DID THE MORTALS BILBO, FRODO, SAM, GIMLI DIE IN THE UNDYIN..

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
 > HAL <hal.RemoveThis@hal.com> wrote:
   > >> I believe I read somewhere that Tolkien once said a mortal who was
   > >> permitted to live to Valanor (Undying Land) would live their
normal
   > >> lifespan and eventually die there e.g. BILBO, FRODO, SAM, and
   > >> GIMLI. Does anyone know if this is true statement and when did
   > >> Tolkien say it?
 >
 > Letters.
 >
  > > I found the answer to my question by reading FAQ from this group.
They
  > > died.
 >
 > The Jensen variant of Fry's Law: If you ask a question on this
newsgroup
 > about something you used to know, but have forgotten, the answer will
be
 > in the FAQ.

And it will be WRONG!!! Wrong, wrong, wrong!! - Morambar's Law.

Morambar Udunvagor,
Keeper of BUQ, UTSO and STEU of AFT and RABT, Leader of UFBAF

"As the Twilight of Life has settled upon me, I have observed of
finding great comfort from thoughts of Frodo and his eternal bliss."
-JRRT, footnote, page 23, BUQ<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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HAL <hal.TakeThisOut@hal.com> wrote:
  >> I believe I read somewhere that Tolkien once said a mortal who was
  >> permitted to live to Valanor (Undying Land) would live their normal
  >> lifespan and eventually die there e.g. BILBO, FRODO, SAM, and
  >> GIMLI. Does anyone know if this is true statement and when did
  >> Tolkien say it?

Letters.

 > I found the answer to my question by reading FAQ from this group. They
 > died.

The Jensen variant of Fry's Law: If you ask a question on this newsgroup
about something you used to know, but have forgotten, the answer will be
in the FAQ.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: DID THE MORTALS BILBO, FRODO, SAM, GIMLI DIE IN THE UNDYIN.. 

On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 23:10:09 GMT,
HAL <hal DeleteThis @hal.com> wrote:
 > I believe I read somewhere that Tolkien once said a mortal who was
 > permitted to live to Valanor (Undying Land) would live their normal
 > lifespan and eventually die there e.g. BILBO, FRODO, SAM, and GIMLI. Does
 > anyone know if this is true statement and when did Tolkien say it?

I'm not certain of when the conception of mortals even thinking about going
to the Undying Lands arose, although I'm assuming it must have been with the
first workings of the Numenor portion of the mythology around 1937. The
general idea that the Undying Lands would not give Men immortality was
around from that point at least.

In the latter stages in the 1960s, JRRT revisited the issue, coming up with
some frightening prospects, like a Man's body not dying, even though his
spirit departing Arda.

--
mightymartianca DeleteThis @hotmail.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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HAL wrote:

 >
 >
  >> I believe I read somewhere that Tolkien once said a mortal who was
  >> permitted to live to Valanor (Undying Land) would live their normal
  >> lifespan and eventually die there e.g. BILBO, FRODO, SAM, and
  >> GIMLI. Does anyone know if this is true statement and when did
  >> Tolkien say it?
  >>
 >
 > I found the answer to my question by reading FAQ from this group.
 > They died.

Can I assume that this is not true of Tuor, who was "counted among the
Eldar"?

Best,

--
Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband
ancalagon.the.black DeleteThis @virgin.net

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"Ancalagon The Black" <ancalagon.the.black.DeleteThis@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:1113153940_523@exe-east.n...
 > HAL wrote:
  > >
   > >> I believe I read somewhere that Tolkien once said a mortal who was
   > >> permitted to live to Valanor (Undying Land) would live their normal
   > >> lifespan and eventually die there e.g. BILBO, FRODO, SAM, and
   > >> GIMLI. Does anyone know if this is true statement and when did
   > >> Tolkien say it?

<snip>

 > Can I assume that this is not true of Tuor, who was "counted among the
 > Eldar"?

Good question.

In the Athrabeth, Finrod tells Andreth that Aegnor did not want to see
her grow old and die, so why didn't they just try and get Andreth to "do
a Tuor" and become Elvish? Apart from the fact that Tuor hadn't "done a
Tuor" yet. I suspect that the answer lies in the genuine, heartfelt
choices made by those mortals and Elves who fall in love with each
other. They really do have to choose between their 'race' and their
'love'. I don't think it should be assumed that love always wins.
Sometimes the love is there, but it is not enough for the person to take
the ultimate step of becoming mortal, or of becoming an Elf.

We see this race-love opposition most clearly in the description of the
choices made by Elwing and Earendil:

"Elwing chose to be judged among the Firstborn Children of Iluvatar,
because of Luthien; and for her sake Earendil chose alike, though his
heart was rather with the kindred of Men and the people of his father."
(Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath)

And also in Arwen's choice:

"I will cleave to you, Dunadan, and turn from the Twilight. Yet there
lies the land of my people and the long home of all my kin." (Appendix
A, LotR)

And even a lesser version of this choice in the song of Legolas, as he
responds to the call of his 'race' or nature:

"Sweet are the voices in the Lost Isle calling,
In Eressea, in Elvenhome that no man can discover,
Where the leaves fall not: land of my people for ever!"
(The Field of Cormallen)

Returning to the case of Andreth and Aegnor, it seems that love was not
enough to overcome the particular circumstances (war and maybe also the
Doom of the Noldor), but the final words of Finrod to Andreth are
strange, because while they emphasize the fundamental difference between
Men and Elves, they also hint of ultimate hope:

"But you are not for Arda. Whither you go may you find light. Await us
there, my brother - and me." (Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth)

Christopher

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"Ancalagon The Black" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
 >HAL wrote:
  >> I found the answer to my question by reading FAQ from this group.
  >> They died.
 >
 >Can I assume that this is not true of Tuor, who was "counted among the
 >Eldar"?

Yes, you may.

--
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AC wrote:
 > HAL <hal.RemoveThis@hal.com> wrote:
  > > I believe I read somewhere that Tolkien once said a mortal who was
  > > permitted to live to Valanor (Undying Land) would live their normal
  > > lifespan and eventually die there e.g. BILBO, FRODO, SAM, and GIMLI. Does
  > > anyone know if this is true statement and when did Tolkien say it?
 >...
 > In the latter stages in the 1960s, JRRT revisited the issue, coming up with
 > some frightening prospects, like a Man's body not dying, even though his
 > spirit departing Arda.

Would this be the case of Ar-Pharazôn?

Akallabêt: " But Ar-Pharazôn the king and the mortal warriors that had
set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there
it is said that they lie imprisioned in the Caves of the Forgotten,
until the Last Battle an the Day of Doom."

At least they were not granted this by any grace, but they are alive
until the end. What side would they fight in the Last Battle? Would
they have still choice or will be only an undeath corpse?... and what
would be the state of Turin? (is he alive or how he will fight in the
last battle?


ssmmbfcs<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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The "Last Battle" is not "canonical" as it were. Nonetheless one must
assume that everyone has a chance at true redemption, since Sauron and
Morgoth were given such chances.
 >> Stay informed about: DID THE MORTALS BILBO, FRODO, SAM, GIMLI DIE IN THE UNDYIN.. 

Christopher Kreuzer DQd6e.9084$G8.4130@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk
creatively typed:
 > "Ancalagon The Black" <ancalagon.the.black DeleteThis @virgin.net> wrote:
  >> HAL wrote:
   >>>
   >>>> I believe I read somewhere that Tolkien once said a mortal who was
   >>>> permitted to live to Valanor (Undying Land) would live their
   >>>> normal lifespan and eventually die there e.g. BILBO, FRODO, SAM,
   >>>> and GIMLI. Does anyone know if this is true statement and when did
   >>>> Tolkien say it?
 >
  >> Can I assume that this is not true of Tuor, who was "counted among
  >> the Eldar"?
<snip>
 > In the Athrabeth, Finrod tells Andreth that Aegnor did not want to
 > see her grow old and die, so why didn't they just try and get
 > Andreth to "do a Tuor" and become Elvish? Apart from the fact that

Heh. "Do a Tuor". <g> Who was it who called him 'Tuor the Lucky
Bastard' not long ago?

 > We see this race-love opposition most clearly in the description of
 > the choices made by Elwing and Earendil:
<snip>
 > And also in Arwen's choice:
 > "I will cleave to you, Dunadan, and turn from the Twilight. Yet there
 > lies the land of my people and the long home of all my kin."
 > (Appendix A, LotR)

Lovely quote(s). And you're right, love can't be permitted to conquer
all, at least not very often. It's another aspect of the balance
between fate and free will, I think: love can't change the Fate of the
Eruhini, or it wouldn't be Fate. Yet there must be an occasional
exception, or Fate is everything, leaving no room for Free Will. And
love does conquer sometimes, even in 'the real world': Edith chose her
Ronald, after all.

 > Returning to the case of Andreth and Aegnor, it seems that love was
 > not enough to overcome the particular circumstances (war and maybe
 > also the Doom of the Noldor), but the final words of Finrod to
 > Andreth are strange, because while they emphasize the fundamental
 > difference between Men and Elves, they also hint of ultimate hope:

This is really the only glimpse we get of what /estel/ might truly
mean, isn't it? The hope that Eru must have happiness planned for his
Children, at the end.

 > "But you are not for Arda. Whither you go may you find light. Await
 > us there, my brother - and me." (Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth)

No fair, she can't have both of them! *I* want Finrod! He's the
coolest Elf of them all.

Ciaran S.
--
14th Silm. chapter: 'Of the Beginning of the End of
the Middle of Days: The Day Before Days'<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Quoth Ancalagon The Black <ancalagon.the.black.DeleteThis@virgin.net> in article
<1113153940_523.DeleteThis@exe-east.n>:
[Someone wrote:]
   > >> I believe I read somewhere that Tolkien once said a mortal who
   > >> was permitted to live to Valanor (Undying Land) would live their
   > >> normal lifespan and eventually die there...

 > Can I assume that this is not true of Tuor, who was "counted among
 > the Eldar"?

Tuor's situation is, to me, one of the real puzzles of the whole
Elf-Man fate thing. As far as I know, he's the unique example of a
person with no Elvish blood being granted an Elvish fate. And in
fact, in almost every other case, even a single drop of human blood is
enough to give someone the "Gift of Men" (the part-Elvish line of Dol
Amroth never showed signs of immortality, as far as we know).

The only known exceptions to that rule were Earendil and Elwing and
their immediate descendants, and that was only granted by special
grace of the Valar meeting in full council, as I recall. Moreover,
while the choice of Elros appeared to be binding on all of his
descendants, the choice of Elrond was not: his children were _still_
given the option of accepting the Gift of Men. (It's never stated
anywhere, but I halfway wonder whether Elrond's grandchildren would
have also been guaranteed the option even if his children had chosen
to be Elves.)

At any rate, Tuor _does_ seem to have shifted the other way. It's
hard to imagine that happening without another full conclave of the
Valar choosing to grant him the opportunity, and it's at least a bit
difficult to figure out what their justification would have been
(perhaps the usual "don't sunder him from his wife for all time beyond
the circles of the world" business). But Tolkien made it pretty clear
that that's what happened. (I guarantee, though, that it wasn't just
a matter of him showing up in the Undying Lands and not dying as a
result.)
    Steuard Jensen<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"ssmmbfcs" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
 >Akallabêt: " But Ar-Pharazôn the king and the mortal warriors that had
 >set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there
 >it is said that they lie imprisioned in the Caves of the Forgotten,
 >until the Last Battle an the Day of Doom."
 >
 >At least they were not granted this by any grace, but they are alive
 >until the end.

It says they're imprisoned; it doesn't say they're alive.

Now granted, if they're dead then "entombed" might be a better
choice of words. Maybe they're in some sort of suspended animation
so that they can fight on the right side in the Last Battle and
redeem their sacrilee in attacking Valinor.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://OakRoadSystems.com" target="_blank">http://OakRoadSystems.com</a>
Tolkien FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://Tolkien.slimy.com" target="_blank">http://Tolkien.slimy.com</a> (Steuard Jensen's site)
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Shanahan <poguesDEL.TakeThisOut@ITbluefrog.com> wrote:
 > Christopher Kreuzer DQd6e.9084$G8.4130@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk
 > creatively typed:
  >> "Ancalagon The Black" <ancalagon.the.black.TakeThisOut@virgin.net> wrote:
   >>> HAL wrote:
   >>>>
   >>>>> I believe I read somewhere that Tolkien once said a mortal who was
   >>>>> permitted to live to Valanor (Undying Land) would live their
   >>>>> normal lifespan and eventually die there e.g. BILBO, FRODO, SAM,
   >>>>> and GIMLI. Does anyone know if this is true statement and when did
   >>>>> Tolkien say it?
  >>
   >>> Can I assume that this is not true of Tuor, who was "counted among
   >>> the Eldar"?
 > <snip>
  >> In the Athrabeth, Finrod tells Andreth that Aegnor did not want to
  >> see her grow old and die, so why didn't they just try and get
  >> Andreth to "do a Tuor" and become Elvish? Apart from the fact that
 >
 > Heh. "Do a Tuor". <g> Who was it who called him 'Tuor the Lucky
 > Bastard' not long ago?

Google is your friend... [1]

Please step forward, Damien R. Sullivan!

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/8eac6edb0ffa9063" target="_blank">http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/8eac6edb0ffa9063</a>

[1] Oops! I always said I would never, ever, utter such a cliché!

<snip>

  >> Returning to the case of Andreth and Aegnor, it seems that love was
  >> not enough to overcome the particular circumstances (war and maybe
  >> also the Doom of the Noldor), but the final words of Finrod to
  >> Andreth are strange, because while they emphasize the fundamental
  >> difference between Men and Elves, they also hint of ultimate hope:
 >
 > This is really the only glimpse we get of what /estel/ might truly
 > mean, isn't it? The hope that Eru must have happiness planned for his
 > Children, at the end.
 >
  >> "But you are not for Arda. Whither you go may you find light. Await
  >> us there, my brother - and me." (Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth)
 >
 > No fair, she can't have both of them! *I* want Finrod! He's the
 > coolest Elf of them all.

LOL!

BTW, am I the only one to read something into Finrod's final words?
Maybe a slight suggestion that he too (secretly) loves Andreth? Or is he
just including himself as an example of an Elf that will, in the end, be
able to meet again with Men, such as Andreth and Beren (see quote
below), despite the countless examples where Elves and Men are said to
be sundered forever "beyond the end of the world"?

"Then would our paths be sundered forever..." (Elwing leaping into the
white foam to be with Earendil)

"...a parting beyond the end of the world had come between them..."
(Melian and Luthien's parting)

"...they were sundered by the Sea and by a doom beyond the end of the
world." (Elrond and Arwen's parting)

"...it may be that we shall not meet a second time in death or life, for
the fates of our kindreds are apart." (Finrod to Beren)

The only thing to compare with Finrod's final words to Andreth, that
glimmer of estel, is the suggestions that Men and Elves will join in the
Second Music of the Ainur:

"Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it
has been said that a greater still shall be made before Iluvatar by the
choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the end of days."
(Ainulindale)

Though this is less certain here:

"Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall
join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Iluvatar has not revealed
what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not
discovered it." (Of the Beginning of Days)

Is there any contradiction between these quotes?

Christopher

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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
 > "Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it
 > has been said that a greater still shall be made before Iluvatar by the
 > choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the end of days."
 > (Ainulindale)
 >
 > Though this is less certain here:
 >
 > "Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall
 > join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Iluvatar has not revealed
 > what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not
 > discovered it." (Of the Beginning of Days)
 >
 > Is there any contradiction between these quotes?

Yes... but there is always he possibility to tell that both texts (A &
QS) came from different sources. Then, it was revealed to Rúmil, or
Rúmil wanted to understand, that elves were going to join the second
music. But the compiler of the QS did not receive the same
information or did not get an straight answer when he asked. And
Bilbo did not asked about the contradictions when he was compiling the
books of lore.

But coming back to Profesor Tolkien, even LotR has after his revisions
things to fix (supposedly fixed for the 50th anniversary edition). If
we go to the discussiion about Morgoth's lose of his shapeshifting
ability, we could find that it was not as terminal as is said in
publised Silmarillion becasue it is still present the fact that, after
his returning to Angband, he left in secret at least once his fortress
It would seem that, by CT, it was left the possibility that he
visited humans on their awakening (either only in hideous form or clad
in majesty?, and of course, would it be possible that from human point
of view both things are the same?).

I have alway prefered to consider that several texts come from
different sources, so they do not need to match perfectly and
contradictions are just differences of knowledge. But due to the
Athrabeth and your previous quotes of sundering, I would incline for
the fact that elves really do not know what will come of them after
the end of time (= the end of the circles of the world) because their
spirit is fused with arda it self... so at least in the end their
spirit would have a different sundering that the spirit of men that
are made to depart... Finrod said that both humans and elves die but
teh difference is that humans at least know what will be of them after
but elves do not (just a, elvish point of view).

And maybe, just maybe, the second music is really the way (leaving
aside good actions in life) in which humans are going to heal Arda.
But then it would seem a little pontless their freedom of the fate of
the music of the ainur in life (which elves do not have, and that
would seem to me was the only reason to put that in the end even the
ainur will envy).


Just thinking,
ssmmbfcs<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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