Merlin - use of advanced tech

Brian McDonald wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 23:01:45 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
> wrote:
>
>
>> To some limited degree but not to a large degree as in Merlin can hand
>> them a lot of key discoveries on a platter.
>>
>> If the Romans had come up with cheap paper and the printing press at
>> about the time of Augustus they might have had the industrial revolution
>> then. They got awfully close as it was. Some of their water wheels and
>> such were extremely advanced.
>>
>> I'd say another key discovery would have been better smelters. Don't get
>> confused here. The Romans could have made all of the above if they had
>> known how.
>>
>> Of course the wrong government policies can put the breaks on things
>> anyway. It did in China.They actually had all of the above way before
>> the west did.
>>
>
> the safeholders have a problem. lets say merlin gives them bessemer
> smelters, the knowledge of how to alloy steel correctly and then tells
> them all about the wonders of steam engines and rail cars. how long
> does it take them to actually build a rail network based on that
> knowledge? tens of thousands of rail cars and engines to manufacture
> along with literally megatonnes of rails for a world wide network.
>
> even something simple like telegraph lines would be something of a
> feat as copper isn't the most common of metals and you need a lot of
> it to put up a worthwhile network.
>
> even with nimue smoothing the way as much as she can there is an awful
> lot of sweat equity to build up along the way.

I'm not suggesting they could do it in the blink of an eye. I'm
suggesting they could do it in less than 300 years because we did
without a Merlin.

Three hundred years ago in 1709 much of the Earth's population was more
primitive than what is reported on this new earth. Many people were
still in the stone age in most of North and South America except for the
metal tools picked up in trade. Much of Africa was in the early iron
age or stone age. Most people were still very much in the iron age.
Steel was uncommon. Any steam engines were crude beyond words. Not one
inch of copper wire had been strung nor one foot of train track laid. I
think there were some wooden tracks being used in mines. People or short
stout ponies were used to move ore carts.

Unless you know something I don't 300 years should be more than fast
enough for Merlin. It isn't like Merlin is going to die of old age.
 >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech 

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 00:34:46 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
wrote:


>
>I'm not suggesting they could do it in the blink of an eye. I'm
>suggesting they could do it in less than 300 years because we did
>without a Merlin.
>
>Three hundred years ago in 1709 much of the Earth's population was more
>primitive than what is reported on this new earth. Many people were
>still in the stone age in most of North and South America except for the
>metal tools picked up in trade. Much of Africa was in the early iron
>age or stone age. Most people were still very much in the iron age.
>Steel was uncommon. Any steam engines were crude beyond words. Not one
>inch of copper wire had been strung nor one foot of train track laid. I
>think there were some wooden tracks being used in mines. People or short
>stout ponies were used to move ore carts.
>
>Unless you know something I don't 300 years should be more than fast
>enough for Merlin. It isn't like Merlin is going to die of old age.


couple things about this. first while we have made fairly good
progress in the last 3 centuries but that progress has left a major
chunk of the worlds population not particularly better off in many
ways than their ancestors in 1709. a great many people out there will
never own a cellphone or use the internet nor do they have even the
slightest hope of owning a car. nimue is going to have to do a far
better job of overcoming humanity's selfishness if she wants to
maximize the output of her new world. the wiki pegs the general
safehold tech level as 13th century equivalent.

nimue is also not trying to replicate the last 300 odd years of
progress she's shooting for 500 or 600 years worth. i don't have the
book handy and searching the net hasn't produced any sample chapters
but it's hard to figure humans building a largish network of colonies
in under 3 400 years even being charitable about the rate of tech
progression.

even if she gets safehold to the same tech level as her society was at
that's still not nearly enough to actually win a war with the gbaba.
you have to remember that a bunch of worlds of that tech level lost to
the gbaba hordes and safehold is all on it's own. she will need to
push safehold well past her own society's tech levels in order to win.
the good thing is that she is a pica and can wait around for things to
grind along.
 >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech 

Brian McDonald wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 00:34:46 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
> wrote:
>
>
>> I'm not suggesting they could do it in the blink of an eye. I'm
>> suggesting they could do it in less than 300 years because we did
>> without a Merlin.
>>
>> Three hundred years ago in 1709 much of the Earth's population was more
>> primitive than what is reported on this new earth. Many people were
>> still in the stone age in most of North and South America except for the
>> metal tools picked up in trade. Much of Africa was in the early iron
>> age or stone age. Most people were still very much in the iron age.
>> Steel was uncommon. Any steam engines were crude beyond words. Not one
>> inch of copper wire had been strung nor one foot of train track laid. I
>> think there were some wooden tracks being used in mines. People or short
>> stout ponies were used to move ore carts.
>>
>> Unless you know something I don't 300 years should be more than fast
>> enough for Merlin. It isn't like Merlin is going to die of old age.
>
>
> couple things about this. first while we have made fairly good
> progress in the last 3 centuries but that progress has left a major
> chunk of the worlds population not particularly better off in many
> ways than their ancestors in 1709. a great many people out there will
> never own a cellphone or use the internet nor do they have even the
> slightest hope of owning a car. nimue is going to have to do a far
> better job of overcoming humanity's selfishness if she wants to
> maximize the output of her new world. the wiki pegs the general
> safehold tech level as 13th century equivalent.
>
> nimue is also not trying to replicate the last 300 odd years of
> progress she's shooting for 500 or 600 years worth. i don't have the
> book handy and searching the net hasn't produced any sample chapters
> but it's hard to figure humans building a largish network of colonies
> in under 3 400 years even being charitable about the rate of tech
> progression.
>
> even if she gets safehold to the same tech level as her society was at
> that's still not nearly enough to actually win a war with the gbaba.
> you have to remember that a bunch of worlds of that tech level lost to
> the gbaba hordes and safehold is all on it's own. she will need to
> push safehold well past her own society's tech levels in order to win.
> the good thing is that she is a pica and can wait around for things to
> grind along.

The rate of tech progress before 1709 was by and large dead slow. An
Ancient Egyptian, Roman, or Greek would not have had any trouble
understanding it. In other words feeding your 1300s people what they
need to get to 1700 or beyond in a generation or so would not be all
that hard but expecting it to be a uniform process is hopeless.

You are not going to have uniform tech development so forget it. You
select locations that are willing to innovate and go with them. The
others will follow or not. At some point somebody will decide to adopt
newer tech or they will be displaced by those who do.

To misquote Jefferson, Those who refuse to beat their spears into
muskets will become the servants of those that do.

Expanding to the stars and creating a Confederation is going to take a
lot of time but this is mainly because you, me, and Weber are going to
want to do so with humans.
 >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech 

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:16 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
wrote:

>Brian McDonald wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:56:55 -0800, Diana
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> we've already dismissed using a natural disease vector because it can
>>>> so easily explode out of control.
>>>> would you form antibodies to a targeted nanomachine attack at all?
>>>> even if you did how would the hypothetical future generation even
>>>> recognize the antibody if they've never seen the original bug? that's
>>>> also making a fairly big assumption than the antibodies have been
>>>> passed along for that many generations. nature tends to eliminate
>>>> excess baggage along the way after all.
>>> And how on earth could you eliminate all traces of nanomachinery so
>>> that there would be, gauranteed, no chance of it being detected in the
>>> future---especially since the technology developed in the future is
>>> the same one that made the machinery? (has to be; Nimue couldn't guide
>>> any other kind.)
>>
>> you put several say 4 to 6 self destructs into the nanomachine so that
>> it self destructs after X many replications. then you have another
>> nano machine whose sole purpose is to destroy any imperfect versions
>> of the first nanomachine that don't self destruct. the odds of any of
>> the first nanomachines surviving their best by date is pretty slim
>> given they are only supposed to last a few days. the odds of
>> corrupting that many self destructs in such a short time are pretty
>> negligible and you can use the 2nd machine if anyone not on your
>> target list comes down ill.
>>
>> life doesn't hand out guarantees only odds. the odds of their being
>> any leftover nanites for anyone to find a century or so down the road
>> would be low enough to be inconsequential.
>>
>> nimue has the ability to not only spy on her enemies planning but to
>> methodically prune the enemy command structure. she doesn't need to
>> kill very many of them just to nip out the sufficiently above average.
>> nothing quite like cultivating mediocrity in your enemy after all.
>> she also can exacerbate in fighting in the political/command groups.
>>
>>
>
>Why kill them when you can have a fake insect inject them a toxin that
>will cause them to need to be replaced? They could be blind. They could
>have gout. They could be crazy. Dementia covers a host of ills.
>
>You could make their immune system go after one or more of their body
>systems causing diabetes, arthritis, lupus, asthma, or a host of other
>completely natural health problems. You don't even need to give
>everybody the same ailment.

dwight i'm a merciful soul given the option. i see no reason to make
them suffer. also at the command level you are pruning a fair number
of those ailments will not stop them from functioning.
 >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech 

Brian McDonald wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:16 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
> wrote:
>
>> Brian McDonald wrote:
>>> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:56:55 -0800, Diana
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> we've already dismissed using a natural disease vector because it can
>>>>> so easily explode out of control.
>>>>> would you form antibodies to a targeted nanomachine attack at all?
>>>>> even if you did how would the hypothetical future generation even
>>>>> recognize the antibody if they've never seen the original bug? that's
>>>>> also making a fairly big assumption than the antibodies have been
>>>>> passed along for that many generations. nature tends to eliminate
>>>>> excess baggage along the way after all.
>>>> And how on earth could you eliminate all traces of nanomachinery so
>>>> that there would be, gauranteed, no chance of it being detected in the
>>>> future---especially since the technology developed in the future is
>>>> the same one that made the machinery? (has to be; Nimue couldn't guide
>>>> any other kind.)
>>> you put several say 4 to 6 self destructs into the nanomachine so that
>>> it self destructs after X many replications. then you have another
>>> nano machine whose sole purpose is to destroy any imperfect versions
>>> of the first nanomachine that don't self destruct. the odds of any of
>>> the first nanomachines surviving their best by date is pretty slim
>>> given they are only supposed to last a few days. the odds of
>>> corrupting that many self destructs in such a short time are pretty
>>> negligible and you can use the 2nd machine if anyone not on your
>>> target list comes down ill.
>>>
>>> life doesn't hand out guarantees only odds. the odds of their being
>>> any leftover nanites for anyone to find a century or so down the road
>>> would be low enough to be inconsequential.
>>>
>>> nimue has the ability to not only spy on her enemies planning but to
>>> methodically prune the enemy command structure. she doesn't need to
>>> kill very many of them just to nip out the sufficiently above average.
>>> nothing quite like cultivating mediocrity in your enemy after all.
>>> she also can exacerbate in fighting in the political/command groups.
>>>
>>>
>> Why kill them when you can have a fake insect inject them a toxin that
>> will cause them to need to be replaced? They could be blind. They could
>> have gout. They could be crazy. Dementia covers a host of ills.
>>
>> You could make their immune system go after one or more of their body
>> systems causing diabetes, arthritis, lupus, asthma, or a host of other
>> completely natural health problems. You don't even need to give
>> everybody the same ailment.
>
> dwight i'm a merciful soul given the option. i see no reason to make
> them suffer. also at the command level you are pruning a fair number
> of those ailments will not stop them from functioning.

Kill the head and no organization.
 >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech 

On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:21:09 -0500, "Dwight E. Howell"
wrote:


>>> You could make their immune system go after one or more of their body
>>> systems causing diabetes, arthritis, lupus, asthma, or a host of other
>>> completely natural health problems. You don't even need to give
>>> everybody the same ailment.
>>
>> dwight i'm a merciful soul given the option. i see no reason to make
>> them suffer. also at the command level you are pruning a fair number
>> of those ailments will not stop them from functioning.
>
>Kill the head and no organization.

i agree with the principle. but diabetes, arthritis, lupus asthma etc
don't kill the head they make it miserable and cranky. well they kill
but not fast enough.

hmm wonder if you could induce paranoia that way somehow? that would
be fairly effective at diverting them into wasting their time
wholesale.
 >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech 

Brian McDonald wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:21:09 -0500, "Dwight E. Howell"
> wrote:
>
>
>>>> You could make their immune system go after one or more of their body
>>>> systems causing diabetes, arthritis, lupus, asthma, or a host of other
>>>> completely natural health problems. You don't even need to give
>>>> everybody the same ailment.
>>> dwight i'm a merciful soul given the option. i see no reason to make
>>> them suffer. also at the command level you are pruning a fair number
>>> of those ailments will not stop them from functioning.
>> Kill the head and no organization.
>
> i agree with the principle. but diabetes, arthritis, lupus asthma etc
> don't kill the head they make it miserable and cranky. well they kill
> but not fast enough.
>
> hmm wonder if you could induce paranoia that way somehow? that would
> be fairly effective at diverting them into wasting their time
> wholesale.

Sure.

People also have inhibition control centers which prevent them from
acting on impulse. Damage those...


If you kill some one they can be replaced.

If you render them unfit for duty for any reason especially mental
problems and they aren't or can't be replaced...Things are going to come
apart and they may well end up fighting among themselves.
 >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech 

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:16 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
wrote:

>Brian McDonald wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:56:55 -0800, Diana
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> we've already dismissed using a natural disease vector because it can
>>>> so easily explode out of control.
>>>> would you form antibodies to a targeted nanomachine attack at all?
>>>> even if you did how would the hypothetical future generation even
>>>> recognize the antibody if they've never seen the original bug? that's
>>>> also making a fairly big assumption than the antibodies have been
>>>> passed along for that many generations. nature tends to eliminate
>>>> excess baggage along the way after all.
>>> And how on earth could you eliminate all traces of nanomachinery so
>>> that there would be, gauranteed, no chance of it being detected in the
>>> future---especially since the technology developed in the future is
>>> the same one that made the machinery? (has to be; Nimue couldn't guide
>>> any other kind.)
>>
>> you put several say 4 to 6 self destructs into the nanomachine so that
>> it self destructs after X many replications. then you have another
>> nano machine whose sole purpose is to destroy any imperfect versions
>> of the first nanomachine that don't self destruct. the odds of any of
>> the first nanomachines surviving their best by date is pretty slim
>> given they are only supposed to last a few days. the odds of
>> corrupting that many self destructs in such a short time are pretty
>> negligible and you can use the 2nd machine if anyone not on your
>> target list comes down ill.
>>
>> life doesn't hand out guarantees only odds. the odds of their being
>> any leftover nanites for anyone to find a century or so down the road
>> would be low enough to be inconsequential.
>>
>> nimue has the ability to not only spy on her enemies planning but to
>> methodically prune the enemy command structure. she doesn't need to
>> kill very many of them just to nip out the sufficiently above average.
>> nothing quite like cultivating mediocrity in your enemy after all.
>> she also can exacerbate in fighting in the political/command groups.
>>
>>
>
>Why kill them when you can have a fake insect inject them a toxin that
>will cause them to need to be replaced? They could be blind. They could
>have gout. They could be crazy. Dementia covers a host of ills.
>
>You could make their immune system go after one or more of their body
>systems causing diabetes, arthritis, lupus, asthma, or a host of other
>completely natural health problems. You don't even need to give
>everybody the same ailment.

at the command level you are pruning many of these ailments are not
going to remove the people you want to remove. they will have a lower
quality of life but that's not what you are after.
 >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech 

On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:38:42 -0500, "Dwight E. Howell"
wrote:


>
>People also have inhibition control centers which prevent them from
>acting on impulse. Damage those...
>
>
>If you kill some one they can be replaced.
>
>If you render them unfit for duty for any reason especially mental
>problems and they aren't or can't be replaced...Things are going to come
>apart and they may well end up fighting among themselves.

i'm guessing that "sir you are being relieved of command for medical
reasons" is not going to be taken well by the seriously paranoid guy
at all. and given how much of the command structure is essentially
feudal it could get quite messy in a hurry.

suppressing the inhibition centres is going to do wonders for what
discipline there is. that however i'd try to hit some of the rankers
with. should endear the army no end to whoever is garrisoning them.
 >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech 

Brian McDonald wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:38:42 -0500, "Dwight E. Howell"
> wrote:
>
>
>> People also have inhibition control centers which prevent them from
>> acting on impulse. Damage those...
>>
>>
>> If you kill some one they can be replaced.
>>
>> If you render them unfit for duty for any reason especially mental
>> problems and they aren't or can't be replaced...Things are going to come
>> apart and they may well end up fighting among themselves.
>
> i'm guessing that "sir you are being relieved of command for medical
> reasons" is not going to be taken well by the seriously paranoid guy
> at all. and given how much of the command structure is essentially
> feudal it could get quite messy in a hurry.
>
> suppressing the inhibition centres is going to do wonders for what
> discipline there is. that however i'd try to hit some of the rankers
> with. should endear the army no end to whoever is garrisoning them.

No doubt.
 >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech