In message <news:MPG.229dceef6bdf9dbc98b652@news.individual.net>
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> spoke these staves:
>
> Sun, 18 May 2008 21:02:55 +0200 from Troels Forchhammer
> <Troels RemoveThis @ThisIsFake.invalid>:
>>
[...]
>> The fall of the Elven realms was destined whether Men came to
>> live in them or not, but I agree that the arrival of Men (or even
>> just one Man) in many cases appears to have heralded or even
>> accelerated that fall.
>
> Was it part of the original Plan? As I recall, the Valar argued
> among themselves before the invitation was issued for the Quendi
> to live in Valinor. That suggests that it was not necessarily the
> destiny of the Elves to abandon Middle-earth, at least not
> originally.
Yes, I think it was Eru's original intention that the Elves should
indeed remain in Middle-earth.
But as for what was, originally, supposed to be their eventual fate is
a good question.
Elsewhere you have already spoken of the fading of the Elves, and how
that came into the 'plan', and I agree that it is likely that this
issue is connected to the question of Middle-earth being destined to be
inherited by Men.
There's a piece in the Silm. chapter 'Of Men' (ch. 12) where Tolkien
lists the names that the Elves gave to Men:
The Atani they were named by the Eldar, the Second People;
but they called them also Hildor, the Followers, and many
other names: Apanónar, the After-born, Engwar, the Sickly,
and Fírimar, the Mortals; and they named them the Usurpers,
the Strangers, and the Inscrutable, the Self-cursed, the
Heavy-handed, the Night-fearers, the Children of the Sun.
[/The Silmarillion/ ch. 12 'Of Men']
The most interesting in this context is of course 'the Usurpers', but
the problem is of course that we don't know when this epithet was given
to Men, so it doesn't really help us (except to show that the Elves
were aware of the situtation).
> After the events of a couple of Ages, it became clear that the
> Undying lands would always be safer,
Their stay in the Undying Lands, however, was /not/ a part of the
original plan.
> but was the whole business of "fading" part of the original Plan?
> I can't remember.
I'm not sure. I'm not aware of any text that will answer it either way
-- I certainly haven't been able to find anything definite, and not for
lack of trying since your message ticked in
Based on the text in the pre-LotR 'Quenta Silmarillion', it does appear
to be fated before Men awoke:
§82 At the first rising of the Sun above the earth the
younger children of the world awoke in the land of
Hildórien in the uttermost East of Middle-earth that lies
beside the eastern sea; for measured time had come upon
earth, and the first of days, and the long awaiting was at
an end. Thereafter the vigour of the Quendi that remained
in the inner lands was lessened, and their waning was
begun; and the air of Middle-earth became heavy with the
breath of growth and mortality. [...]
[LR (HoMe 5), Part 2, VI, Ch. 7 'Of Men']
Going by this passage, the key element seems to be that 'measured time
had come upon earth'.
Though I can't really point at anything in the way of evidence, I would
guess that there are two concepts this could possibly be related to.
One is the marring of Arda -- that the fading of the Elves is should be
a result of the Marring, and that the inheritance of Middle-earth to
Men is an inevitable consequence of the fading. This would mean that it
was /not/ a part of the original conception of the Eruhíni, as we know
that the separation of the Elven fëar from their hröar due to violence
and grief was not anticipated by the Valar, and was a direct
consequence of the Marring and corruption by Melkor. The other concept
that I would like to link this to is the gift to Men. Throughout all
versions of the Ainulindalë (though perhaps more obviously so in the
BoLT version) the gift to Men of the freedom from the Music entails an
obligation and an opportunity so that 'of their operation everything
should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto
the last and smallest' (Silm) or, IMO more clearly in BoLT, where Men
are appointed a task and given a gift so that 'by reason of their
operations all things shall in shape and deed be fulfilled, and the
world that comes of the music of the Ainu be completed unto the last
and smallest.' The purpose of the gift is to allow Men to /complete/
Creation (or 'the world that comes of the Music'), and in order to
allow this this, it would seem necessary that they should in time
inherit the Earth and, as children must learn to stand alone without
parents, stand on their own without their first guides and guardians
(the Quendi).
Since the giving of this gift to Men is, in heavenly #Time [*], /after/
the speech to Melkor about no-one being able to change the Music in
Eru's despite, it would seem to me that it could very well be in
response to the Marring, so the two explanatory concepts does not need
to be mutually exclusive -- they can co-exist (and possibly even
strengthen each other). Well -- unless somebody can come up with
something better, I can at least propose it at the 'this works for me'
level
[*] I use 'heavenly #Time' to refer to that which sequentializes events
in the 'Timeless Halls' -- not the same time as in Eä, but something
that serves the same purposes there -- of enabling a distinction
between 'before', 'now' and 'after'.
<snip>
> I had also meant to bring up, as an analogy, the first meeting of
> Gandalf the White where Théoden called him "Stormcrow" and Gandalf
> retorted that just because trouble followed him it was not true
> that he created the trouble. I think this fits the Beren-Doriath
> situation quite well, and even better the Tuor-Gondolin situation.
[...]
> It's worth noting that Beren "wove Thingol's fate together with
> that of the Silmarils" only because Thingol himself put his head
> in the noose.
Precisely. Beren arriving in Doriath should, IMO, be seen as having
'accelerated' the fall of that kingdom, while Tuor's arrival in
Gondolin, IMO is more 'heralding' the fall of Gondolin. Not because
Beren, again IMO, is more morally responsible for the fall of Doriath
than is Tuor for the fall of Gondolin, but because Beren's arrival is
more directly the cause of Thingol putting his head in the noose --
awakening a desire for the Silmaril (and eventually opening Thingol's
heart so much that he later received Túrin in honour, raising him as
his own foster-son -- a bad move, though this time for the right
reasons). At the opposite end fo the scale from Tuor is Túrin who was
directly responsible for the fall of Nargothrond.
<snip>
> Thingol wasn't evil, but he was over-proud and, as Treebeard might
> have said, "hasty" -- he would have done better to listen more to
> Melian's counsel in a lot of things.
Yup.
Flieger has an interesting chapter on Beren and Thingol in /Splintered
Light/ where she investigates their actions and choices from a
viewpoint of movements towards and away from 'the light' in both its
literal and metaphorical senses. Though I'm not sure that I'd buy into
her explanation as a primary motivation (or even a conscious motive)
for Tolkien, I think her treatment is an interesting take, which can
still throw some light on the underlying trends.
<snip>
> Even Turgon ignored the advice of a Vala: what was he thinking?
[...]
> "Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came
> into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar:
> 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy
> heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in
> the West, and cometh from the Sea.'"
Turgon no doubt did come to love 'too well the work of [his own and,
presumably, others'] hands and the devices of [his] heart'. I think
that Ulmo knew full well that this would happen, but felt compelled to
warn Turgon nonetheless -- not so much in order to be able to get a dig
at Turgon when his hröa was rebuilt, but rather to prepare the way for
the important objective: the point of the whole exercise, IMO, was to
produce Eärendil, whom Huor foresaw when he covered Turgon's retreat
from the Nirnaeth Arnoediad:
But Turgon answered: 'Not long now can Gondolin be hidden;
and being discovered it must fall.'
Then Huor spoke and said: 'Yet if it stands but a little
while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves
and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death:
though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your
white walls again, from you and from me a new star shall
arise. Farewell!'
[Silm QS, ch.20 'Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad']
Would Eärendil have been born if Turgon had heeded Ulmo's warning and
fled at once? It is difficult to say, but Gondolin was definitely a
very special environment where things could happen that would have been
impossible anywhere else, and I think that Turgon's bad conscience at
not heeding Ulmo's advice helped smooth the way for Ulmo's messenger
when he asked for Idril's hand, despite being of a lesser race.
<snip & rearrange>
>> Men surely came often enough to Lindon (it was one of the safe
>> havens in Middle-earth for the faithful Númenóreans), but it was
>> also to be the last haven, the Grey Havens from which Elvendom
>> was to finally leave Middle-earth. Lindon /had/ to endure . . .
>
> On the other hand, Gil-galad himself fell as a result of his
> involvement with Men, and no king followed him.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that he fell /because/ of his
involvement with Men (at least that's how I understand your use of 'as
a result of'?), but it was definitely in connection with his strongest
involvement with Men.
> Instead of a realm, in the Third Age the Havens were little more
> than a settlement (or such is my impression).
Didn't the Elves in Lindon help the Kings of Arnor / Eriador several
times? IIRC it was the Elves who sent a ship to rescue Arvedui from the
ice bay (which sank with some palantíri), and it was from Lindon, and
with the help of the Elves there, that the Gondorian forces later
staged their counter-attack on the Witch-king (which was later
reinforced by more Elves from Rivendell). My impression is that Lindon
went into a steady decline from around midway through the Third Age --
and definitely after the wars against Angmar (where Men was again
involved very directly on both sides), so as to leave little more than
the Grey Havens at the end of the Third Age.
<snip>
>> But you forget what I would see as an extremely important example
>> -- when Tol Eressëa and Aman ceased to be as an Elven realm
>> physically present in Arda! Though not a destruction or fall in
>> the usual sense, it does, IMO, deserve to be included in this
>> list -- the loss of Aman is, I think, in some ways even more
>> grievous than the fall of Gondolin or Nargothrond.
>
> That's outside the idea I was expressing because they were not
> invited in to live there. But you're correct: Men were responsible
> for that, to be sure.
I still thing it works very well with the idea you expressed if you
expand it to include not only Elvish realms, but the presence and
influence of the elder, and in many ways superior, forces on Middle-
earth. It is all tied to the idea of Middle-earth passing on to the
dominion of Men -- a process in which Men themselvs play key roles in
heralding and accelerating the process, and occasionally of more
directly causing some of the big changes.
[Arwen lying down to die in Lórien after the death of Aragorn]
> But why do you say "withering"?
I don't really know, actually. Mostly because of the autumnal/wintery
images conjured by the passage, I suppose, but you're quite right that
this is only explicit with respect to nature; never for Arwen.
Exploring the passage itself, it has,
'But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of
her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that
she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that
comes without a star.
[LotR App. A,I(v) 'Here Follows a Part of the Tale of Aragorn and
Arwen']
I know that the 'cold and grey as nightfall in winter' refers to Arwen
losing her will to live, but it still evokes a sense of seasonal
withering, of nature dying out in fall and winter.
Then she said farewell [...], and to all whom she had loved;
[...] and passed away to the land of Lórien,
[ibid.]
This sense of withering and dying is, to my ears, emphasized by the
choice of words here -- passing away normally has other connotations
(and of course this only becomes even stronger when one recalls the
Valinorean realm of Lórien, though this was of course completely
unknown to the original readers of LotR).
and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter
came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone,
and the land was silent.
[ibid.]
Fading, loneliness and silence -- what more can you ask?
'There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but
spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon
Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world
is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly
forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil
bloom no more east of the Sea.
[ibid.]
The sense of withering and fading is extremely strong here, though, as
said above, I quite agree that it is only applied explicitly to the
land, not to Arwen. It sets the tone of her death, of course, but that
might well be intended to apply to the general situation, to her will
to live, to the memory of the Third Age, to the influence of elvishness
on the age of Men etc. I just expanded the application of the metaphor
to apply also to Arwen more directly, though upon re-reading I'd agree
that it is questionable whether that is really justified.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was
standing on the shoulders of giants.
- Sir Isaac Newton
>> Stay informed about: Men as troublemakers 
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