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Next: Larry Niven: Ringworld and HALO
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Since: May 28, 2004
Posts: 23
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:48 pm
Post subject: Man-Kzin Wars X
Archived from groups: alt>books>larry-niven (more info?)
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This newsgroup seems to be mostly spam and internet nonsense, but it does
seem that there is some Larry Niven discussion, so...
I just finished MAN-KZIN WARS X. Unlike the previous volumes, this one is
all by one author, Hal Colebatch. There are 4 stories set at different
times on Wunderland (Alpha Centauri).
I thought it was pretty good. I've found all the MAN-KZIN WARS volumes
entertaining, but usually quickly forgotten. By the time I find the next
one in paperback, I'm not always sure I've read the previous one.
I know some Niven fans probably argue whether they're Canon or not to Known
Space.
My problem with some of them was a little more basic; in several of the
volumes, there are stories that seem very tongue in cheek, almost inside
jokes... pastiches of Humphrey Bogart movies, CASABLANCA and THE AFRICAN
QUEEN.
Since the characters don't seem to realize they're in a metafiction, you
have to consider the weird side effects, like, since events play out in the
Man Kzin Wars that seem to basically be retellings of CASABLANCA and THE
AFRICAN QUEEN and nobody seems to notice, then, the logical deduction would
be that Humphrey Bogart movies don't exist in the Known Space universe.
(I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader how such a thing would A SOUND
OF THUNDER-ize everything. Would Indiana Jones movies exist in the Known
Space universe, with Humphrey Bogart and his movies never existing?)
I notice in October 2005 there's a MAN KZIN WARS XI coming out, this time
back to various authors.
I don't know how much approval Niven gives to these, or if he has anything
to do with them all.
I recently picked up a paperback, A DARKER GEOMETRY, by Martin and Benford,
basically an expanding of their novella in MAN-KZIN WARS VII, with
additional material. Again, not sure how "official" this is to Known
Space. Niven's name isn't even mentioned anywhere. |
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Since: Nov 08, 2004
Posts: 26
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Man-Kzin Wars X [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Algomeysa2" <Algomeysa2NOSPAM.TakeThisOut@mindspring.comNOPESPAM> wrote in message
> My problem with some of them was a little more basic; in several of
> the volumes, there are stories that seem very tongue in cheek, almost
> inside jokes... pastiches of Humphrey Bogart movies, CASABLANCA and
> THE AFRICAN QUEEN.
> Since the characters don't seem to realize they're in a metafiction,
> you have to consider the weird side effects, like, since events play
> out in the Man Kzin Wars that seem to basically be retellings of
> CASABLANCA and THE AFRICAN QUEEN and nobody seems to notice, then, the
> logical deduction would be that Humphrey Bogart movies don't exist in
> the Known Space universe.
The Brennon Monster (protector human) affected records of human history.
By time of the meeting with the Kzin, they had no verifiable evidence of
any wars after Napoleon (and many people didn't even study about such
things as that). As Casablanca is clearly about World War II, Brennon
would have likely destroyed copies of it.
> (I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader how such a thing would A
> SOUND OF THUNDER-ize everything. Would Indiana Jones movies exist
> in the Known Space universe, with Humphrey Bogart and his movies never
> existing?)
As above.
Karl Johanson |
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Since: May 14, 2005
Posts: 63
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Man-Kzin Wars X [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <P0hre.3739$jX6.531@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Algomeysa2
wrote:
> This newsgroup seems to be mostly spam and internet nonsense, but it does
> seem that there is some Larry Niven discussion, so...
>
<G> (not showing teeth).
> I know some Niven fans probably argue whether they're Canon or not to Known
> Space.
>
By the design of the "playground", they're not "canon". If there is a
discrepancy between an MKW story and the canon, then the canon is correct and
the MKW story has been mis-remembered, mangled through the "fog of war", or
includes elements from a Psy-Ops operation in the war which was otherwise wiped
out of official history. Buford Early? Never heard of the guy! Rosicrucian
conspiracy of the Illuminati? Has your 'doc been showing any particularly high
use of anti-psychotics recently?
> I don't know how much approval Niven gives to these, or if he has anything
> to do with them all.
>
Well, he did set ground rules for the playground, then let it open to
the other players. And found himself stimulated in response.
> I recently picked up a paperback, A DARKER GEOMETRY, by Martin and Benford,
> basically an expanding of their novella in MAN-KZIN WARS VII, with
> additional material. Again, not sure how "official" this is to Known
> Space. Niven's name isn't even mentioned anywhere.
>
'A Darker Geometry' was certainly written under the rules of the
playground. But it does seem that Larry isn't best pleased with the direction
in which it has gone. But he knew that was a risk in opening his playground for
other people to play in, and I'm sure that he's self-confident enough to live
with other people playing in his universe. reading between the lines from a few
years ago, he was more exercised about how a potential 'Ringworld' movie was
going to play out. And he has less control over that.
> to basically be retellings of CASABLANCA and THE
> AFRICAN QUEEN and nobody seems to notice, then, the logical deduction would
> be that Humphrey Bogart movies don't exist in the Known Space universe.
>
They exist in the Known Space universe as much as they exist in the
other leg of the Trousers of Time (Discworld universe). How did Heinlein
describe it ? Multi-dimensional pantheistic solipsism, or something along those
lines. That's long strings of syllables that add up to "sit back and enjoy the
ride".
--
Aidan Karley,
Aberdeen, Scotland,
Location: +57°10' , -02°09' (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233
Written at Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:09 +0100 >> Stay informed about: Man-Kzin Wars X |
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Since: May 28, 2004
Posts: 23
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Man-Kzin Wars X [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Karl Johanson" <karljohanson.RemoveThis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:0dire.1666297$8l.1280050@pd7tw1no...
> things as that). As Casablanca is clearly about World War II, Brennon
> would have likely destroyed copies of it.
Yeah, I guess my point was, whether or not the characters are aware of
CASABLANCA and THE AFRICAN QUEEN, that events would transpire during a
human-cat war at Alpha Centauri to mimic events of both movies is rather
improbable. Unless the Universe has a sense of humor.
(Of course, since it's a fictional universe, and its God is Larry Niven, we
know that in fact that Universe does have a sense of humor).
My real point was, I can see some Niven enthusiast worrying about whether
this or that MAN-KZIN WAR book had the right chronology for stasis fields or
Sinclair Molecule Chain or whatever. I could care less.
What bugged me more about it was, "Hey, these guys have wandered into a
retelling of CASABLANCA and THE AFRICAN QUEEN! I'm beginning to doubt the
realism of this imaginary universe!"  >> Stay informed about: Man-Kzin Wars X |
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Since: May 28, 2004
Posts: 23
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Man-Kzin Wars X [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"James Nicoll" <jdnicoll DeleteThis @panix.com> wrote in message
news:d8k70q$n6r$1@reader1.panix.com...
> by a cool idea he is obsessed with, canon goes out the window. My
> favourite
> example is from BEYOND THE FALL OF NIGHT, a sequel to a Clarke novel. In
> the Clarke book, it's actually an important plot point that the Moon is
> gone. In the Benford book, the Moon is present, a fact that nobody in
> the book finds odd.
Ugh, don't get me started about BEYOND THE FALL OF NIGHT.
I'm a big fan of Clarke, and liked both AGAINST THE FALL OF NIGHT and his
own remake, CITY AND THE STARS.
But I think there's a certain responsibility of a book sequel/pastiche to
keep something of the same flavor of the original.
Early on in BEYOND THE FALL OF NIGHT, there's a bit where aliens are using
holograms to make themselves look like humanoids, zooming around on flying
surfboards (sort of like the Silver Surfer), and blowing stuff up.
And right there, I just had to say, I
cannot...imagine...this..happening....in the universe of the original book.
Its beneath the dignity of that universe. Too silly.
Sort of like those Gentry Lee sequels to RENDEZVOUS WITH RAMA. They're not
terrible books, but they just do not fit with the original. There's a
really jarring.... /discontinuity/. >> Stay informed about: Man-Kzin Wars X |
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Since: May 28, 2004
Posts: 23
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Man-Kzin Wars X [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Aidan Karley" <doIlookDAFTenoughTOpost DeleteThis @validEMAILaddressTOa.NEWS.group>
wrote in message
news:VA.0000074b.44bda59c@validemailaddresstoa.news.group...
> They exist in the Known Space universe as much as they exist in the
> other leg of the Trousers of Time (Discworld universe). How did Heinlein
> describe it ? Multi-dimensional pantheistic solipsism, or something along
> those
> lines. That's long strings of syllables that add up to "sit back and enjoy
> the
> ride".
Yeah, I'm not losing sleep over it.
Still, once you start to explore a fleshed out chronology of a fictional
universe, it can be like one of those time travel stories where somebody
goes back and wrecks havoc with a timeline.
For example, in the STAR TREK universe, obviously, there's no television
series called STAR TREK.
But it became such a huge part of late 20th century pop culture, that one
wonders what filled the void in the STAR TREK universe. Was LOST IN
SPACE tremendously more popular? >> Stay informed about: Man-Kzin Wars X |
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Since: Jun 14, 2005
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Man-Kzin Wars X [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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I think it's funny, though that the space shuttle Enterprise was named in
part for the Star Trek and then it's shown as one of the ships named
Enterpise in TNG.
"Algomeysa2" <Algomeysa2NOSPAM RemoveThis @mindspring.comNOPESPAM> wrote in message
news:0oore.3665$hK3.309@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Aidan Karley" <doIlookDAFTenoughTOpost RemoveThis @validEMAILaddressTOa.NEWS.group>
> wrote in message
> news:VA.0000074b.44bda59c@validemailaddresstoa.news.group...
>
>> They exist in the Known Space universe as much as they exist in the
>> other leg of the Trousers of Time (Discworld universe). How did Heinlein
>> describe it ? Multi-dimensional pantheistic solipsism, or something along
>> those
>> lines. That's long strings of syllables that add up to "sit back and
>> enjoy the
>> ride".
>
> Yeah, I'm not losing sleep over it.
>
> Still, once you start to explore a fleshed out chronology of a fictional
> universe, it can be like one of those time travel stories where somebody
> goes back and wrecks havoc with a timeline.
>
> For example, in the STAR TREK universe, obviously, there's no television
> series called STAR TREK.
>
> But it became such a huge part of late 20th century pop culture, that one
> wonders what filled the void in the STAR TREK universe. Was LOST IN
> SPACE tremendously more popular?
> >> Stay informed about: Man-Kzin Wars X |
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Since: Nov 08, 2004
Posts: 26
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:41 am
Post subject: Re: Man-Kzin Wars X [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Aidan Karley" <doIlookDAFTenoughTOpost.DeleteThis@validEMAILaddressTOa.NEWS.group>
wrote in message
news:VA.00000751.47f5826d@validemailaddresstoa.news.group...
> In article <0oore.3665$hK3.309@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> Algomeysa2
> wrote:
>> But it became such a huge part of late 20th century pop culture, that
>> one
>> wonders what filled the void in the STAR TREK universe.
>>
> How much Star Trek relevance will remain in a century? When did
> you
> last read Dickens?
I see movie versions of A Christmas Carol every year or so.
Karl Johanson >> Stay informed about: Man-Kzin Wars X |
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Since: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Man-Kzin Wars X [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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in article VA.00000751.47f5826d DeleteThis @validemailaddresstoa.news.group, Aidan
Karley at doIlookDAFTenoughTOpost DeleteThis @validEMAILaddressTOa.NEWS.group wrote on
6/14/05 3:00 AM:
> It's probably a year since I actually watched more than a couple of
> minutes of any of the Star Trek episodes, any series ; and I'm told there
> are entire series that I've never seen. And I don't care.
If you missed the last 2 series, and especially the last one, you're much
better off. >> Stay informed about: Man-Kzin Wars X |
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Since: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Man-Kzin Wars X [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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in article ENBre.574$on5.528@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com, John Doe at
318ti.TakeThisOut@flash.net wrote on 6/14/05 7:25 AM:
> I think it's funny, though that the space shuttle Enterprise was named in
> part for the Star Trek and then it's shown as one of the ships named
> Enterpise in TNG.
Small nit. It was shown in TMP, not TNG. And Archer's ship wasn't. So
they won't even remember him by then. >> Stay informed about: Man-Kzin Wars X |
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Since: Jul 07, 2005
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Man-Kzin Wars X [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Algomeysa2 wrote:
> I just finished MAN-KZIN WARS X. Unlike the previous volumes, this one is
> all by one author, Hal Colebatch. There are 4 stories set at different
> times on Wunderland (Alpha Centauri).
>
> I thought it was pretty good. I've found all the MAN-KZIN WARS volumes
> entertaining, but usually quickly forgotten. By the time I find the next
> one in paperback, I'm not always sure I've read the previous one.
I was fairly disinterested in the whole mess. Other than a couple
scenes, the story never really grabbed me, and I was disappointed that
Colebatch left the main character (whatever his name was) out of the
last story.
> My problem with some of them was a little more basic; in several of the
> volumes, there are stories that seem very tongue in cheek, almost inside
> jokes... pastiches of Humphrey Bogart movies, CASABLANCA and THE AFRICAN
> QUEEN.
You mean "Treasure of the Sierra Madre," I think. I felt like I wasted
200 pages reading that thing - I enjoyed the movie, but reading some
science fiction kabuki version of the movie annoyed the heck out of me. >> Stay informed about: Man-Kzin Wars X |
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Since: May 28, 2004
Posts: 23
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:52 am
Post subject: Re: Man-Kzin Wars X [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Theron" <scary_penguin RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120768754.240342.44540@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> My problem with some of them was a little more basic; in several of the
>> volumes, there are stories that seem very tongue in cheek, almost inside
>> jokes... pastiches of Humphrey Bogart movies, CASABLANCA and THE AFRICAN
>> QUEEN.
>
> You mean "Treasure of the Sierra Madre," I think. I felt like I wasted
> 200 pages reading that thing - I enjoyed the movie, but reading some
> science fiction kabuki version of the movie annoyed the heck out of me.
No, I meant what I said, they were riffing off CASABLANCA and AFRICAN QUEEN,
but they may well have done TREASURE as well. Obviously, it was becoming
a big inside joke to try to reference all of Bogart's movies. For all I
know, there were sly references to KEY LARGO, TO HAVE AND HAVE NOT, MALTESE
FALCON, etc.
I don't have a problem if someone feels the need to do a science fiction
pastiche of this sort, but setting it in the Known Space universe was
peculiar. >> Stay informed about: Man-Kzin Wars X |
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:02 am
Post subject: Man Kzin Wars - Bogart "Homages" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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I hadn't read the others - it didn't occur to me that MKW would include
more than one retread Bogart movie. Googling reveals:
"The Children's Hour" - MKWII - Casablanca
"The Asteroid Queen" - ?? - The African Queen
"The Hall of the Mountain King - MKWV - Treasure of the Sierra Madre
Jerry Pournelle's website has the following entry:
Annoying mail from someone who discovered that the plot of Hall of the
Mountain King by me and Stirling was more or less that of the old
Bogart movie Treasure of the Sierra Madre (which was itself derived
from older themes, but leave that). I'm a bit astonished when someone
believes he has made a great discovery: after all, all the plots of the
Pournelle/Stirling contributions to the Man/Kzin Wars series were old
Bogart movies. I like those old Bogart movies. This chap took off in
high dudgeon, as if I have somehow done some harm to those fine old
pictures. Wasn't me that colorized a couple of them. I doubt Bogart had
any Tnuctipun, or gave the home life of the Thrintin and Kzin in his
pictures, but what the hell. Anyway, fair warning to anyone who
couldn't figure it out: The Children's Hour has strong parallels to
Casablanca, The Asteroid Queen has some parallels to The African Queen,
and Hall of the Mountain King does bear a strong similarity to parts of
Treasure of the Sierra Madre, and if that is likely to upset you, don't
read them. We thought we were doing an homage; it was more difficult to
make these stories of war between humans and cats follow those plots
than it would have been to start from scratch; but we did it. If you
can't stand that notion, you have been warned. >> Stay informed about: Man-Kzin Wars X |
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Man Kzin Wars - Bogart "Homages" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <1120831499.064383.121000.RemoveThis@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Theron <scary_penguin.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> writes
>I hadn't read the others - it didn't occur to me that MKW would include
>more than one retread Bogart movie. Googling reveals:
>
>"The Children's Hour" - MKWII - Casablanca
>
>"The Asteroid Queen" - ?? - The African Queen
>
>"The Hall of the Mountain King - MKWV - Treasure of the Sierra Madre
>
I really enjoyed them. Especially the "Hang on a minute..." moment when
the light first dawns. So far, "The Children Hour" is by far the best of
all the MKW stories, though "Grass Eater" comes a close second.
--
Steve Charlton | You may have trouble getting
steve.RemoveThis@gnirekoms.freeserve.co.uk | permission to aerobrake or
hint: ^^^^^^^^^ | lithobrake asteroids on Earth!
reverse this | - James D Nicoll >> Stay informed about: Man-Kzin Wars X |
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Man Kzin Wars - Bogart "Homages" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Theron" <scary_penguin DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120831499.064383.121000@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>I hadn't read the others - it didn't occur to me that MKW would include
> more than one retread Bogart movie. Googling reveals:
>
> "The Children's Hour" - MKWII - Casablanca
> "The Asteroid Queen" - ?? - The African Queen
> "The Hall of the Mountain King - MKWV - Treasure of the Sierra Madre
Yeah, I noticed the first two when I read them, if I didn't notice it in
"Hall Of the Mountain King", it was probably because at that time I'd never
seen TREASURE OF THE SIERRA MADRE.
I didn't care for the homage/pastiche/whatever. Accepting this future
history of stasis fields and Slavers and Ringworlds requires enough
suspension of disbelief, suddenly grafting on an elaborate inside joke of
parallels to Humphrey Bogart movies was over the top.
I am reminded of a strange Star Trek novel, ISHMAEL, by Barbara Hambry.
In it, Spock goes back in time to 1800's Oregon. Well, as it turns
out, it's a strange cross reference to a 60's Mark Leonard Western TV show
called HERE COME THE BRIDES. Basically the Star Trek characters hang out
with the characters from this other TV show. Weird! >> Stay informed about: Man-Kzin Wars X |
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