Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven ..

pyotr filipivich wrote:

> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of the
> "zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security, not
> just for operational details, but physical protection of principles.
> Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans don't
> have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter offensive.
> Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a lot closer
> together, on the R&D side of the house.
>
>
> tschus
> pyotr

A thought occurs to me: There are probably few major powers in the
galaxy better suited to waging "irregular warfare" than the Havenites,
especially since for decades that was the preferred method of political
action in Nouveau Paris (remember, Eloise Pritchart wasn't always an
idealistic politician. At one point, she was an idealistic guerrilla
fighter).

Wonder if we might start seeing Manpower executives suffering from car
bombs and aircar accidents? Just because the Havenites can't slip a
mind control nanite into a drink doesn't mean they can't make an aircar
start swerving drunkenly at high speed in a crowded city (Hey, the
Manpower executive's aircar could plow into a bus full of their
corporate lawyers, two for one!)

--
--Jeffrey MacHott

"Sola bona lingua est mortua lingua"
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but Jeffrey MacHott
<Raguleader RemoveThis @netzero.net> wrote on Wed, 28 Feb 2007 00:41:15 GMT in
alt.books.david-weber :
>pyotr filipivich wrote:
>
>> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of the
>> "zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security, not
>> just for operational details, but physical protection of principles.
>> Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans don't
>> have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter offensive.
>> Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a lot closer
>> together, on the R&D side of the house.
>>
>>
>> tschus
>> pyotr
>
>A thought occurs to me: There are probably few major powers in the
>galaxy better suited to waging "irregular warfare" than the Havenites,
>especially since for decades that was the preferred method of political
>action in Nouveau Paris (remember, Eloise Pritchart wasn't always an
>idealistic politician. At one point, she was an idealistic guerrilla
>fighter).
>
>Wonder if we might start seeing Manpower executives suffering from car
>bombs and aircar accidents? Just because the Havenites can't slip a
>mind control nanite into a drink doesn't mean they can't make an aircar
>start swerving drunkenly at high speed in a crowded city (Hey, the
>Manpower executive's aircar could plow into a bus full of their
>corporate lawyers, two for one!)

Do not forget the Audubon Ballroom. Manpower hasn't. "Just ask their
body count division."

pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
"Given our monstrous, overgrown government structure, any three letters
chosen at random would probably designate an agency or part of a
department that could be profitably abolished." Milton Freidman
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
<fburton RemoveThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:54:20 -0500 in
alt.books.david-weber :
>
>pyotr filipivich wrote in message ...
>>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
>><fburton RemoveThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:40:30 -0500 in
>>alt.books.david-weber :
>>>
>>>Willowhugger wrote in message
>>><1172593670.488384.5680 RemoveThis @q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
>>>>Not to interrupt this spirited debate of historical war tactics but
>>>>does anyone think that Manticore and Haven will have any good enemies
>>>>left over after they turn on Mesa?
>>>>
>>>>That seems like a huge loss to the book series.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Uhhhh, well, if Mesa happens to split the Solarian League into pieces
>before
>>>the Manties and Haven turns on them, Mesa may end up having a LOT of
>allies,
>>>rather than being a solo planet.
>>
>> Compare and contrast a war with Mesa, and the current Haven/Manticore
>>war.
>>
>> Preparations for the later were a decades long activity, recognizing
>>the threat, analyzing the threat, and designing/building counters to that
>>threat. And the counters were not just the Royal Navy, but the Alliance
>>and the embargo on military sales to the belligerents.
>>
>> A war with Mesa will require the same sort of thing, only in this case
>>war has been engaged for quite some time, even if Manticore hasn't known
>>it. Any war with Mesa is not likely to be a war on the Napoleonic style,
>>waged by capital ships in fleet actions, but on a more protracted and
>>unglamorous scale. Considering the sorts of actions that Manpower (et
>>alia) have engaged in. Subversion and assassinations. A clandestine war
>>in the shadows. Which is one reason that the team of Cachat, Winton &
>>Zilwiki looks to be ... interesting.
>>
>> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of the
>>"zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security, not
>>just for operational details, but physical protection of principles.
>>Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans don't
>>have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter offensive.
>>Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a lot closer
>>together, on the R&D side of the house.
>>
>>
>Some good points.
>
>But if the Manties and Haven ever do realize what Mesa's been doing, why
>should they limit themselves to playing Mesa's game?

Asymmetrical warfare. Fleet actions against a foe with no fleet
accomplishes ...?

I suspect not that Manticore will limit themselves to Mesa's game, but
will have to include that in their portfolio. It will require some shifts
in R&D directions. 'Currently" (as far as we know) Manticore R&D is
focused on Naval research. Against the Mesans, there will need to be an
emphasis on life sciences, particularly in the area of viral nanotech, if
only to counter what the Mesans have. E.g. a "vaccine" to prevent viral
nanobots from reprogramming you.
>
--
pyotr filipivich
"Given our monstrous, overgrown government structure, any three letters
chosen at random would probably designate an agency or part of a
department that could be profitably abolished." Milton Freidman
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

pyotr filipivich wrote in message
<5b4cu25tve6av530rkbv0b4iincpsc60nf.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>...
>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
><fburton.TakeThisOut@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:54:20 -0500 in
>alt.books.david-weber :
>>
>>pyotr filipivich wrote in message ...
>>>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
>>><fburton.TakeThisOut@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:40:30 -0500 in
>>>alt.books.david-weber :
>>>>
>>>>Willowhugger wrote in message
>>>><1172593670.488384.5680.TakeThisOut@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
>>>>>Not to interrupt this spirited debate of historical war tactics but
>>>>>does anyone think that Manticore and Haven will have any good enemies
>>>>>left over after they turn on Mesa?
>>>>>
>>>>>That seems like a huge loss to the book series.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Uhhhh, well, if Mesa happens to split the Solarian League into pieces
>>before
>>>>the Manties and Haven turns on them, Mesa may end up having a LOT of
>>allies,
>>>>rather than being a solo planet.
>>>
>>> Compare and contrast a war with Mesa, and the current Haven/Manticore
>>>war.
>>>
>>> Preparations for the later were a decades long activity, recognizing
>>>the threat, analyzing the threat, and designing/building counters to that
>>>threat. And the counters were not just the Royal Navy, but the Alliance
>>>and the embargo on military sales to the belligerents.
>>>
>>> A war with Mesa will require the same sort of thing, only in this case
>>>war has been engaged for quite some time, even if Manticore hasn't known
>>>it. Any war with Mesa is not likely to be a war on the Napoleonic style,
>>>waged by capital ships in fleet actions, but on a more protracted and
>>>unglamorous scale. Considering the sorts of actions that Manpower (et
>>>alia) have engaged in. Subversion and assassinations. A clandestine war
>>>in the shadows. Which is one reason that the team of Cachat, Winton &
>>>Zilwiki looks to be ... interesting.
>>>
>>> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of the
>>>"zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security, not
>>>just for operational details, but physical protection of principles.
>>>Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans don't
>>>have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter offensive.
>>>Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a lot
closer
>>>together, on the R&D side of the house.
>>>
>>>
>>Some good points.
>>
>>But if the Manties and Haven ever do realize what Mesa's been doing, why
>>should they limit themselves to playing Mesa's game?
>
> Asymmetrical warfare. Fleet actions against a foe with no fleet
>accomplishes ...?

Destroying whatever orbital infrastructure Mesa has for starters.

Then blockading the planet to stifle their economy.

And if necessary, invade their planet to take out their government.

Next question.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

"pyotr filipivich" <phamp.RemoveThis@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:i9d9u2922veq82jnrdqqbtmg75s1itmql2@4ax.com...
> Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
> <fburton.RemoveThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:40:30 -0500 in
> alt.books.david-weber :
>>
>>Willowhugger wrote in message
>><1172593670.488384.5680.RemoveThis@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
>>>Not to interrupt this spirited debate of historical war tactics but
>>>does anyone think that Manticore and Haven will have any good enemies
>>>left over after they turn on Mesa?
>>>
>>>That seems like a huge loss to the book series.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Uhhhh, well, if Mesa happens to split the Solarian League into pieces
>>before
>>the Manties and Haven turns on them, Mesa may end up having a LOT of
>>allies,
>>rather than being a solo planet.
>
> Compare and contrast a war with Mesa, and the current Haven/Manticore
> war.
>
> Preparations for the later were a decades long activity, recognizing
> the threat, analyzing the threat, and designing/building counters to that
> threat. And the counters were not just the Royal Navy, but the Alliance
> and the embargo on military sales to the belligerents.
>
> A war with Mesa will require the same sort of thing, only in this case
> war has been engaged for quite some time, even if Manticore hasn't known
> it. Any war with Mesa is not likely to be a war on the Napoleonic style,
> waged by capital ships in fleet actions, but on a more protracted and
> unglamorous scale. Considering the sorts of actions that Manpower (et
> alia) have engaged in. Subversion and assassinations. A clandestine war
> in the shadows. Which is one reason that the team of Cachat, Winton &
> Zilwiki looks to be ... interesting.
>
> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of the
> "zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security, not
> just for operational details, but physical protection of principles.
> Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans don't
> have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter offensive.
> Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a lot
> closer
> together, on the R&D side of the house.
>
>

I think you are vastly underestimating Mesa and their friends.

> tschus
> pyotr
>
> --
> pyotr filipivich
> We now return you to something called reality.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

"Jeffrey MacHott" <Raguleader.RemoveThis@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:Lc4Fh.206$PW4.131@fe03.news.easynews.com...
> pyotr filipivich wrote:
>
>> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of the
>> "zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security, not
>> just for operational details, but physical protection of principles.
>> Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans don't
>> have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter offensive.
>> Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a lot
>> closer
>> together, on the R&D side of the house.
>>
>>
>> tschus
>> pyotr
>
> A thought occurs to me: There are probably few major powers in the galaxy
> better suited to waging "irregular warfare" than the Havenites, especially
> since for decades that was the preferred method of political action in
> Nouveau Paris (remember, Eloise Pritchart wasn't always an idealistic
> politician. At one point, she was an idealistic guerrilla fighter).
>
> Wonder if we might start seeing Manpower executives suffering from car
> bombs and aircar accidents? Just because the Havenites can't slip a mind
> control nanite into a drink doesn't mean they can't make an aircar start
> swerving drunkenly at high speed in a crowded city (Hey, the Manpower
> executive's aircar could plow into a bus full of their corporate lawyers,
> two for one!)
>
Um. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm expecting planets to get hell bombed back to the
stone age.


> --
> --Jeffrey MacHott
>
> "Sola bona lingua est mortua lingua"
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

"Fred Burton" <fburton.TakeThisOut@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
news:es5ei3$17el$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>
> pyotr filipivich wrote in message
> <5b4cu25tve6av530rkbv0b4iincpsc60nf.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>...
>>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
>><fburton.TakeThisOut@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:54:20 -0500 in
>>alt.books.david-weber :
>>>
>>>pyotr filipivich wrote in message ...
>>>>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
>>>><fburton.TakeThisOut@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:40:30 -0500 in
>>>>alt.books.david-weber :
>>>>>
>>>>>Willowhugger wrote in message
>>>>><1172593670.488384.5680.TakeThisOut@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
>>>>>>Not to interrupt this spirited debate of historical war tactics but
>>>>>>does anyone think that Manticore and Haven will have any good enemies
>>>>>>left over after they turn on Mesa?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That seems like a huge loss to the book series.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Uhhhh, well, if Mesa happens to split the Solarian League into pieces
>>>before
>>>>>the Manties and Haven turns on them, Mesa may end up having a LOT of
>>>allies,
>>>>>rather than being a solo planet.
>>>>
>>>> Compare and contrast a war with Mesa, and the current Haven/Manticore
>>>>war.
>>>>
>>>> Preparations for the later were a decades long activity, recognizing
>>>>the threat, analyzing the threat, and designing/building counters to
>>>>that
>>>>threat. And the counters were not just the Royal Navy, but the Alliance
>>>>and the embargo on military sales to the belligerents.
>>>>
>>>> A war with Mesa will require the same sort of thing, only in this case
>>>>war has been engaged for quite some time, even if Manticore hasn't known
>>>>it. Any war with Mesa is not likely to be a war on the Napoleonic
>>>>style,
>>>>waged by capital ships in fleet actions, but on a more protracted and
>>>>unglamorous scale. Considering the sorts of actions that Manpower (et
>>>>alia) have engaged in. Subversion and assassinations. A clandestine
>>>>war
>>>>in the shadows. Which is one reason that the team of Cachat, Winton &
>>>>Zilwiki looks to be ... interesting.
>>>>
>>>> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of the
>>>>"zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security, not
>>>>just for operational details, but physical protection of principles.
>>>>Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans don't
>>>>have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter
>>>>offensive.
>>>>Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a lot
> closer
>>>>together, on the R&D side of the house.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Some good points.
>>>
>>>But if the Manties and Haven ever do realize what Mesa's been doing, why
>>>should they limit themselves to playing Mesa's game?
>>
>> Asymmetrical warfare. Fleet actions against a foe with no fleet
>>accomplishes ...?
>
> Destroying whatever orbital infrastructure Mesa has for starters.
>
> Then blockading the planet to stifle their economy.
>
> And if necessary, invade their planet to take out their government.
>
> Next question.
>
>
>

Trying to find out where the Mesa version of bolt hole is. Other wise some
of this may get interesting.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but Jeffrey MacHott
> <Raguleader DeleteThis @netzero.net> wrote on Wed, 28 Feb 2007 00:41:15 GMT in
> alt.books.david-weber :
>> pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>
>>> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of the
>>> "zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security, not
>>> just for operational details, but physical protection of principles.
>>> Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans don't
>>> have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter offensive.
>>> Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a lot closer
>>> together, on the R&D side of the house.
>>>
>>>
>>> tschus
>>> pyotr
>> A thought occurs to me: There are probably few major powers in the
>> galaxy better suited to waging "irregular warfare" than the Havenites,
>> especially since for decades that was the preferred method of political
>> action in Nouveau Paris (remember, Eloise Pritchart wasn't always an
>> idealistic politician. At one point, she was an idealistic guerrilla
>> fighter).
>>
>> Wonder if we might start seeing Manpower executives suffering from car
>> bombs and aircar accidents? Just because the Havenites can't slip a
>> mind control nanite into a drink doesn't mean they can't make an aircar
>> start swerving drunkenly at high speed in a crowded city (Hey, the
>> Manpower executive's aircar could plow into a bus full of their
>> corporate lawyers, two for one!)
>
> Do not forget the Audubon Ballroom. Manpower hasn't. "Just ask their
> body count division."
>
> pyotr

Oh wow, can you imagine the carnage that would ensue if the creative
minds of Haven and Torch teamed up, with the financial backers of Manticore?

This could get ugly QUICK.

--
--Jeffrey MacHott

"Sola bona lingua est mortua lingua"
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
> <fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:54:20 -0500 in
> alt.books.david-weber :
>> pyotr filipivich wrote in message ...
>>> Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
>>> <fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:40:30 -0500 in
>>> alt.books.david-weber :
>>>> Willowhugger wrote in message
>>>> <1172593670.488384.5680.DeleteThis@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
>>>>> Not to interrupt this spirited debate of historical war tactics but
>>>>> does anyone think that Manticore and Haven will have any good enemies
>>>>> left over after they turn on Mesa?
>>>>>
>>>>> That seems like a huge loss to the book series.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Uhhhh, well, if Mesa happens to split the Solarian League into pieces
>> before
>>>> the Manties and Haven turns on them, Mesa may end up having a LOT of
>> allies,
>>>> rather than being a solo planet.
>>> Compare and contrast a war with Mesa, and the current Haven/Manticore
>>> war.
>>>
>>> Preparations for the later were a decades long activity, recognizing
>>> the threat, analyzing the threat, and designing/building counters to that
>>> threat. And the counters were not just the Royal Navy, but the Alliance
>>> and the embargo on military sales to the belligerents.
>>>
>>> A war with Mesa will require the same sort of thing, only in this case
>>> war has been engaged for quite some time, even if Manticore hasn't known
>>> it. Any war with Mesa is not likely to be a war on the Napoleonic style,
>>> waged by capital ships in fleet actions, but on a more protracted and
>>> unglamorous scale. Considering the sorts of actions that Manpower (et
>>> alia) have engaged in. Subversion and assassinations. A clandestine war
>>> in the shadows. Which is one reason that the team of Cachat, Winton &
>>> Zilwiki looks to be ... interesting.
>>>
>>> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of the
>>> "zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security, not
>>> just for operational details, but physical protection of principles.
>>> Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans don't
>>> have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter offensive.
>>> Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a lot closer
>>> together, on the R&D side of the house.
>>>
>>>
>> Some good points.
>>
>> But if the Manties and Haven ever do realize what Mesa's been doing, why
>> should they limit themselves to playing Mesa's game?
>
> Asymmetrical warfare. Fleet actions against a foe with no fleet
> accomplishes ...?
>
> I suspect not that Manticore will limit themselves to Mesa's game, but
> will have to include that in their portfolio. It will require some shifts
> in R&D directions. 'Currently" (as far as we know) Manticore R&D is
> focused on Naval research. Against the Mesans, there will need to be an
> emphasis on life sciences, particularly in the area of viral nanotech, if
> only to counter what the Mesans have. E.g. a "vaccine" to prevent viral
> nanobots from reprogramming you.

That said, Manticore DOES have some toys that are nicely suited to
asymmetrical warfare, or at least spy games, which are easily converted
to the type of dirty fighting they might need to do against Mesa.

I mean, I'm not the ONLY one who enjoyed "Let's Go To Prague", right?
With the toys we saw in that story, George W. Bush could walk down the
street in Tehran or Caracas, go vote in the elections, and not get a
second look from anyone on the way (well, depending on who he voted for,
I guess).

--
--Jeffrey MacHott

"Sola bona lingua est mortua lingua"
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

deowll wrote in message ...
>
>"Fred Burton" <fburton DeleteThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
>news:es5ei3$17el$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>>
>> pyotr filipivich wrote in message
>> <5b4cu25tve6av530rkbv0b4iincpsc60nf DeleteThis @4ax.com>...
>>>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
>>><fburton DeleteThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:54:20 -0500 in
>>>alt.books.david-weber :
>>>>
>>>>pyotr filipivich wrote in message ...
>>>>>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
>>>>><fburton DeleteThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:40:30 -0500 in
>>>>>alt.books.david-weber :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Willowhugger wrote in message
>>>>>><1172593670.488384.5680 DeleteThis @q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
>>>>>>>Not to interrupt this spirited debate of historical war tactics but
>>>>>>>does anyone think that Manticore and Haven will have any good enemies
>>>>>>>left over after they turn on Mesa?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That seems like a huge loss to the book series.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Uhhhh, well, if Mesa happens to split the Solarian League into pieces
>>>>before
>>>>>>the Manties and Haven turns on them, Mesa may end up having a LOT of
>>>>allies,
>>>>>>rather than being a solo planet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Compare and contrast a war with Mesa, and the current Haven/Manticore
>>>>>war.
>>>>>
>>>>> Preparations for the later were a decades long activity, recognizing
>>>>>the threat, analyzing the threat, and designing/building counters to
>>>>>that
>>>>>threat. And the counters were not just the Royal Navy, but the
Alliance
>>>>>and the embargo on military sales to the belligerents.
>>>>>
>>>>> A war with Mesa will require the same sort of thing, only in this case
>>>>>war has been engaged for quite some time, even if Manticore hasn't
known
>>>>>it. Any war with Mesa is not likely to be a war on the Napoleonic
>>>>>style,
>>>>>waged by capital ships in fleet actions, but on a more protracted and
>>>>>unglamorous scale. Considering the sorts of actions that Manpower (et
>>>>>alia) have engaged in. Subversion and assassinations. A clandestine
>>>>>war
>>>>>in the shadows. Which is one reason that the team of Cachat, Winton &
>>>>>Zilwiki looks to be ... interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of the
>>>>>"zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security, not
>>>>>just for operational details, but physical protection of principles.
>>>>>Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans don't
>>>>>have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter
>>>>>offensive.
>>>>>Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a lot
>> closer
>>>>>together, on the R&D side of the house.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Some good points.
>>>>
>>>>But if the Manties and Haven ever do realize what Mesa's been doing, why
>>>>should they limit themselves to playing Mesa's game?
>>>
>>> Asymmetrical warfare. Fleet actions against a foe with no fleet
>>>accomplishes ...?
>>
>> Destroying whatever orbital infrastructure Mesa has for starters.
>>
>> Then blockading the planet to stifle their economy.
>>
>> And if necessary, invade their planet to take out their government.
>>
>> Next question.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Trying to find out where the Mesa version of bolt hole is. Other wise some
>of this may get interesting.
>
>

Assuming that there is one.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

"Fred Burton" <fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
news:es6tt9$1j84$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>
> deowll wrote in message ...
>>
>>"Fred Burton" <fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
>>news:es5ei3$17el$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>>>
>>> pyotr filipivich wrote in message
>>> <5b4cu25tve6av530rkbv0b4iincpsc60nf.DeleteThis@4ax.com>...
>>>>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
>>>><fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:54:20 -0500 in
>>>>alt.books.david-weber :
>>>>>
>>>>>pyotr filipivich wrote in message ...
>>>>>>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
>>>>>><fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:40:30 -0500 in
>>>>>>alt.books.david-weber :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Willowhugger wrote in message
>>>>>>><1172593670.488384.5680.DeleteThis@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
>>>>>>>>Not to interrupt this spirited debate of historical war tactics but
>>>>>>>>does anyone think that Manticore and Haven will have any good
>>>>>>>>enemies
>>>>>>>>left over after they turn on Mesa?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>That seems like a huge loss to the book series.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Uhhhh, well, if Mesa happens to split the Solarian League into pieces
>>>>>before
>>>>>>>the Manties and Haven turns on them, Mesa may end up having a LOT of
>>>>>allies,
>>>>>>>rather than being a solo planet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Compare and contrast a war with Mesa, and the current Haven/Manticore
>>>>>>war.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Preparations for the later were a decades long activity, recognizing
>>>>>>the threat, analyzing the threat, and designing/building counters to
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>threat. And the counters were not just the Royal Navy, but the
> Alliance
>>>>>>and the embargo on military sales to the belligerents.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A war with Mesa will require the same sort of thing, only in this
>>>>>> case
>>>>>>war has been engaged for quite some time, even if Manticore hasn't
> known
>>>>>>it. Any war with Mesa is not likely to be a war on the Napoleonic
>>>>>>style,
>>>>>>waged by capital ships in fleet actions, but on a more protracted and
>>>>>>unglamorous scale. Considering the sorts of actions that Manpower (et
>>>>>>alia) have engaged in. Subversion and assassinations. A clandestine
>>>>>>war
>>>>>>in the shadows. Which is one reason that the team of Cachat, Winton &
>>>>>>Zilwiki looks to be ... interesting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of the
>>>>>>"zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security,
>>>>>>not
>>>>>>just for operational details, but physical protection of principles.
>>>>>>Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans
>>>>>>don't
>>>>>>have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter
>>>>>>offensive.
>>>>>>Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a lot
>>> closer
>>>>>>together, on the R&D side of the house.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>Some good points.
>>>>>
>>>>>But if the Manties and Haven ever do realize what Mesa's been doing,
>>>>>why
>>>>>should they limit themselves to playing Mesa's game?
>>>>
>>>> Asymmetrical warfare. Fleet actions against a foe with no fleet
>>>>accomplishes ...?
>>>
>>> Destroying whatever orbital infrastructure Mesa has for starters.
>>>
>>> Then blockading the planet to stifle their economy.
>>>
>>> And if necessary, invade their planet to take out their government.
>>>
>>> Next question.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Trying to find out where the Mesa version of bolt hole is. Other wise some
>>of this may get interesting.
>>
>>
>
> Assuming that there is one.
>
DW said they did in post at one of the web sites posted by the buddy of his
that died. Why would he lie?

It wasn't my blinking idea. The Haven Bolt hole, as presented by DW, has
flaws to me. I've noted that before.

Going out in the middle of nowhere way out of the shipping lanes and
building a major high tech navel construction yard would be a logistic night
mare.

A navel yard for mass producing anything needs to be near a location that
can make the parts needed. The yard then puts the parts together. If a
problem occurs or a change needs to be made you can fix it asap.

Sure the Russans did something sort of similar with tanks but the trans
siberian railroad meant those factories were on a major transportation line.
The level of tech needed was a heck of a lot lower. By and large they
weren't shipping parts for weeks or months to get to an assembly plant.

Unless the planet itself, what ever you want to call the version of Bolt
Hole in question, was high tech all the high tech parts were going to have
be made, tested, packed, loaded, shiped for weeks, unloaded and unpacked,
and then if problems occured, problems always occur, it was going to take
weeks to even get word back to manufacturer that a problem existed. Changes
in design would take forever.

This is Bolt Hole as described by himself. A backward planet with a navel
yard placed there for security reasons and no effort made to modernize the
place.

I'm on record as saying this a a bad idea. The place should have been
modernized as much as practical.

They have a research facility but any problems noted and design changes
they come up with is going to have to be sent weeks away and take many more
weeks to get a product back and communcation with the people expected to
make the item needed or the vital changes couldn't be worse.

Like I said this is "not" my idea but himself has the right to do it any way
he wants.

If you don't like the plot. I'm sure you'll get over it as soon as the book
comes out.





>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "deowll" <deowll.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net>
wrote on Thu, 1 Mar 2007 00:40:48 -0600 in alt.books.david-weber :
>
>> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of the
>> "zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security, not
>> just for operational details, but physical protection of principles.
>> Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans don't
>> have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter offensive.
>> Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a lot
>> closer
>> together, on the R&D side of the house.
>>
>>
>
>I think you are vastly underestimating Mesa and their friends.

I'm not underestimating Mesa, just observing that they prefer to remain
in the background, as much as possible. Their mindset is to work and
attack in the shadows, not gather a fleet and sally forth. Even when they
have a fleet, their policy is to "get inside the human loop" and work
there.
Which doesn't mean that they will necessarily be opposed to using a
bigger hammer. And HWW is the only one who knows how they will do,
tactically, when they do.

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
"Given our monstrous, overgrown government structure, any three letters
chosen at random would probably designate an agency or part of a
department that could be profitably abolished." Milton Freidman
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

"pyotr filipivich" <phamp DeleteThis @mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:88leu2dad0jj3acjd7un8r36hmiei655c1@4ax.com...
> Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "deowll" <deowll DeleteThis @bellsouth.net>
> wrote on Thu, 1 Mar 2007 00:40:48 -0600 in alt.books.david-weber :
>>
>>> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of the
>>> "zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security, not
>>> just for operational details, but physical protection of principles.
>>> Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans don't
>>> have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter
>>> offensive.
>>> Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a lot
>>> closer
>>> together, on the R&D side of the house.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I think you are vastly underestimating Mesa and their friends.
>
> I'm not underestimating Mesa, just observing that they prefer to remain
> in the background, as much as possible. Their mindset is to work and
> attack in the shadows, not gather a fleet and sally forth. Even when they
> have a fleet, their policy is to "get inside the human loop" and work
> there.
> Which doesn't mean that they will necessarily be opposed to using a
> bigger hammer. And HWW is the only one who knows how they will do,
> tactically, when they do.
>

I don't know who HHW is. I know who DW is and I suppose he has something at
least roughly planned out. That's the way he works. He's very organized.

What I think is the day of the completion of their plans is approaching and
they can't do that without people noticing. Thus they are in the process of
making a very large hammer.




> tschus
> pyotr
>
> --
> pyotr filipivich
> "Given our monstrous, overgrown government structure, any three letters
> chosen at random would probably designate an agency or part of a
> department that could be profitably abolished." Milton Freidman
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven ..