The Magician's Nephew Spoilers

stremler DeleteThis @rohan.sdsu.edu wrote:

> In rec.arts.sf.written Otto York <gopher31 DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
> > On Mar 18, 4:04 am, strem... DeleteThis @rohan.sdsu.edu wrote:
> [chop]
> >> I do not believe that we've ever seen Aslan morph into an inanimate
> >> object (discounting that of a dead lion).
> >
> > You "do not believe we've ever seen Aslan morph into an inanimate
> > object."
>
> Erm. You just quoted me... why quote (nearly) the whole sentence again?
>
> > Are you questioning Aslan's ability to morph into anything
> > he wants to? If so, you are assuming Aslan's magical powers are
> > inferior to those of the White Witch.
>
> No. "Can" is not "Would".
>
> I'm assuming that both Aslan's power and his personality is *different*
> from the White Witch.
>
> We *know* that Aslan is constrained in his actions, even though he
> isn't a /tame/ lion. (He gets positively irate about the idea of
> going against the Emperor's magic, for example.)
>
> > In an earlier scene, before
> > Aslan's death and resurrection, Aslan and his army attack the White
> > Witch and her horde. The witch escapes by morphing into an inanimate
> > object, a "fair-sized boulder." At the same time, she transforms her
> > dwarf into a tree stump, another inanimate object.
>
> That seemed to be more of an illusion -- a seeming, not an actual
> transformation.
>
> Still, six of one, half-dozen of the other.
>
> > And still earlier
> > she uses her wand to transform all sorts of creatures who have
> > offended her into stone statues, additional inanimate objects.
>
> Yup. And Aslan *undid* her magic. Her magic was of cold and death
> and stillness; Aslan's magic is of warmth and life and movement.
>
> > So
> > why can't Aslan, whose powers exceed those of the witch, transform
> > himself into an inanimate object, a lamppost?
>
> That's not the appropriate question. Why would he do such a thing?
> *Would* he do such a thing, based on what we know of his character in
> the book?
>
> > You also say the lamppost was already in Narnia at the beginning of
> > the story. But at the beginning of the story Aslan has just returned
> > to Narnia.
>
> Um, no, I don't get that at all. On p64 (Collier paperback) Beaver says
> "They say Aslan is on the move -- perhaps has already landed." This is
> some considerable time after Lucy first encountered the lamppost, so
> the uncertainty would imply that Aslan was *not* on the move when Lucy
> first appeared, much less 'landed'.

If Aslan were a lamppost, he certainly wouldn't be on the move, since he would
be standing still!

> > Like the Professor, he has a way of knowing unknowable
> > things.
>
> The professor presumably uses logic, and has the ability to listen.
>
> > He knows, seemingly without having been told, that the four
> > children have just arrived in Narnia. Why, then, can't he have
> > anticipated their arrival (and Lucy's earlier visit) by positioning
> > himself as a lamppost at the entrance to Narnia at the story's
> > beginning? I see no reason why he couldn't have morphed into a
> > lamppost more than once.
>
> When Lucy first meets the Faun, we learn that the lamppost defines a
> boundary of Narnia:
>
> "Narnia? What's that?" said Lucy.
> "This is the land of Narnia," said the Faun, "where we are now; all
> that lies between the lamp-post and the great castle of Cair Paravel
> on the eastern sea. And you--you have come from the wild woods of
> the west?"
>
> It is not something that is likely to be appearing and vanishing as
> Aslan comes and goes. Consequently, if we believe that the lamppost
> (or lamp-post) is to be Aslan, then we must further postulate that
> Aslan can be in two places at once -- in which case, there is no need
> for Aslan to _morph_ into the lamppost, as he's already there.

Why couldn't Aslan be in two places at once? After all, isn't Jesus everywhere?
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Otto York wrote:

> On Mar 18, 5:55 pm, strem....TakeThisOut@rohan.sdsu.edu wrote:
>
> > > Context is one of the keys to the doors of symbolism. The general
> > > context is a story that is full of Christian symbolism. We therefore
> > > look for symbols.
>
> > And if they don't fit, we should force 'em in anyway?
>
> Now we get to the root of your problem: inability to recognize
> symbolic analogies. Most symbols rest on analogies between the symbol
> and what it symbolizes. You can't see the analogy between four people
> on horseback and the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, given that the
> four people appear in the context of a story that's full of symbols
> and allusions to Christianity.
>
> Let's go back to the scene where the witch slays Aslan, who represents
> Jesus. Before the real Jesus was crucified, a crown of thorns was
> placed on his head. A crown of thorns is irritating. Did the White
> Witch place anything irritating on Aslan's head--something analogous
> to the crown of thorns--before she killed him? If you can't recognize
> such symbolic analogies for what they are, you obviously are never
> going to believe that Aslan morphed into a white stag and then a
> lamppost.

She had him bound tightly with rope, and had him shaved.
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In rec.arts.sf.written Otto York <gopher31.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Mar 18, 4:04 am, strem....TakeThisOut@rohan.sdsu.edu wrote:
[chop]
>> I do not believe that we've ever seen Aslan morph into an inanimate
>> object (discounting that of a dead lion).
>
> You "do not believe we've ever seen Aslan morph into an inanimate
> object."

Erm. You just quoted me... why quote (nearly) the whole sentence again?

> Are you questioning Aslan's ability to morph into anything
> he wants to? If so, you are assuming Aslan's magical powers are
> inferior to those of the White Witch.

No. "Can" is not "Would".

I'm assuming that both Aslan's power and his personality is *different*
from the White Witch.

We *know* that Aslan is constrained in his actions, even though he
isn't a /tame/ lion. (He gets positively irate about the idea of
going against the Emperor's magic, for example.)

> In an earlier scene, before
> Aslan's death and resurrection, Aslan and his army attack the White
> Witch and her horde. The witch escapes by morphing into an inanimate
> object, a "fair-sized boulder." At the same time, she transforms her
> dwarf into a tree stump, another inanimate object.

That seemed to be more of an illusion -- a seeming, not an actual
transformation.

Still, six of one, half-dozen of the other.

> And still earlier
> she uses her wand to transform all sorts of creatures who have
> offended her into stone statues, additional inanimate objects.

Yup. And Aslan *undid* her magic. Her magic was of cold and death
and stillness; Aslan's magic is of warmth and life and movement.

> So
> why can't Aslan, whose powers exceed those of the witch, transform
> himself into an inanimate object, a lamppost?

That's not the appropriate question. Why would he do such a thing?
*Would* he do such a thing, based on what we know of his character in
the book?

> You also say the lamppost was already in Narnia at the beginning of
> the story. But at the beginning of the story Aslan has just returned
> to Narnia.

Um, no, I don't get that at all. On p64 (Collier paperback) Beaver says
"They say Aslan is on the move -- perhaps has already landed." This is
some considerable time after Lucy first encountered the lamppost, so
the uncertainty would imply that Aslan was *not* on the move when Lucy
first appeared, much less 'landed'.

> Like the Professor, he has a way of knowing unknowable
> things.

The professor presumably uses logic, and has the ability to listen.

> He knows, seemingly without having been told, that the four
> children have just arrived in Narnia. Why, then, can't he have
> anticipated their arrival (and Lucy's earlier visit) by positioning
> himself as a lamppost at the entrance to Narnia at the story's
> beginning? I see no reason why he couldn't have morphed into a
> lamppost more than once.

When Lucy first meets the Faun, we learn that the lamppost defines a
boundary of Narnia:

"Narnia? What's that?" said Lucy.
"This is the land of Narnia," said the Faun, "where we are now; all
that lies between the lamp-post and the great castle of Cair Paravel
on the eastern sea. And you--you have come from the wild woods of
the west?"

It is not something that is likely to be appearing and vanishing as
Aslan comes and goes. Consequently, if we believe that the lamppost
(or lamp-post) is to be Aslan, then we must further postulate that
Aslan can be in two places at once -- in which case, there is no need
for Aslan to _morph_ into the lamppost, as he's already there.

Of course, we now need to explain how, if he can be in so many
places at once, why he chose *not* to remain in Narnia in a visible
form, but did choose to remain as an inanimate object.

This path leads to a massive breakdown of disbelief; or perhaps it
might inspire someone to write an analysis as to why the White Witch
was on the side of Good and Aslan was not...

> Context is one of the keys to the doors of symbolism. The general
> context is a story that is full of Christian symbolism. We therefore
> look for symbols.

And if they don't fit, we should force 'em in anyway?

Doesn't that get in the way of The Story?

> The specific end-of-story context is symbolization
> of Revelation's end-of-earthly-kingdoms apocalyptic events. The four
> siblings, now adults, mounted on horseback as symbols of the Four
> Horsemen of the Apocalypse is one of the most blatant symbols in
> Lewis's story. That is your clue that other symbols relating to
> Revelation and the apocalypse may also be present.

That's thin. That's very, very thin. I can't swallow that at all; one
might as well point at _Silverado_ as a movie full of Christian
symbolism--because it has four horsemen (and who actually do ride
forth), too.

For blantant symbolism, I'd have to go with the sacrifice on the Stone
Table and the Deeper Magic from Before the Dawn of Time. Beside that,
the Four Horsemen reference is pretty darn obscure.

> Revelation presents Jesus in three guises, two of them metaphorical.
> Jesus is the metaphorical Lamb [a lamb is an animal child] of God, a
> poetic way of saying Son of God.

Lambs were sacrificed. "Poetic way of saying Son of God" seems to miss
the important point of it being a _lamb_. Jesus was a sacrifice, as
that's how he can 'take away the sins of the world'.

> Later Jesus is the metaphorical lamp
> in New Jerusalem. Aslan represents Jesus. We all know this.
> Logically, then, he should also represent the white Lamb of God (the
> white stag) and the light (lamppost) in New Jerusalem.

Um. Except that it makes no sense that Aslan should be a lamppost, as
it introduces all sorts of other complications. The white hart, maybe;
although I'd probably think of it as its own (magical) creature doing
Aslan a favor (or, more likely, returning one).

> Just to flesh out the contextual sequence, Revelation forecasts the
> end of earthly kingdoms and their replacement by the Kingdom of God on
> earth (no longer in heaven). The four siblings have been kings and
> queens of Narnia. When they depart, the era of kings and queens comes
> to an end, just as it does in Revelation. The symbolism is there for
> you to interpret. To me, at least, it is crystal clear.

And it doesn't work at all for me.

You end a fairy-tale by bringing back the protagonists to the "Real
World"; the fact that they're on horseback is a natural consequence
of the story -- you don't chase a hart on foot -- and they need to
get back to the lamppost because that's the way out.

Now, it may be that the lamp was wedged in as some sort of symbolism,
but (to me) that just ruins a bit of the story. But I'm obviously
not a fan of heavy symbolism, and you are, so I imagine we're not
going to stand a chance of convincing the other.

--
------------------------stremler.TakeThisOut@rohan.sdsu.edu----------------------------
I _knew_ that sheet of teeny-tiny labels would come in handy.
-- Mike Andrews (July 2001)
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On Mar 18, 11:51 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru....DeleteThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
wrote:
> Otto York wrote:
> > On Mar 18, 5:55 pm, strem....DeleteThis@rohan.sdsu.edu wrote:
>
> > > > Context is one of the keys to the doors of symbolism. The general
> > > > context is a story that is full of Christian symbolism. We therefore
> > > > look for symbols.
>
> > > And if they don't fit, we should force 'em in anyway?
>
> > Now we get to the root of your problem: inability to recognize
> > symbolic analogies. Most symbols rest on analogies between the symbol
> > and what it symbolizes. You can't see the analogy between four people
> > on horseback and the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, given that the
> > four people appear in the context of a story that's full of symbols
> > and allusions to Christianity.
>
> > Let's go back to the scene where the witch slays Aslan, who represents
> > Jesus. Before the real Jesus was crucified, a crown of thorns was
> > placed on his head. A crown of thorns is irritating. Did the White
> > Witch place anything irritating on Aslan's head--something analogous
> > to the crown of thorns--before she killed him? If you can't recognize
> > such symbolic analogies for what they are, you obviously are never
> > going to believe that Aslan morphed into a white stag and then a
> > lamppost.
>
> She had him bound tightly with rope, and had him shaved.

Actually, it is the muzzle that the witch places on Aslan's head that
symbolizes the crown of thorns placed on Jesus's head. When Aslan is
shaved (his fur is his equivalent of clothing), this act represents
what happened when the Roman soldiers "stripped him [Jesus] of the
purple cloak" (Mark: 15:20) when they crucified him. The rope that
binds Aslan is the nails that bound Jesus to the cross.
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On Mar 18, 11:47 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru... RemoveThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
wrote:
> Otto York wrote:
> > On Mar 18, 4:04 am, strem... RemoveThis @rohan.sdsu.edu wrote:
> > > In rec.arts.sf.written Otto York <gophe... RemoveThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > [snip]
>
> > > > You don't see the morphing. You have to deduce it. You sound
> > > > intelligent. I am sure you are capable of deducing things from
> > > > evidence. The four siblings follow the white stag, who is Aslan
> > > > (another deduction). They lose sight of the stag. But they soon see
> > > > the lamppost. You have to deduce that the white stag (Aslan in
> > > > another guise) has morphed into the lamppost, just as he earlier
> > > > morphed into the white stag.
>
> > > Um...
>
> > > The lamppost was there, in Narnia, at the start of the book. If Aslan
> > > morphs into the lamppost, then he must have morphed /from/ the lamppost
> > > (as there's only one that we know if in the book) at the start, which
> > > makes the whole Aslan-is-away-but-is-coming-back bit kinda silly.
>
> > > So either Lewis was consistent, and we can deduce that Aslan is not
> > > the lamppost, or Lewis was inconsistent, and we then have no grounds
> > > (in the story) for deducing that Aslan is a lamppost.
>
> > > The simplest and most reasonable explanation is that Aslan led (or
> > > caused the stag to lead) 'em to the lamppost. Anything beyond that
> > > is stretching mighty hard.
>
> > > [snip]
>
> > > > If you doubt that Aslan can morph into a lamb, read the Voyage of the
> > > > Dawn Treader. There Aslan appears as a lamb, then visibly morphs into
> > > > a lion.
>
> > > Citing other books would seem to be a bad precedent for your argument,
> > > as we can then point to _The Magician's Nephew_ and say "aha! The lamp
> > > was only an accident at the beginning of the world, and if it symbolizes
> > > anything, it symbolizes the first effect of our symbolic satan upon the
> > > world!"....
>
> > > I do not believe that we've ever seen Aslan morph into an inanimate
> > > object (discounting that of a dead lion).
>
> > You "do not believe we've ever seen Aslan morph into an inanimate
> > object." Are you questioning Aslan's ability to morph into anything
> > he wants to? If so, you are assuming Aslan's magical powers are
> > inferior to those of the White Witch. In an earlier scene, before
> > Aslan's death and resurrection, Aslan and his army attack the White
> > Witch and her horde. The witch escapes by morphing into an inanimate
> > object, a "fair-sized boulder." At the same time, she transforms her
> > dwarf into a tree stump, another inanimate object. And still earlier
> > she uses her wand to transform all sorts of creatures who have
> > offended her into stone statues, additional inanimate objects. So
> > why can't Aslan, whose powers exceed those of the witch, transform
> > himself into an inanimate object, a lamppost?
>
> > You also say the lamppost was already in Narnia at the beginning of
> > the story. But at the beginning of the story Aslan has just returned
> > to Narnia. Like the Professor, he has a way of knowing unknowable
> > things. He knows, seemingly without having been told, that the four
> > children have just arrived in Narnia. Why, then, can't he have
> > anticipated their arrival (and Lucy's earlier visit) by positioning
> > himself as a lamppost at the entrance to Narnia at the story's
> > beginning? I see no reason why he couldn't have morphed into a
> > lamppost more than once.
>
> > Context is one of the keys to the doors of symbolism. The general
> > context is a story that is full of Christian symbolism. We therefore
> > look for symbols. The specific end-of-story context is symbolization
> > of Revelation's end-of-earthly-kingdoms apocalyptic events. The four
> > siblings, now adults, mounted on horseback as symbols of the Four
> > Horsemen of the Apocalypse is one of the most blatant symbols in
> > Lewis's story. That is your clue that other symbols relating to
> > Revelation and the apocalypse may also be present.
>
> How can the siblings be the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse? They did not
> massacre anyone as they departed Narnia.

Symbols are usually based on analogy. Things are analogous when they
are similar in one or more respects. Similar, not identical. Just
one analogy is sufficient to establish similarity. In the Four
Horsemen symbolism, we have not just one similarity but two. One
similarity is the number four, four horseback riders symbolizing the
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. The other similarity is that the
four siblings are riding horses.
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In article <1174098180.340891.140160.DeleteThis@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Otto York writes:
>"Lots42" <lot....DeleteThis@gmail.com> writes:

>> > At this point, there was so much magic, that anything planted would
>> > grow and stay. That's why the lamp-post was there in Book 1, cuz in
>> > this book, the Queen grabbed a bit from a lamp-post in England before
>> > ending up in Narnia.

>>The lamppost was there in book 1, because Lewis figured it was a
>>quaint and fairy taleish thing to have out there.
>
>That's not why the lamppost was there at the end of book 1, The Lion,
>the Witch and the Wardrobe.

Why was the lamppost there at the beginning of _The Lion, the Witch, and
the Wardrobe_?

> Lewis was symbolizing events from the
>Bible's book of Revelation.

CSL did the Book of Revelations in _The Last Battle_. _The Lion, the Witch,
and the Wardrobe_ was the Gospels.

> Revelation is about the future apocalypse
>(the horrifying destruction of earthly kingdoms and much of humanity)
>and the transfer from heaven to earth of the Kingdom of God.

All covered in _The Last Battle_, yes.

> The
>apocalypse will begin with the appearance of the Four Horsemen of the
>Apocalypse (Rev. 6:1-7). The four siblings who go out on horseback to
>hunt for the white stag symbolize Revelation's Four Horsemen of the
>Apocalypse.

The way that they brought death, suffering, and the general end of the
world with their passing? Well, no, because Narnia went on for about
a thousand years after they left. Right up until the apocalyptic events
portrayed in _The Last Battle_.

>The Lamb of God, implicitly white (lambs are white, you know), is
>featured throughout Revelation. Aslan, who has returned and
>transformed himself into the white stag,

There is zero evidence that Aslan transformed himself into the stag. It
is quite likely that either Aslan or the Emporer Over the Sea inspired
the Kings ansd Queens to follow the stag, because their story was over
and it was time for them to go home.

> represents the Lamb of God.

Aslan doesn't *represent* "The Lamb of God". In Narnian theology, he
*is* "The Lamb of God".

>At the end of Revelation, after the earthly kingdoms have been
>destroyed

... exactly like did not happen at the end of _The Lion, the Witch, and
the Wardrobe_, but did happen several centuries later in _The Last Battle_.

>The Lamppost in Narnia is the lamp in New Jerusalem. Since the "lamp
>is the Lamb," we know that Aslan has now morphed from the white stag
>(Lamb symbol) into the lamppost.

Not necessarily every word in the Bible has a parallel to something in
_The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe_. In fact, not every word in
the Bible is covered in the entire Narnia series. Just because something
was stated in the Bible doesn't show that Lewis put it into Narnia.

Since not everything is required to have parallels between the two, and
the lamppost was there at the beginning, there's no reasonable way to
support the concept that Aslan was the lamppost. Not much more to support
the concept that he was the stag.


> When the siblings go past the
>lamppost and enter the Professor's house, they are entering the
>Kingdom of God.

No, they're going back to England.

> Who do you suppose the Professor (a.k.a. Emperor-
>beyond-the-Sea),

Known as that to you, and to nobody else.

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
91.2% of all statistics are made up by the person quoting them.
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In article <1174142830.209802.39610.RemoveThis@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Otto York writes:
>On Mar 17, 2:30 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru....RemoveThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>> Otto York wrote:
>> > "Lots42" <lot....RemoveThis@gmail.com> writes:

>> > Apocalypse (Rev. 6:1-7). The four siblings who go out on horseback to
>> > hunt for the white stag symbolize Revelation's Four Horsemen of the
>> > Apocalypse.
>>
>> How? They have no intention of destroying anything, and Narnia wasn't
>> destroyed for several hundred years after the siblings left?

>> > The Lamppost in Narnia is the lamp in New Jerusalem.

>> How can Aslan be the lamppost? In The Magician's Nephew, Jadis threw a
>> piece of lamppost at Aslan, and it sprouted into the lamppost, with Aslan
>> standing right beside it.
>
>There are many contradictions between the first Narnia book, "The
>Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe"(1950), and the six later books. For
>example, the Professor of the original book does not have a name

There is a difference between "does not have a name" and "we never
happen to hear what is name is". By glossing over this difference,
you are attempting to create mystery and contradiction where none
exists.

> and
>does not closely fit the description of Digory Kirke, who in "The
>Magician's Nephew"

In what ways (besides age, maturity levels, and education) do the
professor of _The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe_ differ from
Diggory Kirke of _The Magician's Nephew_?

> Again,
>the apocalypse symbolized at the end of "The Lion, the Witch and the
>Wardrobe"

What apocalypse at the end of _The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe_?
There isn't one. This is where your whole thesis about the Four
Horsemen and the lamppost falls flat on its face.

> is restyled in more, and different, detail in the last
>Narnia book,"The Last Battle"

"Different detail" in the sense that the latter has an apocalypse, while
the former doesn't.

> Susan is no longer admitted to
>the Kingdom of God.

We don't know what happens to Susan. If she is someday admitted, it
won't be through Narnia. We'll never know, because that's somebody
else's story.

>This is why Aslan can morph into the lamppost

He can, sure. There's zero evidence to support any contention that
he did, though.

> Make no mistake, in
>Revelation 21: the "lamp is the Lamb." (Here the "lamp" is merely a
>metaphorical one, not a literal one.)

No kidding! Well, how about that! Whoda thunk it?

> And the Lamb is Jesus: "the
>Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb"

Yeah, we know that.

> Since Aslan symbolizes Jesus--just
>about everybody knows this

No dispute there.

> Aslan is both the Lamb (the white stag)

Zero support for any contention that the Lamb is the white stag.

>and the lamppost.

Half as much support for any contention that Aslan is the lamppost.

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.
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On Mar 19, 1:57 pm, mstem....TakeThisOut@siemens-emis.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
> In article <1174098180.340891.140....TakeThisOut@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Otto York writes:
> >"Lots42" <lot....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> writes:

> >That's not why the lamppost was there at the end of book 1, The Lion,
> >the Witch and the Wardrobe.
>
> Why was the lamppost there at the beginning of _The Lion, the Witch, and
> the Wardrobe_?

Presumably, Lewis was trying to coordinate the beginning and the end
by using the lamppost as a marker of the rear entrance to the
wardrobe. Aslan was back in Narnia, knew about the children, and for
illogical reasons (C. S. Lewis was not a master of logic) decided to
put himself there.

> > Lewis was symbolizing events from the
> >Bible's book of Revelation.
>
> CSL did the Book of Revelations in _The Last Battle_. _The Lion, the Witch,
> and the Wardrobe_ was the Gospels.

CSL did Revelation in both books. The treatment in The Lion, the
Witch and the Wardrobe was quick and superficial. In Last Battle, CSL
decided to do it all over again in more detail. The first book is not
confined to the gospels. It has all sorts of Christian symbolism from
a variety of sources. You will not find anything about "the
harrowing of hell" in the gospels, but we see it symbolized in The
Lion when Aslan (Jesus) goes to the witch's castle (hell) and rescues
the stone statues (those inmates of hell who deserve a better fate).
Mr. Beaver's hiding hold is a church, a place of refuge from Satan.
There are no churches in the gospels. And, of course, the Four
Horsemen of the Apocalypse are from Revelation, not the gospels.
>
> > Revelation is about the future apocalypse
> >(the horrifying destruction of earthly kingdoms and much of humanity)
> >and the transfer from heaven to earth of the Kingdom of God.
>
> All covered in _The Last Battle_, yes.

But covered earlier in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

> > The
> >apocalypse will begin with the appearance of the Four Horsemen of the
> >Apocalypse (Rev. 6:1-7). The four siblings who go out on horseback to
> >hunt for the white stag symbolize Revelation's Four Horsemen of the
> >Apocalypse.
>
> The way that they brought death, suffering, and the general end of the
> world with their passing? Well, no, because Narnia went on for about
> a thousand years after they left. Right up until the apocalyptic events
> portrayed in _The Last Battle_.

As I pointed out earlier, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe was
written as what Ryken and Mead call a "stand-alone book" that was not
meant to take into account circumstances and events in later books
that are not consistent with the first book.

> >The Lamb of God, implicitly white (lambs are white, you know), is
> >featured throughout Revelation. Aslan, who has returned and
> >transformed himself into the white stag,
>
> There is zero evidence that Aslan transformed himself into the stag. It
> is quite likely that either Aslan or the Emporer Over the Sea inspired
> the Kings ansd Queens to follow the stag, because their story was over
> and it was time for them to go home.

Zero evidence? The first evidence is context. We begin with the
general context of Christian symbolism and move on the the narrower
context of apocalyptic symbolism. The apocalyptic symbolism begins
with kings and queens (Revelation says the earthly kingdoms will
disappear, as they do in the story) and then moves on to the Four
Horsemen of the Apocalypse. The fact that Revelation identifies the
Lamb of God as Jesus, who Aslan symbolizes is more evidence. The fact
that lambs are children, just as Jesus is the Son (child) of God, is
more evidence. The fact that lambs are white, like the white stage,
is still more evidence. Observing facts like these is how one
recognizes and interprets symbols.

> Aslan doesn't *represent* "The Lamb of God". In Narnian theology, he
> *is* "The Lamb of God".

When I say Aslan represents the Lamb of God I am speaking of the CSL
story, not "Narnian theology." But since you recognize that Aslan is
the Lamb of God (in a later book), why do you refuse to recognize that
he represents the Lamb of God in the first book, where he adopts the
guise of the white stag. You can't claim he is explicitly the Lamb of
God in the first book, because the first book has no lamb and no
reference to "The Lamb of God."

> >At the end of Revelation, after the earthly kingdoms have been
> >destroyed

> .. exactly like did not happen at the end of _The Lion, the Witch, and
> the Wardrobe_, but did happen several centuries later in _The Last Battle_.

As I said, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe was written as a stand-
alone book and was not designed to be consistent with the later Narnia
books. In the first book, the earthly kingdoms come to an end when
the four kings and queens of Narnia (symbol of earth) depart. No
kings, no kingdoms.

> >The Lamppost in Narnia is the lamp in New Jerusalem. Since the "lamp
> >is the Lamb," we know that Aslan has now morphed from the white stag
> >(Lamb symbol) into the lamppost.
>
> Not necessarily every word in the Bible has a parallel to something in
> _The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe_.

What's this? Who ever said that every word in the Bible has a
parallel in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe? You are arguing
that, because some things in the Bible are not represented in CSL's
book, nothing in the Bible is represented. What sort of logic is
that. You are saying, then, that because not "every word in the
Bible" has a parallel in the story, there can be no parallel between
the dying and rising Aslan and the dying and rising Jesus?

In fact, not every word in
> the Bible is covered in the entire Narnia series. Just because something
> was stated in the Bible doesn't show that Lewis put it into Narnia.

See above.

> Since not everything is required to have parallels between the two, and
> the lamppost was there at the beginning, there's no reasonable way to
> support the concept that Aslan was the lamppost. Not much more to support
> the concept that he was the stag.

"No reasonable way to support the concept?" Jesus was, first, Jesus;
second, the Lamb of God; and, third, the lamb in New Jerusalem. Aslan
symbolizes Jesus. What's so unreasonable about Aslan symbolizing the
same three things, especially when the Four Horsemen symbolism tips us
off that Revelation is being symbolized.

> > When the siblings go past the
> >lamppost and enter the Professor's house, they are entering the
> >Kingdom of God.
>
> No, they're going back to England.

Only in the story, not in the allegory. England represents heaven,
and the Professor is God. He even has a white beard, as in the
standard cartoon caricature of God. Narnia represents earth, which is
where Jesus (Aslan) was crucified and resurrected. Aslan's death and
resurrection symbolize the death and resurrection on earth (symbolized
by Narnia) of Jesus. The hill on which Aslan is slain represents
Calvary, which is on earth. Narnia is earth. When the four siblings
leave earth, they go to heaven.
 >> Stay informed about: The Magician's Nephew Spoilers 

Otto York wrote:

> On Mar 19, 1:57 pm, mstem....RemoveThis@siemens-emis.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
> > In article <1174098180.340891.140....RemoveThis@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Otto York writes:
>

> > CSL did the Book of Revelations in _The Last Battle_. _The Lion, the Witch,
> > and the Wardrobe_ was the Gospels.
>
> CSL did Revelation in both books. The treatment in The Lion, the
> Witch and the Wardrobe was quick and superficial. In Last Battle, CSL
> decided to do it all over again in more detail. The first book is not
> confined to the gospels. It has all sorts of Christian symbolism from
> a variety of sources. You will not find anything about "the
> harrowing of hell" in the gospels, but we see it symbolized in The
> Lion when Aslan (Jesus) goes to the witch's castle (hell) and rescues
> the stone statues (those inmates of hell who deserve a better fate).
> Mr. Beaver's hiding hold is a church, a place of refuge from Satan.
> There are no churches in the gospels. And, of course, the Four
> Horsemen of the Apocalypse are from Revelation, not the gospels.

Mr. Beaver's home didn't look like a place of worship to me!

> > > When the siblings go past the
> > >lamppost and enter the Professor's house, they are entering the
> > >Kingdom of God.
> >
> > No, they're going back to England.
>
> Only in the story, not in the allegory. England represents heaven,
> and the Professor is God. He even has a white beard, as in the
> standard cartoon caricature of God. Narnia represents earth, which is
> where Jesus (Aslan) was crucified and resurrected. Aslan's death and
> resurrection symbolize the death and resurrection on earth (symbolized
> by Narnia) of Jesus. The hill on which Aslan is slain represents
> Calvary, which is on earth. Narnia is earth. When the four siblings
> leave earth, they go to heaven.

I got the impression that they preferred Narnia to Earth, so Earth doesn't = Heaven to the
siblings!
 >> Stay informed about: The Magician's Nephew Spoilers 

On Mar 20, 2:16 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru....RemoveThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> Otto York wrote:
> > On Mar 19, 1:57 pm, mstem....RemoveThis@siemens-emis.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
> > > In article <1174098180.340891.140....RemoveThis@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Otto York writes:
>
> > > CSL did the Book of Revelations in _The Last Battle_. _The Lion, the Witch,
> > > and the Wardrobe_ was the Gospels.
>
> > CSL did Revelation in both books. The treatment in The Lion, the
> > Witch and the Wardrobe was quick and superficial. In Last Battle, CSL
> > decided to do it all over again in more detail. The first book is not
> > confined to the gospels. It has all sorts of Christian symbolism from
> > a variety of sources. You will not find anything about "the
> > harrowing of hell" in the gospels, but we see it symbolized in The
> > Lion when Aslan (Jesus) goes to the witch's castle (hell) and rescues
> > the stone statues (those inmates of hell who deserve a better fate).
> > Mr. Beaver's hiding hold is a church, a place of refuge from Satan.
> > There are no churches in the gospels. And, of course, the Four
> > Horsemen of the Apocalypse are from Revelation, not the gospels.
>
> Mr. Beaver's home didn't look like a place of worship to me!

That's because it isn't. It's the hiding hole (in the riverbank in
the path along the river on the way to Aslan's hill) that represents a
church, a place of refuge from Satan. Do you doubt that Mr. Beaver
symbolizes a Christian minister. Ministers tell their followers about
prophecies. Mr. Beaver tells the children about the Cair Paravel
prophecy. Minister's lead their flocks to Jesus. Mr. Beaver leads
the children to Aslan, who symbolizes Jesus. Ministers have churches,
places of refuge from Satan. Mr. Beaver has his hiding hole, where he
hides his wife and the four siblings from the White Witch, who
represents Satan.

> > > > When the siblings go past the
> > > >lamppost and enter the Professor's house, they are entering the
> > > >Kingdom of God.
>
> > > No, they're going back to England.

Yes, in the visible story they are going back to England. But in the
hidden story, the allegorical story told by symbols in the visible
story, they are going to heaven. It's pretty obvious that Narnia
represents earth. Earth is where Jesus was crucified and supposedly
resurrected. Narnia is where Aslan, who is Jesus in the hidden story,
is killed and resurrected. Earth is where Jesus had a crown of thorns
placed on his head. Narnia is where Aslan (Jesus) has a muzzle (crown
of thorns symbol) placed onl his head. Earth is where Jesus died on
Calvary Hill to atone for the sins of sinners (according to Christian
theology). Narnia is where Aslan (Jesus) dies in a hill (Calvary
symbol) to atone for Edmund's (sinner symbol) sins. When the siblings
go back to the Professor's house, Christians are going to heaven in
the hidden story.

> > Only in the story, not in the allegory. England represents heaven,
> > and the Professor is God. He even has a white beard, as in the
> > standard cartoon caricature of God. Narnia represents earth, which is
> > where Jesus (Aslan) was crucified and resurrected. Aslan's death and
> > resurrection symbolize the death and resurrection on earth (symbolized
> > by Narnia) of Jesus. The hill on which Aslan is slain represents
> > Calvary, which is on earth. Narnia is earth. When the four siblings
> > leave earth, they go to heaven.
>
> I got the impression that they preferred Narnia to Earth, so Earth doesn't = >Heaven to the siblings!

Well, if they did prefer Narnia (earth) to the Professor's house
(heaven), they are a smart batch of cookies. Who in his or her right
mind would want to spend an eternity with such a self-centered,
worship-demanding egotist as God?
 >> Stay informed about: The Magician's Nephew Spoilers 

On 15-Mar-07 at 11:30pm -0800, <tsbrueni.DeleteThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

> What would happen if two people used the Deplorable Word at the same
> time?

Given that the Deplorable Word was (more or less) Lewis' metaphor for The
Bomb, the answer can only be, "The exact same thing that would happen if
the two major superpowers each simultaneously launched an all-out nuclear
strike at one another."

In other words: No Survivors.

-- _____ %%%%%%%%%% "Glenn P.," <C128UserDELETE-THIS.DeleteThis@FVI.Net> %%%%%%%%%
{~._.~} --------------------------------------------------------------
_( Y )_ "I am a sheep, telling shepherds what only a sheep can tell
(:_~*~_ them. And now I start my bleating."
(_)-(_) --LEWIS, C. S.: "Fern-Seed & Elephants".

:: Take Note Of The Spam Block On My E-Mail Address! ::
 >> Stay informed about: The Magician's Nephew Spoilers 

On 16-Mar-07 at 7:45am -0700, <goodben.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mutual Assured Destruction...

Ah, now THERE's a term of which I have been mercifully unacquainted for
approximately thirty years! BTW, it's "Mutually" not "Mutual".

I wish I'd remembered that term when I wrote my earlier reply! I'd have
included it for sure.

-- _____ %%%%%%%%%% "Glenn P.," <C128UserDELETE-THIS.TakeThisOut@FVI.Net> %%%%%%%%%
{~._.~} --------------------------------------------------------------
_( Y )_ "I am a sheep, telling shepherds what only a sheep can tell
(:_~*~_ them. And now I start my bleating."
(_)-(_) --LEWIS, C. S.: "Fern-Seed & Elephants".

:: Take Note Of The Spam Block On My E-Mail Address! ::
 >> Stay informed about: The Magician's Nephew Spoilers 

"Glenn P.," wrote:

> On 16-Mar-07 at 7:45am -0700, <goodben.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Mutual Assured Destruction...
>
> Ah, now THERE's a term of which I have been mercifully unacquainted for
> approximately thirty years! BTW, it's "Mut