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Melting rings with dragon-fire

 
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user1386

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Since: Aug 18, 2004
Posts: 103



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:40 am
Post subject: Melting rings with dragon-fire
Archived from groups: rec>arts>books>tolkien, others (more info?)

"It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume
the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left
on Earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there
ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have
harmed the One Ring..." (_The Shadow of the Past_)

Even if dragon-fire could melt the Rings, how was one supposed
to go about such a procedure? Dragons are not reputed to be
among the most cooperative of creatures. Here's one scenario:

1. get a (very) long pair of tongs. preferably made of some
kind of high temperature ceramic
2. grasp Ring in tongs
3. put on your best pair of Nikes
4. approach dragon
5. address dragon in courteous terms: "Excuse me, Sir Angalacon
the Black, would you mind terribly if I asked you to breath
a little bit of your fire on this trinket, the least of Rings?
6. run like stink if dragon complies (or even if he doesn't)

Sean

ps. adiabatic flame temperature of acetylene: 3160 C
estimated temperature of the Earth's core: 5000 C
flame temperature of Angalacon the Black: ???
typical temperature of volcanic lava: 900 to 1200 C
temperature of magma in Crack of Doom in Orodruin: ???

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Andy Bussey

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Since: Feb 10, 2005
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:40 am
Post subject: Re: Melting rings with dragon-fire [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Sean wrote:
  > Even if dragon-fire could melt the Rings, how was one supposed
 > to go about such a procedure? Dragons are not reputed to be
 > among the most cooperative of creatures.

How about:
1. Dwarf wears a ring
2. Dragon eats dwarf
3. Therefore, dragon eats ring
4. ???
5. Profit!

Andy<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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news45

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Since: Jan 28, 2005
Posts: 328



(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:40 am
Post subject: Re: Melting rings with dragon-fire [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Sean wrote:

 > "It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume
 > the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left
 > on Earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there
 > ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have
 > harmed the One Ring..." (_The Shadow of the Past_)
 >
 > ps. adiabatic flame temperature of acetylene: 3160 C
 > estimated temperature of the Earth's core: 5000 C
 > flame temperature of Angalacon the Black: ???
 > typical temperature of volcanic lava: 900 to 1200 C
 > temperature of magma in Crack of Doom in Orodruin: ???

The Crack of Doom is not just any old volcanic vent, so I think it's safe to
say the temperature could be well above the 1200C of typical lava. Iron
melts at 1500C, and they obviously have the resources to smelt iron, so
Ancalagon must have been hotter than that. I've seen no evidence, even in
PJ's documentary, that even dwarves have acetylene, so no reason to suppose
that wouldn't have been an adequate means of destruction. Do we have
evidence of dwarves smelting any other metals with known melting points
above that of iron? I doubt anyone knows the thermal properties of
mithril.

At a rough guess, I'd have to figure Ancalagon's fires to be in the 2000C
range and the Crack of Doom to be 2000-3000C.
--
derek<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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disintegration

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Since: Feb 02, 2004
Posts: 104



(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:40 am
Post subject: Re: Melting rings with dragon-fire [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>books>tolkien (more info?)

Temperature means little by itself - portions of the Earth's
thermosphere reach 1500C, but the Ring wouldn't get that hot if it were
exposed to the thermosphere; the latter is far too thin. Lava would be
good at melting things partly because of the temperature, but also
because with its much greater density and higher specific heat the lava
is going to impart much, much more heat to a metal Ring in contact with
it than is a mixture of acetylene and air at sea level - even though
the lava's temperature is lower.

One can, I think, safely assume that dragons are nowhere near 3000C
inside, because if they were they'd melt or combust anything they
touched - that heat has got to go *somewhere*, and a lot of it will be
radiated no matter how well insulated the dragon is (so Smaug could
never sleep atop a heap of coins, he'd melt right through it). Also,
their blood, for instance Glaurung's, would be much hotter than the
evidence indicates if they were that hot inside. It's a safer bet that,
while they're hotter than ordinary animals inside, the fiery breath is
a result of a chemical reaction occurring at or near the point of
exhalation.

Also, we have no reason to think the Dwarves or anyone else has the
technology to melt iron. For much of human history we have lacked the
technology for doing so and used other techniques for ironworking -
primitive smelters and forges couldn't exceed a temperature of maybe
700C. Smelting is a process of reducing iron oxide and removing the
impurities, and the latter was done by hammering them out of a "bloom"
(a spongy and still very impure mass left after the iron in the ore
became semiliquid and much of the non-iron burned off) rather than
simply putting ore over a fire and watching the pure liquid metal run
out the way one could do with, say, copper ore. So Ancalagon's fire
could have been hotter than anything the Dwarves had and yet still not
hot enough to melt relatively pure iron, even if his breath could be
sustained and contained in a furnace.

It's probably also safe to assume that mithril requires more than just
extra heat to work it, as does, say, platinum, which wasn't
successfully isolated and worked until almost 1800 (and even then only
by using very dangerous, highly toxic chemicals). It may be that most
dragons' breath couldn't melt mithril alloys either (we know that the
Dwarves had dragon-resistant armor at the War of Wrath). The lava of
Orodruin may have been more than just hotter, it may have contained
and/or outgassed unusual chemicals which lowered the melting point of
the unique Ring alloy.

What this boils down to is that, even absent any supernatural
explanation, the lava at the Crack of Doom may have been "only" around
1000-1200C and still be hotter than any furnace in Middle-earth, yet
cooler than the breath of an above-average dragon, but even so still be
the only source of the fire and unique chemical properties that made
melting and/or working the Ring possible.

- Bruce Tucker
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Natman

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Since: Mar 03, 2005
Posts: 13



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:55 am
Post subject: Re: Melting rings with dragon-fire [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>books>tolkien, others (more info?)

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 09:27:03 +0000, Andy Bussey
<andybussey.DeleteThis@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

 >Sean wrote:
  > > Even if dragon-fire could melt the Rings, how was one supposed
  >> to go about such a procedure? Dragons are not reputed to be
  >> among the most cooperative of creatures.
 >
 >How about:
 >1. Dwarf wears a ring
 >2. Dragon eats dwarf
 >3. Therefore, dragon eats ring
 >4. ???
 >5. Profit!
 >
 >Andy
Just like giving your cat a pill; wrap it in something he likes.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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michels

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Since: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 3



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:40 pm
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Sean <no.spam.DeleteThis@no.spam> wrote:
 > 1. get a (very) long pair of tongs. preferably made of some
 > kind of high temperature ceramic
 > 2. grasp Ring in tongs
 > 3. put on your best pair of Nikes
 > 4. approach dragon
 > 5. address dragon in courteous terms: "Excuse me, Sir Angalacon
 > the Black, would you mind terribly if I asked you to breath
 > a little bit of your fire on this trinket, the least of Rings?
 > 6. run like stink if dragon complies (or even if he doesn't)

1. gather a party of snobby friends
2. visit an unsuspecting hobbit and coax him into travelling with you
3. on the way make sure hobbit doesn't get cooked by trolls, slain by
orcs, eaten by wargs, dropped by eagles or shot by elves
4. stop at the tunnel to the dragon's cave
5. tell the hobbit: "Now all you have to do to tame the dragon is hold up
this magic ring and go like this 'come kittykittykitty'..."

Greetings,
Thorsten

--
Thorsten Michels "Auch Postangestellte sind harmlos,
michels.DeleteThis@informatik.uni-kl.de bis sie anfangen, am Computer zu
DrNethack on #awg arbeiten." (John Cage)
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norman

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Since: Jan 25, 2005
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Melting rings with dragon-fire [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>books>tolkien (more info?)

 > 1. gather a party of snobby friends
 > 2. visit an unsuspecting hobbit and coax him into travelling with you
 > 3. on the way make sure hobbit doesn't get cooked by trolls, slain by
 > orcs, eaten by wargs, dropped by eagles or shot by elves
 > 4. stop at the tunnel to the dragon's cave
 > 5. tell the hobbit: "Now all you have to do to tame the dragon is hold up
 > this magic ring and go like this 'come kittykittykitty'..."

Reminds me of a scene in a very old radio show called 'The Goon Show'. A
character called Eccles, who was not too bright, was examining the label
on a large box which he read as follows:- 'l' 'i' 'o' 'n' - pussy cat.

Norman<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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news45

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Since: Jan 28, 2005
Posts: 328



(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:40 pm
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Thorsten Michels wrote:

 > Sean <no.spam.RemoveThis@no.spam> wrote:
  >> 1. get a (very) long pair of tongs. preferably made of some
  >> kind of high temperature ceramic
  >> 2. grasp Ring in tongs
  >> 3. put on your best pair of Nikes
  >> 4. approach dragon
  >> 5. address dragon in courteous terms: "Excuse me, Sir Angalacon
  >> the Black, would you mind terribly if I asked you to breath
  >> a little bit of your fire on this trinket, the least of Rings?
  >> 6. run like stink if dragon complies (or even if he doesn't)
 >
 > 1. gather a party of snobby friends
 > 2. visit an unsuspecting hobbit and coax him into travelling with you
 > 3. on the way make sure hobbit doesn't get cooked by trolls, slain by
 > orcs, eaten by wargs, dropped by eagles or shot by elves
 > 4. stop at the tunnel to the dragon's cave
 > 5. tell the hobbit: "Now all you have to do to tame the dragon is hold up
 > this magic ring and go like this 'come kittykittykitty'..."

I don't think #3 is really fair to unsuspecting hobbits Smile. iirc, Bilbo
was the one who got the Dwarves out of all those fixes (sometimes with
Gandalf's help, and not usually intentionally)
--
derek<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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news45

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Since: Jan 28, 2005
Posts: 328



(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:59 pm
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Bruce Tucker wrote:

> One can, I think, safely assume that dragons are nowhere near 3000C
> inside, because if they were they'd melt or combust anything they
> touched - that heat has got to go *somewhere*, and a lot of it will be

While I think you're right, I'm pretty sure your reasoning is not.

>>   "It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume
>>   the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left
>>   on Earth in which the old fire is hot enough; "
>>   (_The Shadow of the Past_)

To my mind, that clearly implies that dragon's are extremely well insulated
- well enough to maintain their internal temperature over an Age or two.

> radiated no matter how well insulated the dragon is (so Smaug could
> never sleep atop a heap of coins, he'd melt right through it).

If you're going to hold that heat for thousands of years, you'd better not
leak enough to melt a heap of gold!

> Also,
> their blood, for instance Glaurung's, would be much hotter than the
> evidence indicates if they were that hot inside.

Then, the heat-holding regions are insulated even from the rest of the
dragon (which is only logical).

> It's a safer bet that,
> while they're hotter than ordinary animals inside, the fiery breath is
> a result of a chemical reaction occurring at or near the point of
> exhalation.

It's a possibility, but it seems far-fetched to me Smile That would imply
some kind of chemical breakdown over time, and still doesn't really agree
with the quotation above.

> Also, we have no reason to think the Dwarves or anyone else has the
> technology to melt iron.

I'm pretty sure we do. Did I not see smelting going on at Isengard in
Jackson's movie? He wouldn't have made that up, surely? If so, I'll have
to write a strongly worded letter...

> It's probably also safe to assume that mithril requires more than just
> extra heat to work it, as does, say, platinum, which wasn't

I don't think so. I actually got the impression that it was cold-worked -
that it was found in pure, or nearly pure, form like copper. I could be
wrong about that, but it certainly makes such assumptions risky.

> The lava of
> Orodruin may have been more than just hotter, it may have contained
> and/or outgassed unusual chemicals which lowered the melting point of
> the unique Ring alloy.

Now, _that_ is an intriguing idea. It makes sense as there's a limit to how
hot it could have got and allowed for even a small chance of Frodo, Sam and
Gollum getting in there (let alone, getting out again).
--
derek
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pvstownsend

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Since: Feb 14, 2004
Posts: 129



(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:40 pm
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Sean (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
<422D6227.FC73A67B.DeleteThis@no.spam>:

 > ps. adiabatic flame temperature of acetylene: 3160 C
 > estimated temperature of the Earth's core: 5000 C
 > flame temperature of Angalacon the Black: ???
 > typical temperature of volcanic lava: 900 to 1200 C
 > temperature of magma in Crack of Doom in Orodruin: ???

Melting point of gold of One Ring: ???

And possibly an even more important question.

Thermal capacity of gold of One Ring: ??? (remember it wasn't perceptibly
warmed after several minutes in Frodo's fireplace.

And it would need to be heated fairly quickly and kept in a hot environment
long enough to defeat the Stefan-Boltzmann fourth-power law (so it would
actually melt rather than simply radiating its heat away). If the recent
documentary on the UK Channel 4 TV station is anything to go by, dragons
have limited fire reserves and so could not achieve this - the Ring would
cool before our friendly magic dragon had enough Puff for a second blast of
flame. OTOH molten lava is the ideal environment to bring about a melt -
continuously hot.

--
Paul Townsend
Pair them off into threes

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Pete Gray

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Since: Mar 08, 2005
Posts: 13



(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:40 pm
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In article <3959f8F5tsd3cU1 RemoveThis @individual.net>, andybussey RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk
says...
 > Sean wrote:
  > > Even if dragon-fire could melt the Rings, how was one supposed
  > > to go about such a procedure? Dragons are not reputed to be
  > > among the most cooperative of creatures.
 >
 > How about:
 > 1. Dwarf wears a ring
 > 2. Dragon eats dwarf
 > 3. Therefore, dragon eats ring
 > 4. ???
 > 5. Profit!
 >
 > Andy
 >
Hmmm, but this only works to destroy a ring if:

1b. Dragon barbecues dwarf before eating.

Otherwise:

6. Refuse Disposal Orc finds ring while cleaning out dragon's lair.
--
Pete Gray

Say No to ID Cards <http://www.no2id.net>
<http://www.redbadge.co.uk/no2idcards/><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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danhenry1

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Since: Jul 22, 2004
Posts: 185



(Msg. 12) Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:42 pm
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On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:33:35 -0000, Pete Gray <news RemoveThis @redbadge.co.uk>
wrote:

 >In article <3959f8F5tsd3cU1 RemoveThis @individual.net>, andybussey RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk
 >says...
  >> Sean wrote:
   >> > Even if dragon-fire could melt the Rings, how was one supposed
   >> > to go about such a procedure? Dragons are not reputed to be
   >> > among the most cooperative of creatures.
  >>
  >> How about:
  >> 1. Dwarf wears a ring
  >> 2. Dragon eats dwarf
  >> 3. Therefore, dragon eats ring
  >> 4. ???
  >> 5. Profit!
  >>
  >> Andy
  >>
 >Hmmm, but this only works to destroy a ring if:
 >
 >1b. Dragon barbecues dwarf before eating.
 >
 >Otherwise:
 >
 >6. Refuse Disposal Orc finds ring while cleaning out dragon's lair.

Sure, but that's just an Orc, how dangerous can he be, even with the
Ring? The important thing is, nobody who could master the Ring wants
to be wearing it now (if you think you can just wash off dragon poop
with a little soap and water, you've never been near a dragon den).

R. Dan Henry
danhenry RemoveThis @inreach.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user1696

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Since: Jan 23, 2005
Posts: 7



(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:17 am
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Archived from groups: rec>arts>books>tolkien, others (more info?)

Prai Jei wrote:
> Sean (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
> <422D6227.FC73A67B.DeleteThis@no.spam>:
>
> > ps. adiabatic flame temperature of acetylene: 3160 C
> > estimated temperature of the Earth's core: 5000 C
> > flame temperature of Angalacon the Black: ???
> > typical temperature of volcanic lava: 900 to 1200 C
> > temperature of magma in Crack of Doom in Orodruin: ???
>
> Melting point of gold of One Ring: ???

Regular gold melts at Melting Point 1064 C (1338 K, 1948 F)
so any old 1200 C volcano would do. Mount Doom just happened
to be the nearest one.
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user1696

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Since: Jan 23, 2005
Posts: 7



(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:13 am
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Thorsten Michels wrote:
 >
 > 1. gather a party of snobby friends
 > 2. visit an unsuspecting hobbit and coax him into travelling with you
 > 3. on the way make sure hobbit doesn't get cooked by trolls, slain by
 > orcs, eaten by wargs, dropped by eagles or shot by elves

3a. Make sure the Hobbit finds the One Ring in the caves under the
Misty Mountains.

 > 4. stop at the tunnel to the dragon's cave

4a. Make sure that no interfering bowman from Laketown kills the
dragon before it's destroyed the ring. It is *vital* that this step
must be followed if the plan is to work.

 > 5. tell the hobbit: "Now all you have to do to tame the dragon is
hold up
 > this magic ring and go like this 'come kittykittykitty'..."

6. If this fails, go to plan "B" which involves getting the Hobbit's
nephew to drop the Ring in Mount Doom.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Andy Bussey

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Since: Feb 10, 2005
Posts: 12



(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:40 am
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Pete Gray wrote:
 > In article <3959f8F5tsd3cU1 RemoveThis @individual.net>, andybussey RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk
 > says...
 >
  >>Sean wrote:
   >> > Even if dragon-fire could melt the Rings, how was one supposed
  >>
   >>>to go about such a procedure? Dragons are not reputed to be
   >>>among the most cooperative of creatures.
  >>
  >>How about:
  >>1. Dwarf wears a ring
  >>2. Dragon eats dwarf
  >>3. Therefore, dragon eats ring
  >>4. ???
  >>5. Profit!
  >>
  >>Andy
  >>
 >
 > Hmmm, but this only works to destroy a ring if:
 >
 > 1b. Dragon barbecues dwarf before eating.
 >
 > Otherwise:
 >
 > 6. Refuse Disposal Orc finds ring while cleaning out dragon's lair.

This takes us back to the point that others were discussing - namely
whether dragon's fire comes frominside or is simply fire produced
somewhere near the mouth? I'd assumed it was in the belly so the eaten
dwarf would be barbecued. All this leads on to speculation about what a
disposal orc might find in a dragon's lair: ashes or .... I'm just
eating my lunch so I'll leave that discussion to others Smile

Andy<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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