Medical technology

On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 21:42:46 -0600, "deowll" <deowll RemoveThis @bellsouth.net>
wrote:

>You are basicly right about broken bones. DW has already had bones reshaped
>by nanites. They could join the breaks.
>
>I consider this medical case to be no more than a story plot feature that is
>out of line with the rules of the place as described. Having to do surgery
>in order to put in an "artifical nerve" when you have nanites is no more
>than a story plot feature.
>
>Being true to the place would have seriously messed up several good books so
>I overlooked it.

But how recent is the technology? Has it reached the point of being
useable for this sort of thing?

We have the Mesan nannites that certainly are capable of manipulation
at that level but we don't know if they are benign or not. Mesa
obviously doesn't care.

The Manticoran ones seem capable of working at a gross scale and
certainly could fix a bone but can they do the detail work like
nerves? I can't recall anything we have seen that implies they can
work at that level.

It's also very expensive so far.
 >> Stay informed about: Medical technology 

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but Don Sample <dsample DeleteThis @synapse.net>
wrote on Sat, 13 Jan 2007 04:54:37 -0500 in alt.books.david-weber :
>In article <tu5hq2hdsl4aj4gaj0ehod6trc0kvna31n DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
> pyotr filipivich <phamp DeleteThis @mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Manticore is putting money into medical R&D, (Who knows what spin offs
>> they might develop), just not to the extent that Beowulf does. I'm
>> Guessing / Speculating (and over simplifying), Beowulf does a lot of
>> "basic" research into how it all works, including a lot of research which
>> determines 'that doesn't work', while Manticore are the engineers, who take
>> the breakthroughs of a place like Beowulf and make the "neat tools" which
>> make it applicable. Over-simplifying.
>
>Manticore is right next door to Beowulf, via the Junction. Some
>Manticoran doctors go to Beowulfian medical schools. (That's how
>Honor's parents met, remember? And her obstetrician went to med school
>there too.) Manticore may not be concentrating on medical research, but
>they probably get the fruits of the research being done on Beowulf at
>pretty much the same time as the Beowulfians. Manticoran doctors will
>get their Beowulfian medical journals delivered to them with days of
>them being published on Beowulf.
>
>Also, if there *is* something better available on Beowulf, White Haven
>could afford to send Emily there for treatment.

Damn straight. As is pointed out, the most difficult time consuming
part of a trip to Beowulf is the planetary gravity well, and the trek to
and from the Junction.

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
"Given our monstrous, overgrown government structure, any three letters
chosen at random would probably designate an agency or part of a
department that could be profitably abolished." Milton Freidman
 >> Stay informed about: Medical technology 

"Loren Pechtel" <lorenpechtel DeleteThis @hotmail.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:45a92e4c$2$16102$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 21:42:46 -0600, "deowll" <deowll DeleteThis @bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
>>You are basicly right about broken bones. DW has already had bones
>>reshaped
>>by nanites. They could join the breaks.
>>
>>I consider this medical case to be no more than a story plot feature that
>>is
>>out of line with the rules of the place as described. Having to do surgery
>>in order to put in an "artifical nerve" when you have nanites is no more
>>than a story plot feature.
>>
>>Being true to the place would have seriously messed up several good books
>>so
>>I overlooked it.
>
> But how recent is the technology? Has it reached the point of being
> useable for this sort of thing?
>
> We have the Mesan nannites that certainly are capable of manipulation
> at that level but we don't know if they are benign or not. Mesa
> obviously doesn't care.
>
> The Manticoran ones seem capable of working at a gross scale and
> certainly could fix a bone but can they do the detail work like
> nerves? I can't recall anything we have seen that implies they can
> work at that level.
>
> It's also very expensive so far.

HH is noted wondering why a certain crew member doesn't get a biosculpt. Not
cheap but seemingly affordable.

Actually there are major problems with the entire thing. Make a person large
and you need to add cells by making cells divide. Smaller and you kill
cells. It isn't clear to me how ninites would cause cell divisions though I
suppose they could.

It would be best to limit changes. I don't think they are completely
reversible.


I'm not sure what DW thinks bone and connective tissue is.
 >> Stay informed about: Medical technology 

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 19:34:43 -0600, "deowll" <deowll RemoveThis @bellsouth.net>
wrote:

>> We have the Mesan nannites that certainly are capable of manipulation
>> at that level but we don't know if they are benign or not. Mesa
>> obviously doesn't care.
>>
>> The Manticoran ones seem capable of working at a gross scale and
>> certainly could fix a bone but can they do the detail work like
>> nerves? I can't recall anything we have seen that implies they can
>> work at that level.
>>
>> It's also very expensive so far.
>
>HH is noted wondering why a certain crew member doesn't get a biosculpt. Not
>cheap but seemingly affordable.

But that's not change at the nannite level like was done in Crown of
Slaves. That's expen$$$ive.
 >> Stay informed about: Medical technology 

"Aahz Maruch" <aahz DeleteThis @pobox.com> wrote in message
news:eo67fu$oqt$1@panix3.panix.com...
> In article <dsample-E30790.14453711012007 DeleteThis @news.giganews.com>,
> Don Sample <dsample DeleteThis @synapse.net> wrote:
>>In article <eo5lon$jfs$1@panix3.panix.com>,
>> aahz DeleteThis @pobox.com (Aahz Maruch) wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm re-reading _At All Costs_, and the following question occurred to
>>> me:
>>> Anyone want to bet that the Manties are going to use the Mesan nanotech
>>> to restore Emily's nervous system?
>>
>>The Mesan's nanotech seems to be entirely unsuited to such things.
>>turning people into robots is a lot different from repairing damaged
>>nerves. The Mesan's nano-assassins are software. Emily's problems are
>>hardware.
>
> What I was thinking was that there has to be two-way feedback at the
> nano-level for the Mesan tech to work. That means it could probably be
> used to bridge over the gaps in Emily's nervous system, assuming that the
> nerves beyond her spinal cord aren't totally broken.
>
>>And Manticore has its own nano-tech, anyway. The nano-bots they used to
>>swap Berry's and Ruth's appearance in Crown of Slaves is closer to what
>>you need to fix Emily (Also Honor's arm, eye, and other damage.)
>
> Arm and eye, yes; not so sure about neural issues.
>
> Come to think, I guess I'm surprised that even though regen doesn't work,
> there hasn't been anything said about cloned body parts. Obviously
> Honor's body must have *some* kind of self-repair capability or she
> wouldn't have survived so much...
>

She couldn't even have incorporated the robo-arm and -eye without
normal healing. It would seen that the inability to accept Regen-a-Bit(TM)
has to do with something genetic that prevents it from working--either
blocking
the process or, more likely, some molecular incompatibility that no-one has
bothered to figure a way around.
 >> Stay informed about: Medical technology 

gS49 wrote:
> "Aahz Maruch" <aahz.RemoveThis@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:eo67fu$oqt$1@panix3.panix.com...
>> In article <dsample-E30790.14453711012007.RemoveThis@news.giganews.com>,
>> Don Sample <dsample.RemoveThis@synapse.net> wrote:
>>> In article <eo5lon$jfs$1@panix3.panix.com>,
>>> aahz.RemoveThis@pobox.com (Aahz Maruch) wrote:
>>>> I'm re-reading _At All Costs_, and the following question occurred to
>>>> me:
>>>> Anyone want to bet that the Manties are going to use the Mesan nanotech
>>>> to restore Emily's nervous system?
>>> The Mesan's nanotech seems to be entirely unsuited to such things.
>>> turning people into robots is a lot different from repairing damaged
>>> nerves. The Mesan's nano-assassins are software. Emily's problems are
>>> hardware.
>> What I was thinking was that there has to be two-way feedback at the
>> nano-level for the Mesan tech to work. That means it could probably be
>> used to bridge over the gaps in Emily's nervous system, assuming that the
>> nerves beyond her spinal cord aren't totally broken.
>>
>>> And Manticore has its own nano-tech, anyway. The nano-bots they used to
>>> swap Berry's and Ruth's appearance in Crown of Slaves is closer to what
>>> you need to fix Emily (Also Honor's arm, eye, and other damage.)
>> Arm and eye, yes; not so sure about neural issues.
>>
>> Come to think, I guess I'm surprised that even though regen doesn't work,
>> there hasn't been anything said about cloned body parts. Obviously
>> Honor's body must have *some* kind of self-repair capability or she
>> wouldn't have survived so much...
>>
>
> She couldn't even have incorporated the robo-arm and -eye without
> normal healing. It would seen that the inability to accept Regen-a-Bit(TM)
> has to do with something genetic that prevents it from working--either
> blocking
> the process or, more likely, some molecular incompatibility that no-one has
> bothered to figure a way around.

At All Costs, Chapt 16 (love having these stories on disc!):

"You know what Honor's been through in terms of physical injury. Nothing
that's happened to her was as severe as what happened to you, but it was
more than enough to make her worry about passing her inability to
regenerate on to her children. Fortunately for her, her mother
happens-if I may be pardoned for blowing my own horn-to be one of the
Star Kingdom's leading geneticists. I made identifying the gene group
which prevents her from regenerating a personal project, and I found it
years ago. The problem child is a dominant, unfortunately, but it's not
associated with the locked sequences of the Meyerdahl modifications-if
it were, Alfred wouldn't regenerate either, and he does-so it's not
automatically selected for at fertilization. Once I'd determined that, I
also determined that she carries it only on the chromosome she received
from her father, and I've done a scan on her child. As a result of
which, I was able to reassure her that she hasn't passed it along to him."
 >> Stay informed about: Medical technology 

"gS49" <gersmith00.TakeThisOut@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:eBwqh.879$E35.351@trnddc02...
>
> "Aahz Maruch" <aahz.TakeThisOut@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:eo67fu$oqt$1@panix3.panix.com...
>> In article <dsample-E30790.14453711012007.TakeThisOut@news.giganews.com>,
>> Don Sample <dsample.TakeThisOut@synapse.net> wrote:
>>>In article <eo5lon$jfs$1@panix3.panix.com>,
>>> aahz.TakeThisOut@pobox.com (Aahz Maruch) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm re-reading _At All Costs_, and the following question occurred to
>>>> me:
>>>> Anyone want to bet that the Manties are going to use the Mesan nanotech
>>>> to restore Emily's nervous system?
>>>
>>>The Mesan's nanotech seems to be entirely unsuited to such things.
>>>turning people into robots is a lot different from repairing damaged
>>>nerves. The Mesan's nano-assassins are software. Emily's problems are
>>>hardware.
>>
>> What I was thinking was that there has to be two-way feedback at the
>> nano-level for the Mesan tech to work. That means it could probably be
>> used to bridge over the gaps in Emily's nervous system, assuming that the
>> nerves beyond her spinal cord aren't totally broken.
>>
>>>And Manticore has its own nano-tech, anyway. The nano-bots they used to
>>>swap Berry's and Ruth's appearance in Crown of Slaves is closer to what
>>>you need to fix Emily (Also Honor's arm, eye, and other damage.)
>>
>> Arm and eye, yes; not so sure about neural issues.
>>
>> Come to think, I guess I'm surprised that even though regen doesn't work,
>> there hasn't been anything said about cloned body parts. Obviously
>> Honor's body must have *some* kind of self-repair capability or she
>> wouldn't have survived so much...
>>
>
> She couldn't even have incorporated the robo-arm and -eye without
> normal healing. It would seen that the inability to accept
> Regen-a-Bit(TM)
> has to do with something genetic that prevents it from working--either
> blocking
> the process or, more likely, some molecular incompatibility that no-one
> has
> bothered to figure a way around.
>
>

In this case the rules are what ever facilitate the plot. Don't look to
deep.
 >> Stay informed about: Medical technology 

deowll wrote:
> "gS49" <gersmith00.DeleteThis@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:eBwqh.879$E35.351@trnddc02...
>> "Aahz Maruch" <aahz.DeleteThis@pobox.com> wrote in message
>> news:eo67fu$oqt$1@panix3.panix.com...
>>> In article <dsample-E30790.14453711012007.DeleteThis@news.giganews.com>,
>>> Don Sample <dsample.DeleteThis@synapse.net> wrote:
>>>> In article <eo5lon$jfs$1@panix3.panix.com>,
>>>> aahz.DeleteThis@pobox.com (Aahz Maruch) wrote:
>>>>> I'm re-reading _At All Costs_, and the following question occurred to
>>>>> me:
>>>>> Anyone want to bet that the Manties are going to use the Mesan nanotech
>>>>> to restore Emily's nervous system?
>>>> The Mesan's nanotech seems to be entirely unsuited to such things.
>>>> turning people into robots is a lot different from repairing damaged
>>>> nerves. The Mesan's nano-assassins are software. Emily's problems are
>>>> hardware.
>>> What I was thinking was that there has to be two-way feedback at the
>>> nano-level for the Mesan tech to work. That means it could probably be
>>> used to bridge over the gaps in Emily's nervous system, assuming that the
>>> nerves beyond her spinal cord aren't totally broken.
>>>
>>>> And Manticore has its own nano-tech, anyway. The nano-bots they used to
>>>> swap Berry's and Ruth's appearance in Crown of Slaves is closer to what
>>>> you need to fix Emily (Also Honor's arm, eye, and other damage.)
>>> Arm and eye, yes; not so sure about neural issues.
>>>
>>> Come to think, I guess I'm surprised that even though regen doesn't work,
>>> there hasn't been anything said about cloned body parts. Obviously
>>> Honor's body must have *some* kind of self-repair capability or she
>>> wouldn't have survived so much...
>>>
>> She couldn't even have incorporated the robo-arm and -eye without
>> normal healing. It would seen that the inability to accept
>> Regen-a-Bit(TM)
>> has to do with something genetic that prevents it from working--either
>> blocking
>> the process or, more likely, some molecular incompatibility that no-one
>> has
>> bothered to figure a way around.
>>
>>
>
> In this case the rules are what ever facilitate the plot. Don't look to
> deep.

Heh, JMS, the guy who produced and wrote much of Babylon 5, used that as
an explanation for a number of science-related questions posed to him
about the show. B5 is known as one of the sci-fi shows with more "hard"
science in them, compared to the "Comic book science" of Star Trek and
Star Wars (not that much of the science in B5 tends to not work when
looked at closely, like using centrifuge sections to generate gravity on
space ships and stations, just that they tried a lot harder to make
things look "real"), but sometimes things just couldn't be explained
other than "Cause I wanted it to work that way".

--
--Jeffrey MacHott

"Sola bona lingua est mortua lingua"
 >> Stay informed about: Medical technology 

deowll wrote:
> "Loren Pechtel" <lorenpechtel.RemoveThis@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote in message
> news:45a92e4c$2$16102$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>> On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 21:42:46 -0600, "deowll" <deowll.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> You are basicly right about broken bones. DW has already had bones
>>> reshaped
>>> by nanites. They could join the breaks.
>>>
>>> I consider this medical case to be no more than a story plot feature that
>>> is
>>> out of line with the rules of the place as described. Having to do surgery
>>> in order to put in an "artifical nerve" when you have nanites is no more
>>> than a story plot feature.
>>>
>>> Being true to the place would have seriously messed up several good books
>>> so
>>> I overlooked it.
>> But how recent is the technology? Has it reached the point of being
>> useable for this sort of thing?
>>
>> We have the Mesan nannites that certainly are capable of manipulation
>> at that level but we don't know if they are benign or not. Mesa
>> obviously doesn't care.
>>
>> The Manticoran ones seem capable of working at a gross scale and
>> certainly could fix a bone but can they do the detail work like
>> nerves? I can't recall anything we have seen that implies they can
>> work at that level.
>>
>> It's also very expensive so far.
>
> HH is noted wondering why a certain crew member doesn't get a biosculpt. Not
> cheap but seemingly affordable.
>
> Actually there are major problems with the entire thing. Make a person large
> and you need to add cells by making cells divide. Smaller and you kill
> cells. It isn't clear to me how ninites would cause cell divisions though I
> suppose they could.
>
> It would be best to limit changes. I don't think they are completely
> reversible.
>
>
> I'm not sure what DW thinks bone and connective tissue is.

I get the general impression that biosculpting would be fairly limited
in nature, sort of a high-tech plastic surgury. The job we saw in
"Crown of Slaves" on Princess Berry and Ruth Zilwicki (or was it the
other way around? I can't remember.) was noted as being a very
over-the-top job compared to what was the norm, including having to muck
with their heights by a few centimeters.

--
--Jeffrey MacHott

"Sola bona lingua est mortua lingua"
 >> Stay informed about: Medical technology 

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but Jeffrey MacHott
<Raguleader DeleteThis @netzero.net> wrote on Mon, 15 Jan 2007 02:19:16 GMT in
alt.books.david-weber :
>
>> I'm not sure what DW thinks bone and connective tissue is.
>
>I get the general impression that biosculpting would be fairly limited
>in nature, sort of a high-tech plastic surgury. The job we saw in
>"Crown of Slaves" on Princess Berry and Ruth Zilwicki (or was it the
>other way around? I can't remember.
It was Princess Ruth, and just plain Berry "the nice". Then it became
Crown Princess Berry, now Queen Berry, aiming to become known to history as
"Good Queen Berry."

>) was noted as being a very
>over-the-top job compared to what was the norm, including having to muck
> with their heights by a few centimeters.

Probably in the "Aren't you glad the government is paying for this?"
price range, as well. There are things which are feasible, but very
expensive, such that only a government, or large corporation can come up
with the funding, let alone the justification.

tschus
pyotr




--
pyotr filipivich.
"I wish you wouldn't use the mind control device - I get
these terrible migranes until it's finished." Jonathon
 >> Stay informed about: Medical technology 

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but Offbreed <offbreed_106.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com>
wrote on Sun, 14 Jan 2007 15:04:21 -0800 in alt.books.david-weber :
>gS49 wrote:
>> "Aahz Maruch" <aahz.TakeThisOut@pobox.com> wrote in message
>> news:eo67fu$oqt$1@panix3.panix.com...
>>> In article <dsample-E30790.14453711012007.TakeThisOut@news.giganews.com>,
>>> Don Sample <dsample.TakeThisOut@synapse.net> wrote:
>>>> In article <eo5lon$jfs$1@panix3.panix.com>,
>>>> aahz.TakeThisOut@pobox.com (Aahz Maruch) wrote:
>>>>> I'm re-reading _At All Costs_, and the following question occurred to
>>>>> me:
>>>>> Anyone want to bet that the Manties are going to use the Mesan nanotech
>>>>> to restore Emily's nervous system?
>>>> The Mesan's nanotech seems to be entirely unsuited to such things.
>>>> turning people into robots is a lot different from repairing damaged
>>>> nerves. The Mesan's nano-assassins are software. Emily's problems are
>>>> hardware.
>>> What I was thinking was that there has to be two-way feedback at the
>>> nano-level for the Mesan tech to work. That means it could probably be
>>> used to bridge over the gaps in Emily's nervous system, assuming that the
>>> nerves beyond her spinal cord aren't totally broken.
>>>
>>>> And Manticore has its own nano-tech, anyway. The nano-bots they used to
>>>> swap Berry's and Ruth's appearance in Crown of Slaves is closer to what
>>>> you need to fix Emily (Also Honor's arm, eye, and other damage.)
>>> Arm and eye, yes; not so sure about neural issues.
>>>
>>> Come to think, I guess I'm surprised that even though regen doesn't work,
>>> there hasn't been anything said about cloned body parts. Obviously
>>> Honor's body must have *some* kind of self-repair capability or she
>>> wouldn't have survived so much...
>>>
>>
>> She couldn't even have incorporated the robo-arm and -eye without
>> normal healing. It would seen that the inability to accept Regen-a-Bit(TM)
>> has to do with something genetic that prevents it from working--either
>> blocking
>> the process or, more likely, some molecular incompatibility that no-one has
>> bothered to figure a way around.
>
>At All Costs, Chapt 16 (love having these stories on disc!):
>
>"You know what Honor's been through in terms of physical injury. Nothing
>that's happened to her was as severe as what happened to you, but it was
>more than enough to make her worry about passing her inability to
>regenerate on to her children. Fortunately for her, her mother
>happens-if I may be pardoned for blowing my own horn-to be one of the
>Star Kingdom's leading geneticists. I made identifying the gene group
>which prevents her from regenerating a personal project, and I found it
>years ago. The problem child is a dominant, unfortunately, but it's not
>associated with the locked sequences of the Meyerdahl modifications-if
>it were, Alfred wouldn't regenerate either, and he does-so it's not
>automatically selected for at fertilization. Once I'd determined that, I
>also determined that she carries it only on the chromosome she received
>from her father, and I've done a scan on her child. As a result of
>which, I was able to reassure her that she hasn't passed it along to him."

Like I said, its a copyright notice encoded in the Genome.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
We now return you to something called reality.
 >> Stay informed about: Medical technology 

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but Jeffrey MacHott
<Raguleader DeleteThis @netzero.net> wrote on Mon, 15 Jan 2007 02:16:55 GMT in
alt.books.david-weber :
>deowll wrote:
>>
>> In this case the rules are what ever facilitate the plot. Don't look to
>> deep.
>
>Heh, JMS, the guy who produced and wrote much of Babylon 5, used that as
>an explanation for a number of science-related questions posed to him
>about the show. B5 is known as one of the sci-fi shows with more "hard"
>science in them, compared to the "Comic book science" of Star Trek and
>Star Wars (not that much of the science in B5 tends to not work when
>looked at closely, like using centrifuge sections to generate gravity on
>space ships and stations, just that they tried a lot harder to make
>things look "real"), but sometimes things just couldn't be explained
>other than "Cause I wanted it to work that way".

Ah, the most powerful force in the known universe: the author's desire.

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
We now return you to something called reality.
 >> Stay informed about: Medical technology 

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "deowll" <deowll.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net>
wrote on Sun, 14 Jan 2007 19:12:01 -0600 in alt.books.david-weber :
>
>> So, it is possible for Manticore to turn the use of Mesan nanotech back
>> on Mesa, just perhaps not with the same finesse that Beowulf would do. In
>> a sense, Manticore is to Beowulf in bio-tech, as Haven is to Manticore in
>> engineering: will just have to use a bigger hammer to overcome their
>> disadvantages.
>>
>>
>> tschus
>
>First people have to learn about the nano tech trick. At the point a lot of
>people are going to want to do something a lot less indirect than play
>around with nano tech.

Yeah, I can see it now:

"Okay, now we are going to test your nanotech's ability to moderate
pain. Prepare the baseball bat!"

Somehow, I suspect that Anton & Victor can do bad cop, worse cop real,
real well. "Are you going to come quietly, or will I need earplugs?"

"I take no enjoyment from your pain, this is for Science." (Okay,
I've been reading Girl Genius again. "Bwahahahaha! ")

I'll stop now.


tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
"Given our monstrous, overgrown government structure, any three letters
chosen at random would probably designate an agency or part of a
department that could be profitably abolished." Milton Freidman
 >> Stay informed about: Medical technology