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Since: Jan 03, 2005 Posts: 50
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:40 am
Post subject: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding Archived from groups: rec>arts>books (more info?)
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Another well known classic here from 1954, known to many from school, I did
this at school too and remembered the basic premise of the story and the key
points but had really forgotten or not really noticed the power and quality
of both the writing and the storyline. Re visiting this as an adult perhaps
I'm more able to see it as a fine novel, influential too as the ideas there
have been used in more modern books and films (Alex Garlands superb book -
"The Beach" springs to mind) with a gripping and thought provoking
narrative. The copy I read the 1986 Faber & Faber educational edition had
the advantage of a detailed introduction as well as copious notes at the
back to explain each point in detail for use in the classroom. These notes
really helped and to be honest some of the questions had me stumped but that
may be down to my own lack of insight rather than the abilities of school
children it's aimed at! Even though I knew ultimately what would happen in
the descent to savagery, the path it takes still shocks and disturbs
slightly even now. This is one of those books that because of its school
associations we think we know and ultimately may dismiss but the power to
shock all these years later were actually quite surprising.
Strange too is the reaction now as a parent reading this novel. Reading as a
schoolchild I viewed it from the bear pit of the playground yet as an adult
I was able to disassociate myself from the characters and see them as the
children they ultimately are. To be honest I felt like giving the evil
protagonists a clip round the ear hole and telling them not to be so beastly
and play nicely to use the 50's parlance the book is written in. But it's a
book and the dreadful climax comes upon the reader with an awful
inevitability. Paradise tempts everyone at some point but quite often it
holds hidden dangers both within and without as the children found on the
island. I'm not at all sure whether this novel is used in schools now or if
it has been replaced by the modern Louis Sachar novel "Holes". It may
viewed by some as not really suitable in today's modern classroom given that
it could be viewed as dated both in its outlook and the terms of speech used
or the characterisation of public schoolboys, I don't know myself but given
the already mentioned far reaching ideas that spread into modern literature
perhaps it should be read just for its place in classic post war literature.
I liked this quick read, I found the re visiting of an book read many years
ago at school a delightful experience I hope other may view it in the same
way or even new younger readers discover a old classic.
Did you know the "The Lord of the Flies" is from the Arabic Baal- Zebub ,
Beelzebub one of the manifestations of the Devil? . I found that in the
notes!! >> Stay informed about: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding |
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Since: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 50
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:24 pm
Post subject: Re: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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sofa-spud wrote:
Did you know the "The Lord of the Flies" is from the Arabic Baal- Zebub
,
Beelzebub one of the manifestations of the Devil? . I found that in the
notes!!
********************
So what is the theme in the book? I'm agreeable to almost anything,
but I thought Golding was making a statement about human nature.
The theory I'm working on is that around the time he wrote the novel,
children were considered pure and innocent and were only corrupted
later in life. Golding is suggesting that the wicked way those little
boys act is just plain old human nature in action.
Or maybe he's saying that the corruption started early, and the
evil seed was planted and only needed fertile ground to grow.
What do you think?
Michael >> Stay informed about: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding |
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Since: Jan 02, 2005 Posts: 225
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:40 am
Post subject: Re: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Sep 05, 2004 Posts: 197
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:40 am
Post subject: Re: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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The Other wrote:
> "sofa-spud" <comfysofa.RemoveThis@here.ok> writes:
>
>
>>Did you know the "The Lord of the Flies" is from the Arabic Baal-
>>Zebub , Beelzebub one of the manifestations of the Devil? . I found
>>that in the notes!!
>
>
> Throw away the notes then.
>
> In the Old Testament, ba`al zvuv was the god of Ekron. There was no
> Arabic language back then.
Right about the OT, but I rather fancy the ancient Arabs must have
spoken something.
In any case, "beelzebub" is probably a bit of Hebrew wordplay, the
original god being named "beelzebul" ("lord of the high places"), but
changed to "beelzebub" ("lord of the flies") as an insult.
---
John W. Kennedy
Read the remains of Shakespeare's lost play, now annotated!
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://pws.prserv.net/jwkennedy/Double%20Falshood/index.html" target="_blank">http://pws.prserv.net/jwkennedy/Double%20Falshood/index.html</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding |
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Since: Jan 02, 2005 Posts: 225
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:40 am
Post subject: Re: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Jan 03, 2005 Posts: 50
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:40 am
Post subject: Re: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Michael" <robison_m.TakeThisOut@crane.navy.mil> wrote in message
news:1110763492.619785.166660@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> sofa-spud wrote:
>
> Did you know the "The Lord of the Flies" is from the Arabic Baal- Zebub
> ,
> Beelzebub one of the manifestations of the Devil? . I found that in the
>
> notes!!
>
> ********************
> So what is the theme in the book? I'm agreeable to almost anything,
> but I thought Golding was making a statement about human nature.
> The theory I'm working on is that around the time he wrote the novel,
> children were considered pure and innocent and were only corrupted
> later in life. Golding is suggesting that the wicked way those little
> boys act is just plain old human nature in action.
>
> Or maybe he's saying that the corruption started early, and the
> evil seed was planted and only needed fertile ground to grow.
>
> What do you think?
>
He has the children make references to the mystical adult world - they just
need a sign from the adult world and they get it in the form of the dead
pilot who fulfils their need for a monster. They do little more on the
island other than match what is happening in the adult world of the time -
war and savagery. Basically that the devil is in all of us from the word go.
To be honest I wish I hadn't mentioned what I found in the notes about
Beelzebub it seems to have enervated a lot of people not just here but other
boards too. I just thought it was interesting.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding |
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Since: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 50
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:46 am
Post subject: Re: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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sofa-spud wrote <snipped>:
To be honest I wish I hadn't mentioned what I found in the notes about
Beelzebub it seems to have enervated a lot of people not just here but
other
boards too.
***************
"Enervated" like a pit bull on a toddler? <g> Don't worry about it,
sofa.
Read and post!
Michael >> Stay informed about: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding |
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Since: May 16, 2004 Posts: 81
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:38 pm
Post subject: Re: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, The Other wrote:
> "John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne.TakeThisOut@attglobal.net> writes:
[...]
> > In any case, "beelzebub" is probably a bit of Hebrew wordplay, the
> > original god being named "beelzebul" ("lord of the high places"),
> > but changed to "beelzebub" ("lord of the flies") as an insult.
>
> If you mean the reference in the Bible, that seems like a tone-deaf
> explanation. The Bible is full of word-play, but the narrator of the
> Deuteronomic History doesn't joke around like that. Characters in the
> History certainly do -- that sort of insult would fit pretty well with
> Elijah's mocking of the pagan gods on Mt. Carmel -- but the
> Deuteronomic narrator is above that kind of game.
What about 2 Samuel (KJV online), where they tell us about "Ishbosheth"?
You think his mama really named him "Man of Shame"?
> I could believe that maybe "ba`al zvul" had already morphed into
> "ba`al zvuv" before then, or maybe afterwards by scribes, but is there
> any evidence of that at all? Or is it like your 9th-century BC Arabic
> language?
Evidence, shmevidence. In the "Old Testament" you see stuff like that
all the time. In this case I'd want to know how different the Hebrew
letters are, or especially were in the form used those many moons ago.
Then I'd want to know why they'd have played around with "Ishbosheth"
but let this ba`al get off unmorphed, if that's what you think went on.
But generally, given that I live in Louisville -- locally pronounced
LOO-uh-vuhl -- that sounds might get changed is not surprising. (When
did you last use "wustashur" sauce?) Compared to that, that "ba'al
zvul" might get one letter altered, intentionally or not, is trivial.
(Out of towners slide by with LOO-ee-vill; I pointedly say "Lewisville"
from out of back-hand range.)
And speaking of pronounciation, I rather like the spin an ex-landlord
from the Philipines gave my name....
Yours Truly,
"Debit"
P.S. And by the way, ain't "the Deuteronomic narrator" Moses himself?
--
"Old whores don't giggle much."
....................................................................
(C) 2005 TheDavid^TM | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding |
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Since: Sep 05, 2004 Posts: 197
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:40 pm
Post subject: Re: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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The Other wrote:
> "John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne.DeleteThis@attglobal.net> writes:
> Or is it like your 9th-century BC Arabic
> language?
Arabs are, in fact, attested in the 9th-century BC,
---
John W. Kennedy
"...when you're trying to build a house of cards, the last thing you
should do is blow hard and wave your hands like a madman."
-- Rupert Goodwins<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding |
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Since: Jan 02, 2005 Posts: 225
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:40 am
Post subject: Beelzebub [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Jan 02, 2005 Posts: 225
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:40 am
Post subject: Re: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Sep 05, 2004 Posts: 197
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:40 pm
Post subject: Re: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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The Other wrote:
> "John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne DeleteThis @attglobal.net> writes:
>
>
>>Arabs are, in fact, attested in the 9th-century BC,
>
>
> Arabs who spoke the Arabic language back then? Could you give a
> reference for that? (Looks like I may have to admit I was wrong...)
>
> Anyway, let's say you're right about that, that there were people
> speaking Arabic then. What would those Arabic speakers have to do
> with Ekron -- that's where ba`al zvuv/zvul had his house, remember --
> a city on the border of Judah and Philistia?
I never said there was a connection.
---
John W. Kennedy
"Give up vows and dogmas, and fixed things, and you may grow like That.
....you may come to think a blow bad, because it hurts, and not because
it humiliates. You may come to think murder wrong, because it is
violent, and not because it is unjust."
-- G. K. Chesterton. "The Ball and the Cross"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding |
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Since: May 16, 2004 Posts: 81
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Beelzebub [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, The Other wrote:
> David <thedavid DeleteThis @shell.rawbw.com> writes:
[...]
> > But generally, given that I live in Louisville -- locally pronounced
> > LOO-uh-vuhl -- that sounds might get changed is not surprising.
>
> I've never seen "Louisville" written "LOO-uh-vuhl".
>
> > (When did you last use "wustashur" sauce?)
>
> I've never seen it written that way.
Oh, now you're separating "writing" from "speech", which is ridiculous
since my point was that words (whether written or oral) get changed.
If you're going to be so literalistic you might as well handle snakes
and drink strychnine.
Sighingly,
D.
P.S. I could troll you back by asking whether Israel is more "democratic"
for its Arabs than Salt Lake City is for its Jews. But I won't: it's clear
that compared to "Desertet" Israel is an anarcho-syndicalist commune. Just
ask the SLC Baptists!
--
"Old whores don't giggle much."
....................................................................
(C) 2005 TheDavid^TM | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding |
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Since: May 16, 2004 Posts: 81
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:39 pm
Post subject: Re: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, John W. Kennedy wrote:
> The Other wrote:
> > "John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne.TakeThisOut@attglobal.net> writes:
> >
> >>Arabs are, in fact, attested in the 9th-century BC,
> >
> > Arabs who spoke the Arabic language back then? Could you give a
> > reference for that? (Looks like I may have to admit I was wrong...)
Uh, why is that surprising, given that inhabitants of Canaan and its
environs were speaking Hebrew back then, and inscribing it on stelae?
> > Anyway, let's say you're right about that, that there were people
> > speaking Arabic then. What would those Arabic speakers have to do
> > with Ekron -- that's where ba`al zvuv/zvul had his house, remember --
> > a city on the border of Judah and Philistia?
>
> I never said there was a connection.
He's on the rag or something. It'll pass; sometimes he's even fun to read.
D.
--
"Old whores don't giggle much."
....................................................................
(C) 2005 TheDavid^TM | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding |
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Since: Jan 02, 2005 Posts: 225
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:40 am
Post subject: Re: The Lord Of the Flies - William Golding [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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