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External
Since: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 428
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(Msg. 91) Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Merlin - use of advanced tech [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>david-weber (more info?)
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On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 10:43:02 -0800, Brian McDonald
wrote:
>On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 10:32:09 -0800, Loren Pechtel
> wrote:
>
>
>>>If the colonist can go high tech taking out the ETs is an option but I
>>>don't see how they can get past the high tech guard dog in the form of
>>>the colony ship if the guard dog was programmed by somebody with a
>>>working brain.
>>
>>Stealth stuff can get into space.
>
>uhm how do you build stealth stuff without an industrial base? the
>orbiting ship is going to bomb the snerk out of the planet way before
>they get to the point of building disintegrating totem poles much less
>stealth stuff.
Merlin can do it.
Furthermore, she knows what's going on, she can shield the production
facilities. A faraday cage inside a cave should do it. |
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External
Since: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 136
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(Msg. 92) Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Merlin - use of advanced tech [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Loren Pechtel wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 23:11:09 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
> wrote:
>
>> First you need to be able to get off the freaking planet. If you can't
>> get off the planet you can't do anything about the colony ship. The
>> colony ship can always put the people on the planet back into the iron
>> age as long as it is working. There is nothing the people on the planet
>> can do to prevent it or do anything to damage the ship unless they have
>> a tech level that would be far beyond the point that any sane trip line
>> on how advanced the local tech can be before being regressed is passed
>> and the ship AI decides to take action.
>
> Yeah--I am assuming that they get off the planet. Until then, nothing
> can happen. In time I think they can take out the orbital stuff.
>
>> If the colonist can go high tech taking out the ETs is an option but I
>> don't see how they can get past the high tech guard dog in the form of
>> the colony ship if the guard dog was programmed by somebody with a
>> working brain.
>
> Stealth stuff can get into space.
Unless the T-2 robot makes it in her super secret lab this isn't going
to happen because to high a tech base should be showing and death should
rain from on high.
That to me is the obvious catch 22 in the story line. In order to do
certain things a certain level of tech has to be available to the
locals. That level of tech is going to be a basic part of their culture.
You really can't hide it from an eye in the sky so big brother should
know and have plenty of time to act unless the people programing it were
completely brain dead.
I don't see any credible way around it. What you are left with are non
credible options.
Unless the good guys planted bombs or Trojans that can take out the
colony ship the people on the ground shouldn't have the chance of a snow
flake in a Blue Giant Star of ever being able to defeat it. That should
pretty much end that story line.
If such were planted the logical thing to have done was to take out the
colony ship _then_ activate the robot.
That would have left you with Merlin up against some anti Merlins and
that would have been a credible story line.
To restate you want the good guys up against strong odds but if their
position is truly impossible...That isn't so good and this ought to be
absolutely impossible as presented. |
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External
Since: Oct 03, 2004
Posts: 80
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(Msg. 93) Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Merlin - use of advanced tech [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article ,
"Dwight E. Howell" wrote:
> Loren Pechtel wrote:
> > On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 23:11:09 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
> > wrote:
> >
> >> First you need to be able to get off the freaking planet. If you can't
> >> get off the planet you can't do anything about the colony ship. The
> >> colony ship can always put the people on the planet back into the iron
> >> age as long as it is working. There is nothing the people on the planet
> >> can do to prevent it or do anything to damage the ship unless they have
> >> a tech level that would be far beyond the point that any sane trip line
> >> on how advanced the local tech can be before being regressed is passed
> >> and the ship AI decides to take action.
> >
> > Yeah--I am assuming that they get off the planet. Until then, nothing
> > can happen. In time I think they can take out the orbital stuff.
> >
> >> If the colonist can go high tech taking out the ETs is an option but I
> >> don't see how they can get past the high tech guard dog in the form of
> >> the colony ship if the guard dog was programmed by somebody with a
> >> working brain.
> >
> > Stealth stuff can get into space.
>
> Unless the T-2 robot makes it in her super secret lab this isn't going
> to happen because to high a tech base should be showing and death should
> rain from on high.
>
>
> That to me is the obvious catch 22 in the story line. In order to do
> certain things a certain level of tech has to be available to the
> locals. That level of tech is going to be a basic part of their culture.
> You really can't hide it from an eye in the sky so big brother should
> know and have plenty of time to act unless the people programing it were
> completely brain dead.
>
> I don't see any credible way around it. What you are left with are non
> credible options.
>
> Unless the good guys planted bombs or Trojans that can take out the
> colony ship the people on the ground shouldn't have the chance of a snow
> flake in a Blue Giant Star of ever being able to defeat it. That should
> pretty much end that story line.
>
What colony ship? (at least I thought your posts were on the
Safehold series).
--
Robert Woodward
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw> >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech |
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Since: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 136
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(Msg. 94) Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Merlin - use of advanced tech [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Diana wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 22:53:09 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
> wrote:
>
> <anip to here>
>
>>> I am reminded about my friend who installed firewall after protective
>>> coding after virus protection, and was thus completely convinced that
>>> his data was completely safe from anything anybody could throw at him.
>>>
>>> Until his five year old decided to see if Daddy's computer would make
>>> a good T-ball stand.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> At no time have I ever suggested by thought, word or deed that I thought
>> the world was in any wise a safe place.
>>
>
> That wasn't the point I was attempting to make.
> The point I was making is that sometimes we get so involved in high
> technology that we forget the power of a good swift kick....or ...
>
> I heard one of the best lines on a TV show this last week; It's one of
> the new shows this season, and my brian has just fried. Can't remember
> the name. ANY way, the hero is a scientist/genious type who can't
> shoot...and his sidekick is a gorgeious blond who packs a punch and
> shoots very well indeed. They were confronted by a very sophisticated
> lock, and she said to him, obviously expecting somme razzledazzle,
> "what are you goin to do about this?
>
> He said "I'm a scientist, not McGiver. Shoot the lock."
>
> Sometimes low tech can do a better job than you'd think.
>
>> On the contrary everybody is doomed from the moment of conception.
>>
>> Weber by choice tries not to be predictable. He also telegraphs some
>> things about his major characters by name selection. Merlin says a lot.
>> He might not follow through with it for one reason or another but don't
>> discount it.
>
> Remember, Merlin is also Nimue.
# The Lady of the Lake is the name of several related characters who
play integral parts in the Arthurian legend. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimue
# (Lady of the Lake): Mistress of the forest of Broceliande. Mother of
Merlin and Brisen. Sometimes said to be the nursemaid of Lancelot. ...
web.sbu.edu/friedsam/inklings/taliessin_terms.htm
And not the leader.
What do they all have in common? They are all powerful supporting
characters. >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech |
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Since: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 136
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(Msg. 95) Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Merlin - use of advanced tech [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Loren Pechtel wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 10:43:02 -0800, Brian McDonald
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 10:32:09 -0800, Loren Pechtel
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> If the colonist can go high tech taking out the ETs is an option but I
>>>> don't see how they can get past the high tech guard dog in the form of
>>>> the colony ship if the guard dog was programmed by somebody with a
>>>> working brain.
>>> Stealth stuff can get into space.
>> uhm how do you build stealth stuff without an industrial base? the
>> orbiting ship is going to bomb the snerk out of the planet way before
>> they get to the point of building disintegrating totem poles much less
>> stealth stuff.
>
> Merlin can do it.
>
> Furthermore, she knows what's going on, she can shield the production
> facilities. A faraday cage inside a cave should do it.
She is going to have to have a blue print in place. This would need to
work the first time. Unless she does it with nano tech using the stuff
she is made off you are going to need a very, very, large industrial
base hidden underground. Something like a major city. Then you have the
issue of how do you power this thing; the city and the machine.
I thought lasers might be a better bet but you still need a power source
with a moderate sized city.
In other words it pretty much drops back down to the author waves his
hand and low and behold it happens. >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech |
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Since: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 428
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(Msg. 96) Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Merlin - use of advanced tech [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 23:36:08 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
wrote:
>Loren Pechtel wrote:
>> On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 10:43:02 -0800, Brian McDonald
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 10:32:09 -0800, Loren Pechtel
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> If the colonist can go high tech taking out the ETs is an option but I
>>>>> don't see how they can get past the high tech guard dog in the form of
>>>>> the colony ship if the guard dog was programmed by somebody with a
>>>>> working brain.
>>>> Stealth stuff can get into space.
>>> uhm how do you build stealth stuff without an industrial base? the
>>> orbiting ship is going to bomb the snerk out of the planet way before
>>> they get to the point of building disintegrating totem poles much less
>>> stealth stuff.
>>
>> Merlin can do it.
>>
>> Furthermore, she knows what's going on, she can shield the production
>> facilities. A faraday cage inside a cave should do it.
>
>
>She is going to have to have a blue print in place. This would need to
>work the first time. Unless she does it with nano tech using the stuff
>she is made off you are going to need a very, very, large industrial
>base hidden underground. Something like a major city. Then you have the
>issue of how do you power this thing; the city and the machine.
>
>I thought lasers might be a better bet but you still need a power source
>with a moderate sized city.
>
>In other words it pretty much drops back down to the author waves his
>hand and low and behold it happens.
And why can't she do it with nanotech? If it was at all possible to
do she would have been given the ability to boostrap. The only reason
she might not have that is if the plotters couldn't lay their hands on
it. >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech |
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Since: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 428
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(Msg. 97) Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Merlin - use of advanced tech [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 23:08:06 -0800, "Robert A. Woodward"
wrote:
>What colony ship? (at least I thought your posts were on the
>Safehold series).
The ship that brought them.
I don't know if that's where the bombardment weapon is mounted,
though. Wherever it's mounted, the issue is taking out the weapon so
anything high-tech won't be smashed. >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech |
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Since: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 428
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(Msg. 98) Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Merlin - use of advanced tech [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 23:24:46 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
wrote:
>> Stealth stuff can get into space.
>
>Unless the T-2 robot makes it in her super secret lab this isn't going
>to happen because to high a tech base should be showing and death should
>rain from on high.
She has already demonstrated the ability to get into space.
>That to me is the obvious catch 22 in the story line. In order to do
>certain things a certain level of tech has to be available to the
>locals. That level of tech is going to be a basic part of their culture.
>You really can't hide it from an eye in the sky so big brother should
>know and have plenty of time to act unless the people programing it were
>completely brain dead.
If you understand the limitations it would be possible to develop
tech. Everything has to be faraday-shielded. On their own this would
be *VERY* hard to develop, it would take blind luck. However, with
her help it's not impossible. >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech |
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Since: Oct 03, 2004
Posts: 80
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(Msg. 99) Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Merlin - use of advanced tech [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article ,
Loren Pechtel wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 23:08:06 -0800, "Robert A. Woodward"
> wrote:
>
> >What colony ship? (at least I thought your posts were on the
> >Safehold series).
>
> The ship that brought them.
I believe that the ships that brought the colonists were dumped
into the sun.
>
> I don't know if that's where the bombardment weapon is mounted,
> though. Wherever it's mounted, the issue is taking out the weapon so
> anything high-tech won't be smashed.
Wasn't the bombardment weapon described as being based on a bunch
of satellites?
--
Robert Woodward
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw> >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech |
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Since: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 299
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(Msg. 100) Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Merlin - use of advanced tech [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 16:54:39 -0800, Loren Pechtel
wrote:
>On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 10:43:02 -0800, Brian McDonald
> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 10:32:09 -0800, Loren Pechtel
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>If the colonist can go high tech taking out the ETs is an option but I
>>>>don't see how they can get past the high tech guard dog in the form of
>>>>the colony ship if the guard dog was programmed by somebody with a
>>>>working brain.
>>>
>>>Stealth stuff can get into space.
>>
>>uhm how do you build stealth stuff without an industrial base? the
>>orbiting ship is going to bomb the snerk out of the planet way before
>>they get to the point of building disintegrating totem poles much less
>>stealth stuff.
>
>Merlin can do it.
>
>Furthermore, she knows what's going on, she can shield the production
>facilities. A faraday cage inside a cave should do it.
i am inclined to think you are overestimating nimue's capacity to
build something that complex and powerful. imagine the fun if you
needed to build an f 117 from scratch in a cave inside a faraday cage.
sure you have a complete set of plans but if you have to build each
item that goes into the f 117 you are going to be there for a very
very long time. >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech |
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Since: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 299
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(Msg. 101) Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Merlin - use of advanced tech [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 16:20:30 -0800, Loren Pechtel
wrote:
>>>
>>> Merlin can do it.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, she knows what's going on, she can shield the production
>>> facilities. A faraday cage inside a cave should do it.
>>
>>
>>She is going to have to have a blue print in place. This would need to
>>work the first time. Unless she does it with nano tech using the stuff
>>she is made off you are going to need a very, very, large industrial
>>base hidden underground. Something like a major city. Then you have the
>>issue of how do you power this thing; the city and the machine.
>>
>>I thought lasers might be a better bet but you still need a power source
>>with a moderate sized city.
>>
>>In other words it pretty much drops back down to the author waves his
>>hand and low and behold it happens.
>
>And why can't she do it with nanotech? If it was at all possible to
>do she would have been given the ability to boostrap. The only reason
>she might not have that is if the plotters couldn't lay their hands on
>it.
she has to build something sneaky enough to get close to a state of
the art warship on high alert and then powerful enough to destroy the
warship in one fell swoop.
at a guess the folks running the setup had a way to shut down the
warship in orbit or at least tell it not to shoot at the planet.
whether or not the current crop of bosses understand what they have or
even know it exists it will be there if nimue can find it. >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech |
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Since: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 428
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(Msg. 102) Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Merlin - use of advanced tech [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 19:39:12 -0800, Brian McDonald
wrote:
>i am inclined to think you are overestimating nimue's capacity to
>build something that complex and powerful. imagine the fun if you
>needed to build an f 117 from scratch in a cave inside a faraday cage.
>sure you have a complete set of plans but if you have to build each
>item that goes into the f 117 you are going to be there for a very
>very long time.
Boostrapping technology is going to be slow no matter what.
Note that it doesn't all need to be done in the same cave. Objects
without power can be freely shipped around between production
facilities. It's only the use that must be hidden. >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech |
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Since: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 428
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(Msg. 103) Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Merlin - use of advanced tech [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 19:43:27 -0800, Brian McDonald
wrote:
>she has to build something sneaky enough to get close to a state of
>the art warship on high alert and then powerful enough to destroy the
>warship in one fell swoop.
State of the art warship?? I don't think what she's after is anything
like that nasty.
Furthermore, I'm thinking of taking it out by a ballistic object that
is originally aimed to miss.
Finally, there's no requirement to take it out in one fell swoop. A
failure at worst means the tactic used won't work anymore--the ship
isn't going to retaliate. Depending on what the AI is like it might
be possible to repeat the tactic even.
>at a guess the folks running the setup had a way to shut down the
>warship in orbit or at least tell it not to shoot at the planet.
>whether or not the current crop of bosses understand what they have or
>even know it exists it will be there if nimue can find it.
I doubt anyone knows it. >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech |
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Since: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 299
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(Msg. 104) Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Merlin - use of advanced tech [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 13:45:33 -0800, Loren Pechtel
wrote:
>On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 19:43:27 -0800, Brian McDonald
> wrote:
>
>>she has to build something sneaky enough to get close to a state of
>>the art warship on high alert and then powerful enough to destroy the
>>warship in one fell swoop.
>
>State of the art warship?? I don't think what she's after is anything
>like that nasty.
>
>Furthermore, I'm thinking of taking it out by a ballistic object that
>is originally aimed to miss.
>
>Finally, there's no requirement to take it out in one fell swoop. A
>failure at worst means the tactic used won't work anymore--the ship
>isn't going to retaliate. Depending on what the AI is like it might
>be possible to repeat the tactic even.
>
given the sophistication of the computer that thinks it's nimue i'd
really hate to be making any assumptions about what the AI above will
or won't do after an attack on it. if it cannot id the source of the
attack it could very well pound the planet in general back to hunter
gatherer status on the theory that means it gets the villains who
attacked it. remember the the godawfully powerful computer that runs
Nimue was available as pricey personal recreation. you have to figure
the military would have access to at least as good hardware nor i
think would they have stinted on these expeditions in any way.
i don't remember if the death from the sky fell from a ship or as
another posted some kind of disguised sattelites. if it's a dispersed
group of sattelites the problem's complexity dramatically escalates.
the important thing is that the attack absolutely must preclude any
response by the AI. >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech |
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Since: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 136
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(Msg. 105) Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Merlin - use of advanced tech [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Robert A. Woodward wrote:
> In article ,
> "Dwight E. Howell" wrote:
>
>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>> On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 23:11:09 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> First you need to be able to get off the freaking planet. If you can't
>>>> get off the planet you can't do anything about the colony ship. The
>>>> colony ship can always put the people on the planet back into the iron
>>>> age as long as it is working. There is nothing the people on the planet
>>>> can do to prevent it or do anything to damage the ship unless they have
>>>> a tech level that would be far beyond the point that any sane trip line
>>>> on how advanced the local tech can be before being regressed is passed
>>>> and the ship AI decides to take action.
>>> Yeah--I am assuming that they get off the planet. Until then, nothing
>>> can happen. In time I think they can take out the orbital stuff.
>>>
>>>> If the colonist can go high tech taking out the ETs is an option but I
>>>> don't see how they can get past the high tech guard dog in the form of
>>>> the colony ship if the guard dog was programmed by somebody with a
>>>> working brain.
>>> Stealth stuff can get into space.
>> Unless the T-2 robot makes it in her super secret lab this isn't going
>> to happen because to high a tech base should be showing and death should
>> rain from on high.
>>
>>
>> That to me is the obvious catch 22 in the story line. In order to do
>> certain things a certain level of tech has to be available to the
>> locals. That level of tech is going to be a basic part of their culture.
>> You really can't hide it from an eye in the sky so big brother should
>> know and have plenty of time to act unless the people programing it were
>> completely brain dead.
>>
>> I don't see any credible way around it. What you are left with are non
>> credible options.
>>
>> Unless the good guys planted bombs or Trojans that can take out the
>> colony ship the people on the ground shouldn't have the chance of a snow
>> flake in a Blue Giant Star of ever being able to defeat it. That should
>> pretty much end that story line.
>>
>
> What colony ship? (at least I thought your posts were on the
> Safehold series).
>
The one they came in but that might be my bad. >> Stay informed about: Merlin - use of advanced tech |
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