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External
Since: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 10
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:07 am
Post subject: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul
Archived from groups: rec>arts>books>tolkien (more info?)
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Balrogs, Sauron and the Istari are all Maiar. Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman and
Sauron all have names and individual personalties, yet Balrogs are, well,
Balrogs. They are (were) many and took shape as fire demons or spirits. If they
had names, they are forgotten or never mentioned.
I remember a thread where the reason for the Balrogs assuming the shape of fire
demons was mentioned, but have forgotten the answer. Something to do with
adopting the shape that best fit ones personality? If so, why so many Balrogs?
Why not ice demons or dragons? There is a theory that some dragons were in fact
Maiar. Was Smaug?
Another theory is that some were Orc or Goblin Chieftains. If so, what happened
to them? They can't die totally but perhaps the fate of Saruman is a clue. Once
cloaked within human (Orc/mortal) form, they are subject to having their power
dissipated.
And lastly, where were the Nazgul after Sauron's defeat on the slope of Mount
Doom? We know Sauron was formless for quite awhile but how could the Nazgul be
in the same state of being when they are mortal and Sauron is not? And didn't
they reform before Sauron and could they communicate with him when all were
disembodied?
Enough rambling ...
Steve Servello |
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External
Since: Feb 10, 2004
Posts: 60
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:07 am
Post subject: Re: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 21 Jan 2004 00:07:58 GMT, steveseg RemoveThis @aol.com (STEVESEG) wrote:
>And lastly, where were the Nazgul after Sauron's defeat on the slope of Mount
>Doom? We know Sauron was formless for quite awhile but how could the Nazgul be
>in the same state of being when they are mortal and Sauron is not? And didn't
>they reform before Sauron and could they communicate with him when all were
>disembodied?
Many questions that can be anwered here, but one that can be...
The Nazguls' fate was tied to the fate of the One Ring. As long as it
survived, they survived (just like their master Sauron). |
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External
Since: Nov 05, 2003
Posts: 6
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:15 am
Post subject: Re: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"STEVESEG" <steveseg RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040120190758.25768.00000217@mb-m23.aol.com...
> Balrogs, Sauron and the Istari are all Maiar. Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman
and
> Sauron all have names and individual personalties, yet Balrogs are, well,
> Balrogs. They are (were) many and took shape as fire demons or spirits. If
they
> had names, they are forgotten or never mentioned.
Well, there's "Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs" ... >> Stay informed about: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul |
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External
Since: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 10
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:00 am
Post subject: Re: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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External
Since: Jan 31, 2004
Posts: 128
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:46 am
Post subject: Re: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 21 Jan 2004 00:07:58 GMT,
STEVESEG <steveseg RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
> Balrogs, Sauron and the Istari are all Maiar. Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman and
> Sauron all have names and individual personalties, yet Balrogs are, well,
> Balrogs. They are (were) many and took shape as fire demons or spirits. If they
> had names, they are forgotten or never mentioned.
Gothmog is the only Balrog that we learn the name of. I'm sure we're seeing
a Nazgul-ism here, where only the chief was given any name or title.
>
> I remember a thread where the reason for the Balrogs assuming the shape of fire
> demons was mentioned, but have forgotten the answer. Something to do with
> adopting the shape that best fit ones personality? If so, why so many Balrogs?
> Why not ice demons or dragons? There is a theory that some dragons were in fact
> Maiar. Was Smaug?
They were spirits of fire. Another spirit of fire was Arien, who guided the
Sun.
>
> Another theory is that some were Orc or Goblin Chieftains. If so, what happened
> to them? They can't die totally but perhaps the fate of Saruman is a clue. Once
> cloaked within human (Orc/mortal) form, they are subject to having their power
> dissipated.
Tolkien said that some of the Orcs of legend may very well have been Umaiar
in Orcish form. I think the ability to reform a physical body greatly
depended upon native power and how much had been used or dissipated. Sauron
was able, twice, to fashion himself a new physical form, while Morgoth, once
he had put forth most of his native might, was stuck in the one he had.
>
> And lastly, where were the Nazgul after Sauron's defeat on the slope of Mount
> Doom? We know Sauron was formless for quite awhile but how could the Nazgul be
> in the same state of being when they are mortal and Sauron is not? And didn't
> they reform before Sauron and could they communicate with him when all were
> disembodied?
The Nazgul were mortal men who had been wraithified by Sauron. I'm assuming
that when the One was destroyed, they died truly and their spirits, like the
spirits of all mortal men doomed to die, departed Arda.
--
Aaron Clausen
tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @) >> Stay informed about: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul |
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Since: Mar 14, 2005
Posts: 5
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:59 am
Post subject: Re: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 10
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:59 am
Post subject: Re: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Since: Jan 30, 2004
Posts: 63
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:59 am
Post subject: Re: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <400E233E.8B968301.DeleteThis@aon.at>, Georg =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6negger?=
<g.schoenegger.DeleteThis@aon.at> wrote:
> STEVESEG schrieb:
> >
> > >Well, there's "Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs"
> >
> > True enough. Is he the exception? And why no shes?
> >
> > Steve S.
>
> but there were she-balrogs: those with wings ...
of course ive got wings
im a female >> Stay informed about: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul |
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Since: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 37
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:14 am
Post subject: Re: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Since: Jan 31, 2004
Posts: 189
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:19 am
Post subject: Re: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"AC" <mightymartianca.DeleteThis@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:slrnc0s10b.1e0.mightymartianca@namibia.tandem...
> On 21 Jan 2004 00:07:58 GMT,
> STEVESEG <steveseg.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote:
> > Balrogs, Sauron and the Istari are all Maiar. Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman and
> > Sauron all have names and individual personalties, yet Balrogs are, well,
> > Balrogs. They are (were) many and took shape as fire demons or spirits. If
they
> > had names, they are forgotten or never mentioned.
>
> Gothmog is the only Balrog that we learn the name of.
In Narn i Hin Hurin, there's also the name of the Balrog Lungorthin,
if I remember it correctly.
Aris Katsaris >> Stay informed about: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul |
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Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 134
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:32 am
Post subject: Re: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 21 Jan 2004 04:46:04 GMT, AC <mightymartianca.TakeThisOut@yahoo.ca> posted the
following:
>On 21 Jan 2004 00:07:58 GMT,
>STEVESEG <steveseg.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote:
>> Balrogs, Sauron and the Istari are all Maiar. Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman and
>> Sauron all have names and individual personalties, yet Balrogs are, well,
>> Balrogs. They are (were) many and took shape as fire demons or spirits. If they
>> had names, they are forgotten or never mentioned.
>
>Gothmog is the only Balrog that we learn the name of. I'm sure we're seeing
>a Nazgul-ism here, where only the chief was given any name or title.
How about Lungorthin "the Balrog of White Fire"? Granted that's from
1930's stuff, but it is there.
-Chris >> Stay informed about: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul |
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:26:07 +0900,
Chris Kern <chriskern99.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 21 Jan 2004 04:46:04 GMT, AC <mightymartianca.RemoveThis@yahoo.ca> posted the
> following:
>
>>On 21 Jan 2004 00:07:58 GMT,
>>STEVESEG <steveseg.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Balrogs, Sauron and the Istari are all Maiar. Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman and
>>> Sauron all have names and individual personalties, yet Balrogs are, well,
>>> Balrogs. They are (were) many and took shape as fire demons or spirits. If they
>>> had names, they are forgotten or never mentioned.
>>
>>Gothmog is the only Balrog that we learn the name of. I'm sure we're seeing
>>a Nazgul-ism here, where only the chief was given any name or title.
>
> How about Lungorthin "the Balrog of White Fire"? Granted that's from
> 1930's stuff, but it is there.
I had forgotten entirely about it.
--
Aaron Clausen
tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @) >> Stay informed about: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul |
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Posts: 29
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> From: mair_fheal RemoveThis @yahoo.com (cassandras morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des
> anges)
> Organization: eden huntersstrand
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 23:44:59 -0800
> Subject: Re: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul
>
> In article <400E233E.8B968301 RemoveThis @aon.at>, Georg =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6negger?=
> <g.schoenegger RemoveThis @aon.at> wrote:
>
>> STEVESEG schrieb:
>>>
>>>> Well, there's "Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs"
>>>
>>> True enough. Is he the exception? And why no shes?
>>>
>>> Steve S.
>>
>> but there were she-balrogs: those with wings ...
>
> of course ive got wings
> im a female
Maybe that's why balrogs are so angry... they're searching for the women
folk, like the ents.
Tim >> Stay informed about: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul |
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Chris Kern" <chriskern99.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:saas00lmqajhlm7l63ui0d423evd21k916@4ax.com...
> How about Lungorthin "the Balrog of White Fire"? Granted that's from
> 1930's stuff, but it is there.
I believe the 'Balrog of White Fire' bit is an ICEism. The name
'Lungorthin' came from Tolkien, but not the rest of it. >> Stay informed about: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul |
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