Melting rings with dragon-fire

Sean wrote:

 > Even if dragon-fire could melt the Rings, how was one supposed
 > to go about such a procedure? Dragons are not reputed to be
 > among the most cooperative of creatures. Here's one scenario:

Speaking of which, one thing that always puzzled me is that there
really are rather few dragons in Middle-Earth. Glaurung and Smaug have
stories associated with them, but the only other one that's ever
mentioned is Ancalagon the Black, but he doesn't really enter into any
of the tales. Neither do any of the others which surely must have
existed. Where are all the dragons by the time of the Lord of the
Rings?


Bernd

Due to discovery of a dragon's lair, there is currently no good service
on the Ancalagon line.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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crux <bernds RemoveThis @btinternet.com> wrote:
 > Sean wrote:
 >
  >> Even if dragon-fire could melt the Rings, how was one supposed
  >> to go about such a procedure? Dragons are not reputed to be
  >> among the most cooperative of creatures. Here's one scenario:
 >
 > Speaking of which, one thing that always puzzled me is that there
 > really are rather few dragons in Middle-Earth. Glaurung and Smaug
 > have stories associated with them, but the only other one that's ever
 > mentioned is Ancalagon the Black

Well, if we discount the dragon firework and the Green Dragon pub...

Scatha the Worm
Smaug the Magnificent (also 'the Golden')
Ancalagon the Black
Glaurung, Father of Dragons

So yes, not many named dragons. But lots of un-named ones.

Not sure what the Were-worms are that Bilbo mentions as being East of
East in the Last Desert (An Unexpected Party, The Hobbit). 'The Hobbit'
also tells us that "the great dragons" bred on the Withered Heath.

There is also this bit from 'The Hobbit':

"There were lots of dragons in the North in those days, and gold was
probably getting scarce up there, with the dwarves flying south or
getting killed, and all the general waste and destruction that dragons
make going from bad to worse. There was a most specially greedy, strong
and wicked worm called Smaug. One day he flew up into the air and came
south."

And this is referred to again in Appendix A of LotR, when the 'history
of the dwarves after the coming of the Balrog' is described:

"But Thorin I his son removed and went into the far North to the Grey
Mountains, where most of Durin's folk were now gathering; for those
mountains were rich and little explored. But there were dragons in the
wastes beyond; and after many years they became strong again and
multiplied, and they made war on the Dwarves, and plundered their works.
At last Dain I, together with Fror his second son, was slain at the door
of his hall by a great cold-drake."

The history of Scatha the Worm is expanded upon in Appendix A, in the
tales of Rohan:

"Frumgar, they say, was the name of the chieftain who led his people to
Eotheod. Of his son, Fram, they tell that he slew Scatha, the great
dragon of Ered Mithrin, and the land had peace from the long-worms
afterwards."

In 'The Silmarillion', Glaurung is described as: "the first of the
Uruloki, the fire-drakes of the North". Also called the Great Worm and
Worm of Morgoth. Morgoth bred many dragons and used them in his wars,
though few are named. There is reference to "the brood of Glaurung", and
dragons were used in many battles: the Dagor Bragollach, the Nirnaeth
Arnoediad, and the Sack of Nargathrond and the Fall of Gondolin. In the
final battle of Beleriand, the War of Wrath, there were winged dragons,
which included Ancalagon the Black. But well-nigh all the dragons at
that battle were destroyed. Though we are told in the Akallabeth that in
the Second Age in Middle-earth, in the Dark Years:

"Men dwelt in darkness and were troubled by many evil things that
Morgoth had devised in the days of his dominion: demons, and dragons,
and misshapen beasts, and the unclean Orcs..."

 > but he doesn't really enter into any of the tales. Neither do any of
the
 > others which surely must have existed. Where are all the dragons by
 > the time of the Lord of the Rings?

See quotes above. In the Third Age they multiplied in the North and
spread and decimated the Dwarves, and then got killed. Presumably by
lots of Heros (TM).

Christopher

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"Andy Bussey" <andybussey RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3959f8F5tsd3cU1@individual.net...
 > Sean wrote:
  > > Even if dragon-fire could melt the Rings, how was one supposed
  > > to go about such a procedure? Dragons are not reputed to be
  > > among the most cooperative of creatures.
 >
 > How about:
 > 1. Dwarf wears a ring
 > 2. Dragon eats dwarf
 > 3. Therefore, dragon eats ring
 > 4. ???
 > 5. Profit!
 >
 > Andy

LOL

Am I the only one here who got the "South Park" reference? (The 'underpants
gnomes' had a three-part plan. Part 1 - steal underpants, Part 2 - ????,
Part 3 - Profit. Particularly funny episode, actually.)
On second thoughts, I've never watched South Park, I have know idea what
you're talking about. If anybody needs me, I'll be in my room reading the
complete works of Theodore Shakespeare, cause that's the kind of brainy,
cultured person I am.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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crux wrote:
 >
 > Sean wrote:
 >
  > > Even if dragon-fire could melt the Rings, how was one supposed
  > > to go about such a procedure? Dragons are not reputed to be
  > > among the most cooperative of creatures. Here's one scenario:
 >
 > Speaking of which, one thing that always puzzled me is that there
 > really are rather few dragons in Middle-Earth. ...
 > Where are all the dragons by the time of the Lord of the
 > Rings?

Gandalf says in "The Shadow of the Past" "It has been said that
dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power,
but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the
old fire is hot enough..."

I think this implies that dragons have been dwindling since
their patron Morgoth was put out of business. We have only
a few tales of heroes killing dragons, but there must have
been many more dragon killers, even into the Third Age,
given the hints in The Hobbit.

Gandalf's worry about Smaug, and what an ally Smaug might
be for Sauron, hints that Smaug is unique in his time.
But this conflicts with the description in The Hobbit
about Smaug coming from the North, which suggests that
there are more dragons in the North. Between the coming
of Smaug and his end, had all the other dragons of the
North been exterminated?

Notice that dragon-fire destroying Great Rings applies to
the Three, Seven, and Nine. Gandalf then says that the One
would be the hardest of all to destroy, and none of the dragons
would have been able to do it.

At the Council of Elrond, Elrond says "But Gandalf has revealed
to us that we cannot destroy it by any craft that we here possess,"
But Gandalf did not discuss that in his speech to the Council.
I re-read the chapter, expecting to find some explicit
information from Gandalf about melting the Ring. It's not there.
I wonder if Elrond's comment referred to a passage that
Tolkien cut for space?

After this comment, Elrond says "We must send the Ring to the
Fire." He doesn't explain how he knows that it can be destroyed
there, or that it can't be destroyed anywhere else. Obviously,
that information was distributed, but off-stage.

Since Balrogs were the original fire spirits, predating
dragons (in the First Age Balrogs are sometimes seen
herding dragons), I expect their firey power was greater
than that of dragons. Since Morgoth could create nothing
new, I expect he drew on Balrog lore when he bred the dragons.
So would Balrog fire also be able to destroy Great Rings?

The Cracks of Doom were probably augmented by Sauron,
and Sauron was greater than the Balrogs, but the Cracks were
only a creation of Sauron, as the dragons were only a reflection
of Balrog fire. Was Balrog fire greater than the Cracks?

Was the Balrog of Moria able to destroy the One Ring?
Maybe the Fellowship missed an opportunity at
Moria, and Frodo didn't have to go all the way to
Mordor after all. Yes, I know I'm ignoring some
implementation details ...

--
Glenn Holliday holliday.DeleteThis@acm.org<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"The Man With No Name" <none RemoveThis @none.com> writes:
 > Am I the only one here who got the "South Park" reference? (The 'underpants
 > gnomes' had a three-part plan. Part 1 - steal underpants, Part 2 - ????,
 > Part 3 - Profit. Particularly funny episode, actually.)

I've never seen _South Park_; to me this sounds like a Dilbert reference.
--
mailto:jjk@acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/" target="_blank">http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/</a> so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://del.icio.us/jjk" target="_blank">http://del.icio.us/jjk</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Jens Kilian" <jjk.RemoveThis@acm.org> wrote in message
news:87is3vgv5p.fsf@gondolin.bb.bawue.de...
 > "The Man With No Name" <none.RemoveThis@none.com> writes:
  > > Am I the only one here who got the "South Park" reference? (The
'underpants
  > > gnomes' had a three-part plan. Part 1 - steal underpants, Part 2 - ????,
  > > Part 3 - Profit. Particularly funny episode, actually.)
 >
 > I've never seen _South Park_; to me this sounds like a Dilbert reference.
 > --
 > mailto:jjk@acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a
fish,
 > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/" target="_blank">http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/</a> so is contempt to the contemptible.
[Blake]
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://del.icio.us/jjk</font" target="_blank">http://del.icio.us/jjk</font</a>>

LOL

I suppose that is very Dilbert-esque (but I definitely saw it in South
Park)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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As an occasional lurker / first time poster to the NG, I'd like to throw
in my two cents to this discussion...

Glenn Holliday <holliday.DeleteThis@acm.org> wrote in
news:4233BF72.8ACEC8DE@acm.org:

 > crux wrote:
[snip]
 >
 > Gandalf's worry about Smaug, and what an ally Smaug might
 > be for Sauron, hints that Smaug is unique in his time.
 > But this conflicts with the description in The Hobbit
 > about Smaug coming from the North, which suggests that
 > there are more dragons in the North. Between the coming
 > of Smaug and his end, had all the other dragons of the
 > North been exterminated?
 >
 > Notice that dragon-fire destroying Great Rings applies to
 > the Three, Seven, and Nine. Gandalf then says that the One
 > would be the hardest of all to destroy, and none of the dragons
 > would have been able to do it.
 >

 > After this comment, Elrond says "We must send the Ring to the
 > Fire." He doesn't explain how he knows that it can be destroyed
 > there, or that it can't be destroyed anywhere else. Obviously,
 > that information was distributed, but off-stage.
 >
 > Since Balrogs were the original fire spirits, predating
 > dragons (in the First Age Balrogs are sometimes seen
 > herding dragons), I expect their firey power was greater
 > than that of dragons. Since Morgoth could create nothing
 > new, I expect he drew on Balrog lore when he bred the dragons.
 > So would Balrog fire also be able to destroy Great Rings?
 >
 > The Cracks of Doom were probably augmented by Sauron,
 > and Sauron was greater than the Balrogs, but the Cracks were
 > only a creation of Sauron, as the dragons were only a reflection
 > of Balrog fire. Was Balrog fire greater than the Cracks?
 >
 > Was the Balrog of Moria able to destroy the One Ring?
 > Maybe the Fellowship missed an opportunity at
 > Moria, and Frodo didn't have to go all the way to
 > Mordor after all. Yes, I know I'm ignoring some
 > implementation details ...
 >

Personally, I doubt the Balrog would be powerful enough to destroy the
Ring. More likely, if it stumbled across the Ring, it would use it to
destroy Sauron and replace him. (Scary thought, that...) OTOH, I
suppose you could just chuck it at him and hope that it hit someplace
flaming.

My impression has always been that, if the Balrog had ever emerged from
Moria (without the Ring, of course), it would have ultimately become
subservient to Sauron; after all, Sauron had been the Number Two Force of
Evil in the world, after Morgoth. As Morgoth's one-time chief
lieutenant, it seems likely that Sauron would have ultimately been able
to enlist both the Balrog of Moria and Smaug, had either or both survived
to participate in, say, the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.


I think what I'm really getting at is that it isn't the temperature of
the fire used to consume a Ring of Power, but, more generally, what is
the relative power level of the magical / natural force applied against
the power of the Ring. And, also, with regards to the One Ring, you have
to consider that the Cracks of Doom were important to the Ring's
destruction not necessarily because Sauron enchanted them, or that they
were part of Mount Doom, or even that they were hot, but, rather, because
that was the place where the One Ring was forged.


You could probably draw things out thusly:

1) Could the One Ring be destroyed by Morgoth or any of the other Valar?
Answer - maybe not ANY Valar could destroy the Ring, but some of them --
almost certainly; Sauron was not as powerful as the least of the Valar,
but was probably more learned in smithcraft than most.

2) Could Ancalagon destroy it? Answer - maybe, but probably not. Was he
more powerful than Sauron? I personally doubt it. If Ancalagon
couldn't, than no other Dragon probably could either.

3) What about Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, had he been around? Answer -
maybe. Gothmog was the Number Three bad guy. Was he more powerful than
Sauron? I doubt it. If Gothmog couldn't destroy it, than no other
Balrog would be able to, either.

4) What if there was some other volcano sitting around somewhere? Would
that be powerful enough to destroy the Ring? (I can picture it now; a
determined and resolute Fellowship departs Rivendell, bearing enough
supplies for a Sunday picnic, heads north and east on a brief jaunt to
that little known volcano Mount Disaster on the northern end of the Misty
Mountains, and throws away a certain little hunk of gold faster than
Gollum can say "Precious". No muss, no fuss...)

Anyway, those are my thoughts.......<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 01:38:56 GMT,
Deathwish <none.RemoveThis@none.com> wrote:
 >
 > Personally, I doubt the Balrog would be powerful enough to destroy the
 > Ring. More likely, if it stumbled across the Ring, it would use it to
 > destroy Sauron and replace him. (Scary thought, that...) OTOH, I
 > suppose you could just chuck it at him and hope that it hit someplace
 > flaming.

Well, I don't think anybody was powerful enough to destroy the Ring, but I
do agree that the Balrog might very well have claimed it. Whether the
Balrog was strong enough to hold it in defiance of Sauron is another
question, of course, but in the meantime I would expect Lorien to be toast.

 >
 > My impression has always been that, if the Balrog had ever emerged from
 > Moria (without the Ring, of course), it would have ultimately become
 > subservient to Sauron; after all, Sauron had been the Number Two Force of
 > Evil in the world, after Morgoth. As Morgoth's one-time chief
 > lieutenant, it seems likely that Sauron would have ultimately been able
 > to enlist both the Balrog of Moria and Smaug, had either or both survived
 > to participate in, say, the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

I dunno. Morgoth was gone, and I'm not so sure that the old ties still
could bind. As it was, the Balrog had a safe little kingdom (until Gandalf
came along) and was doing Sauron a service (quite possibly unintentionally)
by making sure that a major enemy did not arise again in the form of
Khazad-dum reborn.

 >
 >
 > I think what I'm really getting at is that it isn't the temperature of
 > the fire used to consume a Ring of Power, but, more generally, what is
 > the relative power level of the magical / natural force applied against
 > the power of the Ring. And, also, with regards to the One Ring, you have
 > to consider that the Cracks of Doom were important to the Ring's
 > destruction not necessarily because Sauron enchanted them, or that they
 > were part of Mount Doom, or even that they were hot, but, rather, because
 > that was the place where the One Ring was forged.

I think that's a reasonable conclusion. Beyond that, even a being capable
of destroying the Ring might be entrapped by it. I often wonder if Elrond
was very unfair to Isildur. Could Elrond have stood at the Cracks of Doom
and thrown it into the Fire?

 >
 >
 > You could probably draw things out thusly:
 >
 > 1) Could the One Ring be destroyed by Morgoth or any of the other Valar?
 > Answer - maybe not ANY Valar could destroy the Ring, but some of them --
 > almost certainly; Sauron was not as powerful as the least of the Valar,
 > but was probably more learned in smithcraft than most.

Perhaps the Valar could, though it does seem odd that if that were the case,
then why wouldn't they let it come over the Sea.

 >
 > 2) Could Ancalagon destroy it? Answer - maybe, but probably not. Was he
 > more powerful than Sauron? I personally doubt it. If Ancalagon
 > couldn't, than no other Dragon probably could either.

I have my doubts that any dragon's fire could destroy the One.

 >
 > 3) What about Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, had he been around? Answer -
 > maybe. Gothmog was the Number Three bad guy. Was he more powerful than
 > Sauron? I doubt it. If Gothmog couldn't destroy it, than no other
 > Balrog would be able to, either.

Such information does not exist, and I'm not so sure that D&D-style power
comparisons are very useful when speaking of the relative powers of various
beings in Arda.

 >
 > 4) What if there was some other volcano sitting around somewhere? Would
 > that be powerful enough to destroy the Ring? (I can picture it now; a
 > determined and resolute Fellowship departs Rivendell, bearing enough
 > supplies for a Sunday picnic, heads north and east on a brief jaunt to
 > that little known volcano Mount Disaster on the northern end of the Misty
 > Mountains, and throws away a certain little hunk of gold faster than
 > Gollum can say "Precious". No muss, no fuss...)

I think it's pretty clear that there was something more to Sammath Naur than
simply lava.

 >
 > Anyway, those are my thoughts.......

Good ones, too.

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Deathwish wrote:
 >
 > As an occasional lurker / first time poster to the NG, I'd like to throw
 > in my two cents to this discussion...
 >
....
 > I think what I'm really getting at is that it isn't the temperature of
 > the fire used to consume a Ring of Power, but, more generally, what is
 > the relative power level of the magical / natural force applied against
 > the power of the Ring. And, also, with regards to the One Ring, you have
 > to consider that the Cracks of Doom were important to the Ring's
 > destruction not necessarily because Sauron enchanted them, or that they
 > were part of Mount Doom, or even that they were hot, but, rather, because
 > that was the place where the One Ring was forged.

Yes, I think you're absolutely right. Good clarification.
And I think the main point I was getting at was that fire isn't
a feature of Sauron's basic nature, while is is a feature
of the basic nature of every Balrog. That led to my speculation
that a Balrog might be, by nature, more able to melt a Great Ring
than something enchanted by Sauron. Emphasis on speculation and maybe.

 > 2) Could Ancalagon destroy it? Answer - maybe, but probably not. Was he
 > more powerful than Sauron? I personally doubt it. If Ancalagon
 > couldn't, than no other Dragon probably could either.

I think it's a question of nature rather than power. Gandalf said
no to the One Ring, probably yes for other rings.

 > 4) What if there was some other volcano sitting around somewhere? Would
 > that be powerful enough to destroy the Ring? (I can picture it now; a
 > determined and resolute Fellowship departs Rivendell, bearing enough
 > supplies for a Sunday picnic, heads north and east on a brief jaunt to
 > that little known volcano Mount Disaster on the northern end of the Misty
 > Mountains, and throws away a certain little hunk of gold faster than
 > Gollum can say "Precious". No muss, no fuss...)

Wonder if there are any remnants of Morgoth's works in the North
that would serve? If Middle-Earth is a reflection of Europe,
there should be volcanoes both to the far south and to the far north
of the Shire.

--
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