Lying to the Enemy

<stephen.RemoveThis@nomail.com> wrote in message news:bvbnof$1vsc$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
> At the Black Gate, Aragorn says the following:
> "Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth! Justice shall be
> done upon him. For wrongfully he has made war upon Gondor
> and wrested its lands. Therefore the King of Gondor demands
> that he should atone for his evils, and depart then for ever."
> He says this knowing full well that the Ring is hopefully on its
> way to be destroyed, and that he has no way of changing Frodo's mission.
> This is kind of like launching the missiles first, and then beginning
> negotiations. Of course there was no expectation that Sauron would comply
> with Aragorn's command, but what if he had? Would it still be just to
> destroy him? Was Aragorn being honest?

The ring's destruction doesn't destroy Sauron's being, only destroys
his power. Which would surely *be* justice, one way or another,
given how Sauron had used and abused all power he had ever
possessed or been given.

Aris Katsaris
 >> Stay informed about: Lying to the Enemy 

Aris Katsaris <katsaris.TakeThisOut@otenet.gr> wrote:

: <stephen.TakeThisOut@nomail.com> wrote in message news:bvbnof$1vsc$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
:> At the Black Gate, Aragorn says the following:
:> "Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth! Justice shall be
:> done upon him. For wrongfully he has made war upon Gondor
:> and wrested its lands. Therefore the King of Gondor demands
:> that he should atone for his evils, and depart then for ever."
:> He says this knowing full well that the Ring is hopefully on its
:> way to be destroyed, and that he has no way of changing Frodo's mission.
:> This is kind of like launching the missiles first, and then beginning
:> negotiations. Of course there was no expectation that Sauron would comply
:> with Aragorn's command, but what if he had? Would it still be just to
:> destroy him? Was Aragorn being honest?

: The ring's destruction doesn't destroy Sauron's being, only destroys
: his power. Which would surely *be* justice, one way or another,
: given how Sauron had used and abused all power he had ever
: possessed or been given.

: Aris Katsaris

Killing an Elf or human does not destroy them either. Destroying
the Ring crippled Sauron in such a way that he would never recover.
This was going to happen no matter how Sauron responded to
Aragorn's offer (disregarding possible intervention by God).

Stephen
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"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown.TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a8377a9e822763598bd1b@news.odyssey.net...
> It seems "Aris Katsaris" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
> >The ring's destruction doesn't destroy Sauron's being, only destroys
> >his power.
>
> Does his fea go out of existence? No, Eru has ordained that fear are
> indestructible.
>
> But Sauron is effectively destroyed: he loses the ability every to
> assume a shape again, because part of the power he lost was the
> power to assume a shape. Thus he may continue in the world, but
> cannot affect it.

I would challenge that last sentence.
As Tolkien says elsewhere (often), even after being expelled to the Void,
Morgoth's "shadow" is capable of affecting a great many hearts and their
decisions. I imagine Sauron's shadow, too, will have that effect, and that
Tolkien knew it well and therefore did not look too optimistically at the
ages that would follow Aragorn's reign.

Tsar Parmathule
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I don't believe to be a Tolkien scholar, but I think you completely miss
the point. At the end of 3th age Sauron is definitively an incarnation of
evil, as Melkor was, virtually equal to the position of satan in Christian
theology. Now you are asking if it is honest for a human tricking satan to
escape his victory?
IMO the fundamental difference between tricking Sauron and, say, harming
Gollum is that the redemption of G. is to be sought, but Sauron's is out of
the reach of any Eru's creature. Sauron is only the Enemy you can fight.
Gandalf felt pity "even of the Enemy slaves", but not of Sauron himself.
Sincerely yours

--
Krzysztof Okon
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In article <1dfgy4bte93hm.1k94ho09rxbdg.dlg.DeleteThis@40tude.net>, "Krzysztof
(Suzuki Nakai)" <krzysiu_md.DeleteThis@poczta.onet.pl> wrote:

> I don't believe to be a Tolkien scholar, but I think you completely miss
> the point. At the end of 3th age Sauron is definitively an incarnation of
> evil, as Melkor was, virtually equal to the position of satan in Christian
> theology. Now you are asking if it is honest for a human tricking satan to
> escape his victory?

aragorn had no sovereignity over frodo at the time
frodo was a free agent to pursue saurons destruction or not
regardless of what aragorn was doing

aragorns bravado on the march to the black gates
was to further the pretence that he had the ring
and he was attempting to use its power against sauron

if you believe heroes are not allowed to use feints
and deceptive counterintelligence in war
to achieve their victoriess
then aragorn is not a hero

but on the scale of morality
i think the moral question of whether you trying
to annihilate another intelligent creature
weighs heavier than whether you trying
to deceive another intelligent creature


> the reach of any Eru's creature. Sauron is only the Enemy you can fight.
> Gandalf felt pity "even of the Enemy slaves", but not of Sauron himself.

its easy to pity someone grovelling at your feet
its harder to pity someone at whose feet you are groveling

i think the ringwraiths are the most pitiful creatures in the story
followed closely by sauron

read what frodo says about remembering water when they are in mordor
i cant think of anything worse than that kind of existence
stretched for thousands or millions of years

pity does not mean you take no action to constrain anothers behavior
 >> Stay informed about: Lying to the Enemy 

stephen.RemoveThis@nomail.com wrote in message news:<bvbnof$1vsc$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>...
> At the Black Gate, Aragorn says the following:
> "Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth! Justice shall be
> done upon him. For wrongfully he has made war upon Gondor
> and wrested its lands. Therefore the King of Gondor demands
> that he should atone for his evils, and depart then for ever."
> He says this knowing full well that the Ring is hopefully on its
> way to be destroyed, and that he has no way of changing Frodo's mission.
> This is kind of like launching the missiles first, and then beginning
> negotiations. Of course there was no expectation that Sauron would comply
> with Aragorn's command, but what if he had?

If he had, then he would have atoned for his evils and departed then
forever.

When he did not, he atoned for his evils and departed then forever,
his refusal to come forth notwithstanding.

There was no lie.

> Would it still be just to
> destroy him?

Of course. That would cover both 'atonement' and 'departing' in
one swell foop.


> Was Aragorn being honest?

Impeccably.

--

FF
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On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 06:47:25 GMT,
A Tsar Is Born <AtsarisbornNoSpam.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown.RemoveThis@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1a8377a9e822763598bd1b@news.odyssey.net...
>> It seems "Aris Katsaris" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>> >The ring's destruction doesn't destroy Sauron's being, only destroys
>> >his power.
>>
>> Does his fea go out of existence? No, Eru has ordained that fear are
>> indestructible.
>>
>> But Sauron is effectively destroyed: he loses the ability every to
>> assume a shape again, because part of the power he lost was the
>> power to assume a shape. Thus he may continue in the world, but
>> cannot affect it.
>
> I would challenge that last sentence.
> As Tolkien says elsewhere (often), even after being expelled to the Void,
> Morgoth's "shadow" is capable of affecting a great many hearts and their
> decisions. I imagine Sauron's shadow, too, will have that effect, and that
> Tolkien knew it well and therefore did not look too optimistically at the
> ages that would follow Aragorn's reign.

I'm not too confident that Sauron would ever again be capable of any action
in Arda. Morgoth's situation is a bit different, in that whether he is
consciously able to influence events in Arda or not, most of his power
remains in Arda, working ill as Arda Marred.

I really don't think Sauron was ever again going to be a problem for the
dwellers in mortal lands.

--
Aaron Clausen

tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)
 >> Stay informed about: Lying to the Enemy 

"Aris Katsaris" <katsaris.DeleteThis@otenet.gr> wrote in message news:<bvbo47$28k0$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>...
> <stephen.DeleteThis@nomail.com> wrote in message news:bvbnof$1vsc$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
> > At the Black Gate, Aragorn says the following:
> > "Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth! Justice shall be
> > done upon him. For wrongfully he has made war upon Gondor
> > and wrested its lands. Therefore the King of Gondor demands
> > that he should atone for his evils, and depart then for ever."
> > He says this knowing full well that the Ring is hopefully on its
> > way to be destroyed, and that he has no way of changing Frodo's mission.
> > This is kind of like launching the missiles first, and then beginning
> > negotiations. Of course there was no expectation that Sauron would comply
> > with Aragorn's command, but what if he had? Would it still be just to
> > destroy him? Was Aragorn being honest?
>
> The ring's destruction doesn't destroy Sauron's being, only destroys
> his power. Which would surely *be* justice, one way or another,
> given how Sauron had used and abused all power he had ever
> possessed or been given.
>
> Aris Katsaris

Is there any Tolkien's work in which is described what happened to
Sauron after destruction of the ring ? I mea, did Sauron continue to
exist ? Because it seems after LotR that the destruction of the Ring
is followed by the destruction of Sauron.
 >> Stay informed about: Lying to the Enemy 

> Is there any Tolkien's work in which is described what happened to
> Sauron after destruction of the ring ? I mea, did Sauron continue to
> exist ? Because it seems after LotR that the destruction of the Ring
> is followed by the destruction of Sauron.

in jrrts interpretation once a soul is created
not even god can destroy it

so sauron will exist forever

but with the ring destroyed he is so reduced
as to be bodiless and thus without instrumentality
for a very long time
perhaps until the end of the world

he can whisper in the night
and try to trick others to do his will
but he can no longer force anything to his will
 >> Stay informed about: Lying to the Enemy 

"loisillon" <loisillon.DeleteThis@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
news:d1eee332.0401311600.3cbba0d8@posting.google.com...
> "Aris Katsaris" <katsaris.DeleteThis@otenet.gr> wrote in message
news:<bvbo47$28k0$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>...
> > <stephen.DeleteThis@nomail.com> wrote in message
news:bvbnof$1vsc$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
> > > At the Black Gate, Aragorn says the following:
> > > "Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth! Justice shall be
> > > done upon him. For wrongfully he has made war upon Gondor
> > > and wrested its lands. Therefore the King of Gondor demands
> > > that he should atone for his evils, and depart then for ever."
> > > He says this knowing full well that the Ring is hopefully on its
> > > way to be destroyed, and that he has no way of changing Frodo's mission.
> > > This is kind of like launching the missiles first, and then beginning
> > > negotiations. Of course there was no expectation that Sauron would
comply
> > > with Aragorn's command, but what if he had? Would it still be just to
> > > destroy him? Was Aragorn being honest?
> >
> > The ring's destruction doesn't destroy Sauron's being, only destroys
> > his power. Which would surely *be* justice, one way or another,
> > given how Sauron had used and abused all power he had ever
> > possessed or been given.
>
> Is there any Tolkien's work in which is described what happened to
> Sauron after destruction of the ring ? I mea, did Sauron continue to
> exist ?

Yeah, that's explicitely stated that he would continue to exist. In LOTR
itself, that's explicitely stated.

***
ROTK, Book V, Chapter 9: "The Last Debate"

"Concerning this thing, my lords, you now all know enough for the
understanding of our plight, and of Sauron's. If he regains it, your
valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete
that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is
destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can
foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the
strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made
or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever,
becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but
cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will
be removed."
***

His extermination is never even contemplated, as it would after all
be impossible to achieve -- no spirit can be destroyed, even though
they can be incapacitated to the point of never being able to
meaningfully interact with the material universe any longer..

> Because it seems after LotR that the destruction of the Ring
> is followed by the destruction of Sauron.

Not so... not so. Not in the books atleast.

Aris Katsaris
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"cassandras morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges" <mair_fheal.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com>
wrote in message news:mair_fheal-3101041646470001@c140.ppp.tsoft.com...
> > Is there any Tolkien's work in which is described what happened to
> > Sauron after destruction of the ring ? I mea, did Sauron continue to
> > exist ? Because it seems after LotR that the destruction of the Ring
> > is followed by the destruction of Sauron.
>
> in jrrts interpretation once a soul is created
> not even god can destroy it

Where is that stated?

> he can whisper in the night
> and try to trick others to do his will

I somehow doubt that he will even be able to trick
anyone...

Aris Katsaris
 >> Stay informed about: Lying to the Enemy 

"Aris Katsaris" <katsaris.DeleteThis@otenet.gr> wrote in message news:<bvhi8m$p48$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>...

.... cut
> >
> > Is there any Tolkien's work in which is described what happened to
> > Sauron after destruction of the ring ? I mea, did Sauron continue to
> > exist ?
>
> Yeah, that's explicitely stated that he would continue to exist. In LOTR
> itself, that's explicitely stated.
>
> ***
> ROTK, Book V, Chapter 9: "The Last Debate"
>
> "Concerning this thing, my lords, you now all know enough for the
> understanding of our plight, and of Sauron's. If he regains it, your
> valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete
> that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is
> destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can
> foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the
> strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made
> or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever,
> becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but
> cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will
> be removed."
> ***
>
> His extermination is never even contemplated, as it would after all
> be impossible to achieve -- no spirit can be destroyed, even though
> they can be incapacitated to the point of never being able to
> meaningfully interact with the material universe any longer..
>
> > Because it seems after LotR that the destruction of the Ring
> > is followed by the destruction of Sauron.
>
> Not so... not so. Not in the books atleast.
>
> Aris Katsaris

Thanks, I Shall read again the Chapter ...
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stephen DeleteThis @nomail.com wrote:

>At the Black Gate, Aragorn says the following:
> "Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth! Justice shall be
> done upon him. For wrongfully he has made war upon Gondor
> and wrested its lands. Therefore the King of Gondor demands
> that he should atone for his evils, and depart then for ever."
>He says this knowing full well that the Ring is hopefully on its
>way to be destroyed, and that he has no way of changing Frodo's mission.
>This is kind of like launching the missiles first, and then beginning
>negotiations. Of course there was no expectation that Sauron would comply
>with Aragorn's command, but what if he had? Would it still be just to
>destroy him? Was Aragorn being honest?

Not to mention the fact that it is physically impossible for
Movie-Sauron to move, let alone "come forth". Movie-Aragorn is
perfectly safe in issuing this challenge; there is exactly zero chance
of Movie-Sauron taking him up on it.
--
I still mostly download on Saturdays & upload on Sundays. Patience is a virtue.
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