What is LotR *really* about?

Chris Schumacher <kensu__.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> wrote in

>> It's desire OF MEN for deathlessness.

> I don't remember any of the mortal characters exactly showing a
> preference for immortality.

LotR, V.7:

'Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of
your death,' answered Gandalf. 'And only the heathen kings, under the
domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and
despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.'

LotR, Appendix A:

Elros was the first King of Númenor, and was afterwards known by the
High-elven name Tar-Minyatur. His descendants were long-lived but mortal.
Later when they became powerful they begrudged the choice of their
forefather, desiring the immortality within the life of the world that was
the fate of the Eldar, and murmuring against the Ban. In this way began
their rebellion which, under the evil teaching of Sauron, brought about
the Downfall of Númenor and the ruin of the ancient world, as is told in
the Akallabêth.

LotR, also Appendix A:

"[...] There is now no ship that would bear the hence, and I must
indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and
the silence. But I say to you, King of the Númenoreans, not till
now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As
wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is
indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to
receive."

"So it seems," he said. "But let us not be overthrown at the final test,
who of old renounced the Shadow and the Ring. In sorrow we must go, but
not in despair. Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the
world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!"

Enough? One can also see the effect if mortals try to achieve immortality
by "mechanic" means (i.e., the Ring):

"Why, I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean:
like butter that has been scraped over too much bread. That can't be
right. I need a change, or something."

And the whole "immortal elves vs. mortal men" situation is of course
about this subject.

- Dirk
 >> Stay informed about: What is LotR *really* about? 

Chris Schumacher wrote:
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> wrote in
> news:MPG.2100adb22431f18f98ae61@news.individual.net:
>
>> It's desire OF MEN for deathlessness.
>>
>
> I don't remember any of the mortal characters exactly showing a preference
> for immortality. It's not like Sauron offered any of them a chance at
> immortality.
> I mean, you could argue that's what the bearers of the the Nine were after,
> but I suspect they were really after the power the rings would give them.
> They might not have even know the rings would extend their lives.

Heck, even SAURON may not have known the Rings would extend their lives.
Yes, he knew more Ringlore than anyone else, but it's quite possible
that NO ONE knew that. After all, they had been designed for Elves;
their effect on Men would likely be mere speculation prior to the
Nazgul's creation. Their effect on Dwarves was certainly unexpected.



---
Graham
 >> Stay informed about: What is LotR *really* about? 

Dirk Thierbach <dthierbach.DeleteThis@usenet.arcornews.de> wrote in
news:20070713090930.B60.1.NOFFLE@dthierbach.news.arcor.de:

> Elros was the first King of Númenor, and was afterwards known by the
> High-elven name Tar-Minyatur. His descendants were long-lived but

But that's hardly the moral OF LOTR. It's certainly the moral of
Akallabeth, but by the time of LOTR, what's left of the Numenorans have
certainly learned their lesson.
Now, I grant you, the fall of Numenor is extremely important background
material, even more I daresay, then the War of The Jewels. Yet I would
still not make the quest for deathlessness the central theme of that
particular work.
The Dead, for instance, are deathless, but they didn't choose that path, it
was forced upon them.


-==Kensu==-
 >> Stay informed about: What is LotR *really* about? 

Chris Schumacher <kensu__.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dirk Thierbach <dthierbach.DeleteThis@usenet.arcornews.de> wrote in
> news:20070713090930.B60.1.NOFFLE@dthierbach.news.arcor.de:

>> Elros was the first King of Númenor, and was afterwards known by the
>> High-elven name Tar-Minyatur. His descendants were long-lived but

> But that's hardly the moral OF LOTR.

But we're not talking about the "moral". And I doubt it has one.
(BTW, I think that's what Tolkien mainly meant with the part of the
foreword that has now been quoted twice.)

> It's certainly the moral of Akallabeth, but by the time of LOTR,
> what's left of the Numenorans have certainly learned their lesson.

"They" haven't -- see Denethor. And the point is not so much that you
can pin that to "the Numenoreans", it's about a very fundamental human
condition, of which the Numenoreans are just an example.

And why not just ask Tolkien himself? Letter #186:

The real theme for me is about something much more permanent and
difficult: Death and Immortality: the mystery of the love of the world
in the hearts of a race 'doomed' to leave and seemingly lose it; the
anguish in the hearts of a race 'doomed' not to leave it, until its
whole evil-aroused story is complete. But if you have now read
Vol. III and the story of Aragorn, you will have perceived that.

You have to take the expression "real theme" with a grain of salt, it
just means "a very important theme" (otherwise Tolkien would
contradict himself

> The Dead, for instance, are deathless, but they didn't choose that
> path, it was forced upon them.

Yes. So, unsurprisingly, they are not an example where the above \
theme is made manifest.

- Dirk
 >> Stay informed about: What is LotR *really* about? 

pseudonimofaqhater.RemoveThis@yahoo.com.br wrote:

> On Jul 12, 7:56 pm, Derek Broughton <n....RemoveThis@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>> Stan Brown wrote:
>> > Thu, 12 Jul 2007 09:55:36 -0300 from Derek Broughton
>> > <n....RemoveThis@pointerstop.ca>:
>> >> a.bit.of.fry.and.lau....RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> > Seemingly an easy question to answer: "it's about Frodo's quest
>> >> > to destroy the One Ring and, as a backdrop, about the war in
>> >> > Middle- earth". But it's not that simple, is it. So what *is* it
>> >> > about?
>>
>> ...
>>
>> >> Metallurgy (perhaps should be higher on the list)
>>
>> > It is about those things (not metallurgy at all, IMHO),
>>
>> C'mon! Forging of rings, forgery of rings, smelters in Orodruin,
>> smelters in Ancalagon the Black (OK - he doesn't actually enter the story
>> of LOTR),
>> dwarven mines and smelting anything that even looks like a metal. Heavy
>> Metal, man!
>
> You have a point, but the three dominant themes of LOTR are:
>
> Capitalism
> Plate tectonics
> Eels

I considered Plate tectonics, but decided that's all strictly prior to LOTR.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: What is LotR *really* about? 

Stan Brown wrote:

> Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:56:00 -0300 from Derek Broughton
> <news DeleteThis @pointerstop.ca>:
>> Stan Brown wrote:
>
>> > It is about those things (not metallurgy at all, IMHO),
>>
>> C'mon! Forging of rings, forgery of rings, smelters in Orodruin,
>> smelters in Ancalagon the Black (OK - he doesn't actually enter the
>> story of LOTR), dwarven mines and smelting anything that even looks
>> like a metal. Heavy Metal, man!
>
> None of those are metallurgy, any more than the mention of elanor and
> mellyrn is botany.
>
Jeez Stan, get a sense of humor.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: What is LotR *really* about? 

On Jul 12, 10:15 pm, Chris Schumacher <kens... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> pseudonimofaqha... DeleteThis @yahoo.com.br wrote innews:1184290062.962425.191420@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com:
>
> > You have a point, but the three dominant themes of LOTR are:
>
> > Capitalism
> > Plate tectonics
> > Eels

what arrant nonsense.

> Actually the three main themes are:
>
> Bookends
> Pumice
> West Germany.

in my opinion, LOTR is an insidiously brilliant anti-balrog and anti-
orc propaganda piece. such beautiful writing in the service of hate!
how much did the elf-lobby pay you for THAT, mr. tolkien?
 >> Stay informed about: What is LotR *really* about? 

"All of them at once," said Bilbo. "And a very fine morning
for a pipe of tobacco out of doors, into the bargain. ..."
 >> Stay informed about: What is LotR *really* about? 

Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:44:01 -0300 from Derek Broughton
<news.TakeThisOut@pointerstop.ca>:
> Stan Brown wrote:
>
> > Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:56:00 -0300 from Derek Broughton
> > <news.TakeThisOut@pointerstop.ca>:
> >> Stan Brown wrote:
> >> > It is about those things (not metallurgy at all, IMHO),

> >> C'mon! Forging of rings, forgery of rings, smelters in Orodruin,
> >> smelters in Ancalagon the Black (OK - he doesn't actually enter the
> >> story of LOTR), dwarven mines and smelting anything that even looks
> >> like a metal. Heavy Metal, man!

> > None of those are metallurgy, any more than the mention of elanor and
> > mellyrn is botany.

> Jeez Stan, get a sense of humor.

Jeez, Derek, get over yourself.

Disagreeing with you is hardly an indication that one lacks a sense
of humor.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: What is LotR *really* about? 

On Jul 15, 2:07 pm, Derek Broughton <n....DeleteThis@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
> Stan Brown wrote:
> > Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:44:01 -0300 from Derek Broughton
> > <n....DeleteThis@pointerstop.ca>:
> >> Stan Brown wrote:
>
> >> > Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:56:00 -0300 from Derek Broughton
> >> > <n....DeleteThis@pointerstop.ca>:
> >> >> Stan Brown wrote:
> >> >> > It is about those things (not metallurgy at all, IMHO),
>
> >> >> C'mon! Forging of rings, forgery of rings, smelters in Orodruin,
> >> >> smelters in Ancalagon the Black (OK - he doesn't actually enter the
> >> >> story of LOTR), dwarven mines and smelting anything that even looks
> >> >> like a metal. Heavy Metal, man!
>
> >> > None of those are metallurgy, any more than the mention of elanor and
> >> > mellyrn is botany.
>
> >> Jeez Stan, get a sense of humor.
>
> > Jeez, Derek, get over yourself.
>
> > Disagreeing with you is hardly an indication that one lacks a sense
> > of humor.
>
> Picking at other people's attempts at humor - however poor - _does_ indicate
> such a lack.

To get back on track, let's pursue the botany question. Arguably,
botany IS one of the dominant themes of LOTR. Did Tolkien describe the
cellular structure of symbelmyne anywhere? Was it Rosaceae or
soemthing else?
 >> Stay informed about: What is LotR *really* about? 

Stan Brown wrote:

> Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:44:01 -0300 from Derek Broughton
> <news.DeleteThis@pointerstop.ca>:
>> Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>> > Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:56:00 -0300 from Derek Broughton
>> > <news.DeleteThis@pointerstop.ca>:
>> >> Stan Brown wrote:
>> >> > It is about those things (not metallurgy at all, IMHO),
>
>> >> C'mon! Forging of rings, forgery of rings, smelters in Orodruin,
>> >> smelters in Ancalagon the Black (OK - he doesn't actually enter the
>> >> story of LOTR), dwarven mines and smelting anything that even looks
>> >> like a metal. Heavy Metal, man!
>
>> > None of those are metallurgy, any more than the mention of elanor and
>> > mellyrn is botany.
>
>> Jeez Stan, get a sense of humor.
>
> Jeez, Derek, get over yourself.
>
> Disagreeing with you is hardly an indication that one lacks a sense
> of humor.
>
Picking at other people's attempts at humor - however poor - _does_ indicate
such a lack.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: What is LotR *really* about? 

Sun, 15 Jul 2007 15:07:54 -0300 from Derek Broughton
<news.RemoveThis@pointerstop.ca>:
> Stan Brown wrote:
>
> > Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:44:01 -0300 from Derek Broughton
> > <news.RemoveThis@pointerstop.ca>:
> >> Stan Brown wrote:
> >>
> >> > Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:56:00 -0300 from Derek Broughton
> >> > <news.RemoveThis@pointerstop.ca>:
> >> Jeez Stan, get a sense of humor.
> >
> > Jeez, Derek, get over yourself.
> >
> > Disagreeing with you is hardly an indication that one lacks a sense
> > of humor.
> >
> Picking at other people's attempts at humor - however poor - _does_ indicate
> such a lack.

Honey, you've made the classic Usenet mistake -- posting something
that was "obviously" humorous -- except it wasn't obvious. This is
why you should always put a smiley on anything meant to be humorous.

See "A Primer on How to Work With the Usenet Community" at
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/primer/part1/
and scroll down about 40% of the page.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: What is LotR *really* about? 

Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:54:22 -0700 from
<pseudonimofaqhater RemoveThis @yahoo.com.br>:
> To get back on track, let's pursue the botany question. Arguably,
> botany IS one of the dominant themes of LOTR. Did Tolkien describe the
> cellular structure of symbelmyne anywhere? Was it Rosaceae or
> soemthing else?

I submit that there's a lot of enjoyment and appreciation of flowers
and trees, but I don't see how that can be called botany. Botany
would involve studying their structure and function, and if I'm not
mistaken Tolkien never does that.

As for simbelmyne, I've always pictured it a lot like sweet alyssum.
It's always seemed to me like it should be a ground cover, since it
grows on burial mounds.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: What is LotR *really* about?