enforce.  If so, even before it was legalized, there is zero incentive
> to return the wallet, because you cannot possibly be identified.  After
> it's legalized, you're not even committing a crime anymore, so you're
> free and clear to do whatever you like.
>
> This is why the notion is so fundamentally goofy.

Not *entirely* goofy -- Niven explains that in Beowulf Schaeffer's
time pickpocketing is essentially a game of skill. If you notice the
pickpocket and catch his hand, you win. If you don't, he wins.
Returning your wallet afterwards is "common courtesy" -- failing to do
so is legal, but unsportsmanlike.
 >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing 

On Jan 2, 7:15 pm, il... RemoveThis @rcn.com wrote:

> Not *entirely* goofy -- Niven explains that in Beowulf Schaeffer's
> time pickpocketing is essentially a game of skill. If you notice the
> pickpocket and catch his hand, you win. If you don't, he wins.
> Returning your wallet afterwards is "common courtesy" -- failing to do
> so is legal, but unsportsmanlike.

Ah, so this is not the kind of world I envisaged based solely on the
data in the initial post, it really is a _cultural_ difference.

I was thinking of a world like our own, where pickpocketing is still
regarded with contempt as an evil crime, but overcrowding made it hard
to enforce it, and some other factor led to a Constitutional ban on
unenforceable laws - and so I proposed a possible mechanism as to how
that might come about (to prevent hidden bias in selective enforcement
of laws).

But given this, Larry Niven's story takes place in some other kind of
world.

John Savard
 >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing 

: ilya2.RemoveThis@rcn.com
: Niven explains that in Beowulf Schaeffer's time pickpocketing is
: essentially a game of skill. If you notice the pickpocket and catch
: his hand, you win. If you don't, he wins. Returning your wallet
: afterwards is "common courtesy" -- failing to do so is legal, but
: unsportsmanlike.

You mean, they face each other as God intended, nothing unsportsmanlike,
no tricks, no weapons, skill against skill alone? One doesn't hide his
wallet, the other doesn't cut his pocket, and they try to steal from each
other like civilized people?


Wayne Throop throopw.RemoveThis@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
 >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing 

Howard Brazee wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:24:18 -0800, Tim Bruening
> <tsbrueni DeleteThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >But on page 89 of paperback "World Of Ptavvs", One Dale Synder says to
> >an
> >ARM (UN cop) named Lucas Garner "Let's suppose that the, uh, Sea Statue
> >civilization had a law against picking pockets. Most countries, you
> >know,
> >had such laws before we got so crowded that the cops couldn't enforce
> >them". In "Flatlander", a pickpocketer told Beowulf Shaffer in
> >"Flatlander" that there were no laws against pickpocketing. I therefore
> >got the impression that all laws banning pickpocketing had been repealed
> >and physically erased from the law books and legal codes!
> >
> >I have just figured out why pickpocketing might have been legalized
> >after it became impossible to stop: so that the pickpocketers would be
> >more likely to return the wallets after removing the money!
>
> The trouble with this logic is that we don't need a law against
> pickpocketing - all we need is a law against stealing. So in his
> environment I expect there's a law against stealing and laws listing
> when the first law doesn't apply.

A law saying it isn't "stealing" if the perp takes just the cash from the
wallet and promptly mails the wallet back to its owner?

> I don't see it. Maybe there's a law telling police not to worry
> about pickpocketing. Unless the victims are lawmakers, of course.
 >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing 

Quadibloc wrote:

> On Jan 2, 7:15 pm, il....DeleteThis@rcn.com wrote:
>
> > Not *entirely* goofy -- Niven explains that in Beowulf Schaeffer's
> > time pickpocketing is essentially a game of skill. If you notice the
> > pickpocket and catch his hand, you win. If you don't, he wins.
> > Returning your wallet afterwards is "common courtesy" -- failing to do
> > so is legal, but unsportsmanlike.
>
> Ah, so this is not the kind of world I envisaged based solely on the
> data in the initial post, it really is a _cultural_ difference.

The question then becomes: How did the change in culture to regarding
pickpocketing as a game of skill that should be legal come about?
 >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing 

ilya2.DeleteThis@rcn.com wrote:

> > Yes, the overarching implication is not just that the practice has been
> > decriminalized in the sense of it's no longer enforced, but rather that
> > it has been fully legalized and it is no longer in violation of any law
> > whatsoever. In other words, it's not that the police won't help you;
> > it's that the pickpockets _aren't doing anything wrong_.
> >
> > > I have just figured out why pickpocketing might have been legalized
> > > after it became impossible to stop: so that the pickpocketers would be
> > > more likely to return the wallets after removing the money!
> >
> > You've absolutely no incentive to return the wallet if you can't be
> > caught, and especially if _there is no law against what you're doing_.
> > The premise here is that it was legalized because it was impossible to
> > enforce. If so, even before it was legalized, there is zero incentive
> > to return the wallet, because you cannot possibly be identified. After
> > it's legalized, you're not even committing a crime anymore, so you're
> > free and clear to do whatever you like.
> >
> > This is why the notion is so fundamentally goofy.
>
> Not *entirely* goofy -- Niven explains that in Beowulf Schaeffer's
> time pickpocketing is essentially a game of skill. If you notice the
> pickpocket and catch his hand, you win. If you don't, he wins.
> Returning your wallet afterwards is "common courtesy" -- failing to do
> so is legal, but unsportsmanlike.

Larry Greenberg the telepath in "World of P'tavvs" ought to be good at
detecting pickpockets by reading their minds, and Gil "the Arm" Hamilton ought
to be good at pickpocketing with his psychic hand.
 >> Stay informed about: Legalized Pickpocketing