Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven ..

deowll wrote in message ...
>
>"Fred Burton" <fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
>news:es6tt9$1j84$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>>
>> deowll wrote in message ...
>>>
>>>"Fred Burton" <fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
>>>news:es5ei3$17el$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>>>>
>>>> pyotr filipivich wrote in message
>>>> <5b4cu25tve6av530rkbv0b4iincpsc60nf.DeleteThis@4ax.com>...
>>>>>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
>>>>><fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:54:20 -0500 in
>>>>>alt.books.david-weber :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>pyotr filipivich wrote in message ...
>>>>>>>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
>>>>>>><fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:40:30 -0500 in
>>>>>>>alt.books.david-weber :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Willowhugger wrote in message
>>>>>>>><1172593670.488384.5680.DeleteThis@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
>>>>>>>>>Not to interrupt this spirited debate of historical war tactics but
>>>>>>>>>does anyone think that Manticore and Haven will have any good
>>>>>>>>>enemies
>>>>>>>>>left over after they turn on Mesa?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>That seems like a huge loss to the book series.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Uhhhh, well, if Mesa happens to split the Solarian League into
pieces
>>>>>>before
>>>>>>>>the Manties and Haven turns on them, Mesa may end up having a LOT of
>>>>>>allies,
>>>>>>>>rather than being a solo planet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Compare and contrast a war with Mesa, and the current
Haven/Manticore
>>>>>>>war.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Preparations for the later were a decades long activity, recognizing
>>>>>>>the threat, analyzing the threat, and designing/building counters to
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>threat. And the counters were not just the Royal Navy, but the
>> Alliance
>>>>>>>and the embargo on military sales to the belligerents.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A war with Mesa will require the same sort of thing, only in this
>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>war has been engaged for quite some time, even if Manticore hasn't
>> known
>>>>>>>it. Any war with Mesa is not likely to be a war on the Napoleonic
>>>>>>>style,
>>>>>>>waged by capital ships in fleet actions, but on a more protracted and
>>>>>>>unglamorous scale. Considering the sorts of actions that Manpower
(et
>>>>>>>alia) have engaged in. Subversion and assassinations. A clandestine
>>>>>>>war
>>>>>>>in the shadows. Which is one reason that the team of Cachat, Winton
&
>>>>>>>Zilwiki looks to be ... interesting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of the
>>>>>>>"zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security,
>>>>>>>not
>>>>>>>just for operational details, but physical protection of principles.
>>>>>>>Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans
>>>>>>>don't
>>>>>>>have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter
>>>>>>>offensive.
>>>>>>>Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a lot
>>>> closer
>>>>>>>together, on the R&D side of the house.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Some good points.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But if the Manties and Haven ever do realize what Mesa's been doing,
>>>>>>why
>>>>>>should they limit themselves to playing Mesa's game?
>>>>>
>>>>> Asymmetrical warfare. Fleet actions against a foe with no fleet
>>>>>accomplishes ...?
>>>>
>>>> Destroying whatever orbital infrastructure Mesa has for starters.
>>>>
>>>> Then blockading the planet to stifle their economy.
>>>>
>>>> And if necessary, invade their planet to take out their government.
>>>>
>>>> Next question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Trying to find out where the Mesa version of bolt hole is. Other wise
some
>>>of this may get interesting.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Assuming that there is one.
>>
>DW said they did in post at one of the web sites posted by the buddy of his
>that died. Why would he lie?

Jeeez. Chill out. I was unaware that Dave stated that the Mesans had their
own Bolthole.




>
>It wasn't my blinking idea. The Haven Bolt hole, as presented by DW, has
>flaws to me. I've noted that before.
>
>Going out in the middle of nowhere way out of the shipping lanes and
>building a major high tech navel construction yard would be a logistic
night
>mare.
>
>A navel yard for mass producing anything needs to be near a location that
>can make the parts needed. The yard then puts the parts together. If a
>problem occurs or a change needs to be made you can fix it asap.
>
>Sure the Russans did something sort of similar with tanks but the trans
>siberian railroad meant those factories were on a major transportation
line.
>The level of tech needed was a heck of a lot lower. By and large they
>weren't shipping parts for weeks or months to get to an assembly plant.
>
>Unless the planet itself, what ever you want to call the version of Bolt
>Hole in question, was high tech all the high tech parts were going to have
>be made, tested, packed, loaded, shiped for weeks, unloaded and unpacked,
>and then if problems occured, problems always occur, it was going to take
>weeks to even get word back to manufacturer that a problem existed. Changes
>in design would take forever.
>
>This is Bolt Hole as described by himself. A backward planet with a navel
>yard placed there for security reasons and no effort made to modernize the
>place.
>
>I'm on record as saying this a a bad idea. The place should have been
>modernized as much as practical.
>
> They have a research facility but any problems noted and design changes
>they come up with is going to have to be sent weeks away and take many more
>weeks to get a product back and communcation with the people expected to
>make the item needed or the vital changes couldn't be worse.
>
>Like I said this is "not" my idea but himself has the right to do it any
way
>he wants.
>
>If you don't like the plot. I'm sure you'll get over it as soon as the book
>comes out.
>
You seem to be assuming that Bolthole isn't a comprehensive production
facility
that's capable of building all of its own components. I wouldn't be so
quick to make
that assumption.

Also, IIRC, the first big burst of new SD construction by Bolthole was made
with
stockpiled components.

I think that there's a lot of value to having a secret shipyard,
particularly if it is largely
self-sufficient, although to be fair, prior to the current war, neither side
had made such
a fetish out of seeking out and destroying enemy economic targets, which
would have
made having a hidden shipyard an even greater priority.

In a situation where you have so many important targets that properly
defending any
one of them becomes nearly impossible, the best defense is stealth. If the
enemy doesn't
know where your shipyard is, they can't drop in and nuke it.

Of course, if Bolthole is not self-sufficient, then keeping its location
secret becomes
more problematic. The more ships that are going back and forth from other
systems
to Bolthole, the more likely that someone will eventually spill the beans.








>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

On Mar 2, 3:36 pm, "Fred Burton" <fbur....TakeThisOut@starfire.mv.com> wrote:
> Except that, IIRC, Theisman mentioned that it took something like a month to
> make a round trip to Bolthole from Haven. Oh, there may still be a wormhole
> that puts Bolthole really out in the middle of nowhere, but it's still a
> long trip.

Exactly - a Havenite system on the edge of the Republic with a
wormhole junction that goes another 100-200 light years away from the
Republic into uncharted space...
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

TheOneKEA wrote in message
<1172861245.188822.266160.DeleteThis@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com>...
>On Mar 2, 3:36 pm, "Fred Burton" <fbur....DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote:
>> Except that, IIRC, Theisman mentioned that it took something like a month
to
>> make a round trip to Bolthole from Haven. Oh, there may still be a
wormhole
>> that puts Bolthole really out in the middle of nowhere, but it's still a
>> long trip.
>
>Exactly - a Havenite system on the edge of the Republic with a
>wormhole junction that goes another 100-200 light years away from the
>Republic into uncharted space...
>

Entirely possible. People here have speculated that that was serious
possibility. If such a wormhole
was kept secret, it would make finding Bolthole's system just about
impossible by normal scouting within
the boundaries of the Republic. But only as long as the wormhole was kept a
secret. If the wormhole
became public knowledge, the Intel analysts would quickly figure out that
Bolthole could be on the other
side of said wormhole.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

"TheOneKEA" <theonekea RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172840208.522288.187450@n33g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 2, 3:20 am, "deowll" <deo... RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> Going out in the middle of nowhere way out of the shipping lanes and
>> building a major high tech navel construction yard would be a logistic
>> night
>> mare.
>
> Two words: Wormhole Junction.
>
> After all, Himself has not really told us that much about the various
> systems inside the Republic of Haven. Perhaps they are lucky enough to
> have a very short-range wormhole junction that only goes about 100-200
> light-years from a Republic system to an unoccupied system in the
> middle of nowhere; the latter would be perfect for something like
> Bolthole.
>
> After all, everybody "knows" that Haven doesn't have any wormhole
> junctions, mainly because Himself hasn't told us yet!
>

Himself as I recall has said they have non. Himself has said about how how
long it takes the top ranking people to get to Bolt Hole and back. I don't
recall the exact number but it was to freeking long! They have, I hope,
major manufacturing centers much closer to Bolt Hole than Haven is and of
course they have many ship yards much closer and easier to supply than Bolt
Hole.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

"Fred Burton" <fburton RemoveThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
news:es9gm2$29e2$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>
> deowll wrote in message ...
>>
>>"Fred Burton" <fburton RemoveThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
>>news:es6tt9$1j84$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>>>
>>> deowll wrote in message ...
>>>>
>>>>"Fred Burton" <fburton RemoveThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:es5ei3$17el$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> pyotr filipivich wrote in message
>>>>> <5b4cu25tve6av530rkbv0b4iincpsc60nf RemoveThis @4ax.com>...
>>>>>>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
>>>>>><fburton RemoveThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:54:20 -0500 in
>>>>>>alt.books.david-weber :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>pyotr filipivich wrote in message ...
>>>>>>>>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
>>>>>>>><fburton RemoveThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:40:30 -0500
>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>alt.books.david-weber :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Willowhugger wrote in message
>>>>>>>>><1172593670.488384.5680 RemoveThis @q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
>>>>>>>>>>Not to interrupt this spirited debate of historical war tactics
>>>>>>>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>>does anyone think that Manticore and Haven will have any good
>>>>>>>>>>enemies
>>>>>>>>>>left over after they turn on Mesa?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>That seems like a huge loss to the book series.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Uhhhh, well, if Mesa happens to split the Solarian League into
> pieces
>>>>>>>before
>>>>>>>>>the Manties and Haven turns on them, Mesa may end up having a LOT
>>>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>allies,
>>>>>>>>>rather than being a solo planet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Compare and contrast a war with Mesa, and the current
> Haven/Manticore
>>>>>>>>war.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Preparations for the later were a decades long activity,
>>>>>>>> recognizing
>>>>>>>>the threat, analyzing the threat, and designing/building counters to
>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>threat. And the counters were not just the Royal Navy, but the
>>> Alliance
>>>>>>>>and the embargo on military sales to the belligerents.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A war with Mesa will require the same sort of thing, only in this
>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>war has been engaged for quite some time, even if Manticore hasn't
>>> known
>>>>>>>>it. Any war with Mesa is not likely to be a war on the Napoleonic
>>>>>>>>style,
>>>>>>>>waged by capital ships in fleet actions, but on a more protracted
>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>unglamorous scale. Considering the sorts of actions that Manpower
> (et
>>>>>>>>alia) have engaged in. Subversion and assassinations. A
>>>>>>>>clandestine
>>>>>>>>war
>>>>>>>>in the shadows. Which is one reason that the team of Cachat, Winton
> &
>>>>>>>>Zilwiki looks to be ... interesting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>"zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security,
>>>>>>>>not
>>>>>>>>just for operational details, but physical protection of principles.
>>>>>>>>Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans
>>>>>>>>don't
>>>>>>>>have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter
>>>>>>>>offensive.
>>>>>>>>Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a lot
>>>>> closer
>>>>>>>>together, on the R&D side of the house.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Some good points.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>But if the Manties and Haven ever do realize what Mesa's been doing,
>>>>>>>why
>>>>>>>should they limit themselves to playing Mesa's game?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Asymmetrical warfare. Fleet actions against a foe with no fleet
>>>>>>accomplishes ...?
>>>>>
>>>>> Destroying whatever orbital infrastructure Mesa has for starters.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then blockading the planet to stifle their economy.
>>>>>
>>>>> And if necessary, invade their planet to take out their government.
>>>>>
>>>>> Next question.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Trying to find out where the Mesa version of bolt hole is. Other wise
> some
>>>>of this may get interesting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Assuming that there is one.
>>>
>>DW said they did in post at one of the web sites posted by the buddy of
>>his
>>that died. Why would he lie?
>
> Jeeez. Chill out. I was unaware that Dave stated that the Mesans had
> their
> own Bolthole.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>It wasn't my blinking idea. The Haven Bolt hole, as presented by DW, has
>>flaws to me. I've noted that before.
>>
>>Going out in the middle of nowhere way out of the shipping lanes and
>>building a major high tech navel construction yard would be a logistic
> night
>>mare.
>>
>>A navel yard for mass producing anything needs to be near a location that
>>can make the parts needed. The yard then puts the parts together. If a
>>problem occurs or a change needs to be made you can fix it asap.
>>
>>Sure the Russans did something sort of similar with tanks but the trans
>>siberian railroad meant those factories were on a major transportation
> line.
>>The level of tech needed was a heck of a lot lower. By and large they
>>weren't shipping parts for weeks or months to get to an assembly plant.
>>
>>Unless the planet itself, what ever you want to call the version of Bolt
>>Hole in question, was high tech all the high tech parts were going to have
>>be made, tested, packed, loaded, shiped for weeks, unloaded and unpacked,
>>and then if problems occured, problems always occur, it was going to take
>>weeks to even get word back to manufacturer that a problem existed.
>>Changes
>>in design would take forever.
>>
>>This is Bolt Hole as described by himself. A backward planet with a navel
>>yard placed there for security reasons and no effort made to modernize the
>>place.
>>
>>I'm on record as saying this a a bad idea. The place should have been
>>modernized as much as practical.
>>
>> They have a research facility but any problems noted and design changes
>>they come up with is going to have to be sent weeks away and take many
>>more
>>weeks to get a product back and communcation with the people expected to
>>make the item needed or the vital changes couldn't be worse.
>>
>>Like I said this is "not" my idea but himself has the right to do it any
> way
>>he wants.
>>
>>If you don't like the plot. I'm sure you'll get over it as soon as the
>>book
>>comes out.
>>
> You seem to be assuming that Bolthole isn't a comprehensive production
> facility
> that's capable of building all of its own components. I wouldn't be so
> quick to make
> that assumption.
>
> Also, IIRC, the first big burst of new SD construction by Bolthole was
> made
> with
> stockpiled components.
>
> I think that there's a lot of value to having a secret shipyard,
> particularly if it is largely
> self-sufficient, although to be fair, prior to the current war, neither
> side
> had made such
> a fetish out of seeking out and destroying enemy economic targets, which
> would have
> made having a hidden shipyard an even greater priority.
>
> In a situation where you have so many important targets that properly
> defending any
> one of them becomes nearly impossible, the best defense is stealth. If
> the
> enemy doesn't
> know where your shipyard is, they can't drop in and nuke it.
>
> Of course, if Bolthole is not self-sufficient, then keeping its location
> secret becomes
> more problematic. The more ships that are going back and forth from other
> systems
> to Bolthole, the more likely that someone will eventually spill the beans.
>
>

I had argued this point myself but he was clear. I don't think it's in the
books so he is free to change his mind.

The last I read nobody in Manticore knows where Bolt Hole is but they do
know it is very remote. It is my understanding they are looking all that
hard because the location of other large ship yards are known and sending a
force to Bolt Hole would effectively make them unavailable for to long.
There are plenty of other vital targets a lot closer.

It may well be that only an elite cadre of pilots actually know how to get
to and from Bolt Hole with detailed data never even being down loaded into
the ships on board computers. Think pilot by lap top or what ever the locals
use. I suppose you might learn something if you knew how long the voyage
was from enough locations but they might make the trip a little longer than
it needs to be to throw people off.


>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

"TheOneKEA" <theonekea.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172861245.188822.266160@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 2, 3:36 pm, "Fred Burton" <fbur....DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote:
>> Except that, IIRC, Theisman mentioned that it took something like a month
>> to
>> make a round trip to Bolthole from Haven. Oh, there may still be a
>> wormhole
>> that puts Bolthole really out in the middle of nowhere, but it's still a
>> long trip.
>
> Exactly - a Havenite system on the edge of the Republic with a
> wormhole junction that goes another 100-200 light years away from the
> Republic into uncharted space...
>

Could be but DW hasn't even hinted at that. Sigh, I always want to know
more.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

TheOneKEA schrieb:
> On Mar 2, 3:20 am, "deowll" <deo....RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> Going out in the middle of nowhere way out of the shipping lanes and
>> building a major high tech navel construction yard would be a logistic night
>> mare.
>
> Two words: Wormhole Junction.
>
> After all, Himself has not really told us that much about the various
> systems inside the Republic of Haven. Perhaps they are lucky enough to
> have a very short-range wormhole junction that only goes about 100-200
> light-years from a Republic system to an unoccupied system in the
> middle of nowhere; the latter would be perfect for something like
> Bolthole.

Combine this with the fact that Torch has some kind of wormhole
junction that Mesa may have used...

interesting.

Kiwaiti
--
Member of the Legion Of MICROS~1 Haters
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

"Kiwaiti" <spam.DeleteThis@kiwaiti.de> wrote in message news:esag37$odl$1@online.de...
> TheOneKEA schrieb:
>> On Mar 2, 3:20 am, "deowll" <deo....DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>> Going out in the middle of nowhere way out of the shipping lanes and
>>> building a major high tech navel construction yard would be a logistic
>>> night
>>> mare.
>>
>> Two words: Wormhole Junction.
>>
>> After all, Himself has not really told us that much about the various
>> systems inside the Republic of Haven. Perhaps they are lucky enough to
>> have a very short-range wormhole junction that only goes about 100-200
>> light-years from a Republic system to an unoccupied system in the
>> middle of nowhere; the latter would be perfect for something like
>> Bolthole.
>
> Combine this with the fact that Torch has some kind of wormhole junction
> that Mesa may have used...
>
> interesting.

In crown of slaves I think it is implied they don't know where that comes
out. They did seem to be seriously concerned about where it might come out
and they clearly have plans to regain their assets.


>
> Kiwaiti
> --
> Member of the Legion Of MICROS~1 Haters
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

deowll schrieb:
> I don't know who HHW is. I know who DW is and I suppose he has something at
> least roughly planned out. That's the way he works. He's very organized.

HWW obviously is He Who Writes - which puts him pretty close to
your DW (Da Writah) and Mike Weber's lil bro.

--
Member of the Legion Of MICROS~1 Haters
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

Fred Burton wrote:
> deowll wrote in message ...

>> Trying to find out where the Mesa version of bolt hole is. Other wise some
>> of this may get interesting.

> Assuming that there is one.

I think Himself said so.

It probably does not limit it's self to big military stuff.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

deowll wrote in message ...
>
>"Fred Burton" <fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
>news:es9gm2$29e2$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>>
>> deowll wrote in message ...
>>>
>>>"Fred Burton" <fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
>>>news:es6tt9$1j84$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>>>>
>>>> deowll wrote in message ...
>>>>>
>>>>>"Fred Burton" <fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:es5ei3$17el$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> pyotr filipivich wrote in message
>>>>>> <5b4cu25tve6av530rkbv0b4iincpsc60nf.DeleteThis@4ax.com>...
>>>>>>>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
>>>>>>><fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:54:20 -0500 in
>>>>>>>alt.books.david-weber :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>pyotr filipivich wrote in message ...
>>>>>>>>>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
>>>>>>>>><fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:40:30 -0500
>>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>alt.books.david-weber :
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Willowhugger wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>><1172593670.488384.5680.DeleteThis@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
>>>>>>>>>>>Not to interrupt this spirited debate of historical war tactics
>>>>>>>>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>>>does anyone think that Manticore and Haven will have any good
>>>>>>>>>>>enemies
>>>>>>>>>>>left over after they turn on Mesa?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>That seems like a huge loss to the book series.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Uhhhh, well, if Mesa happens to split the Solarian League into
>> pieces
>>>>>>>>before
>>>>>>>>>>the Manties and Haven turns on them, Mesa may end up having a LOT
>>>>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>allies,
>>>>>>>>>>rather than being a solo planet.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Compare and contrast a war with Mesa, and the current
>> Haven/Manticore
>>>>>>>>>war.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Preparations for the later were a decades long activity,
>>>>>>>>> recognizing
>>>>>>>>>the threat, analyzing the threat, and designing/building counters
to
>>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>threat. And the counters were not just the Royal Navy, but the
>>>> Alliance
>>>>>>>>>and the embargo on military sales to the belligerents.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A war with Mesa will require the same sort of thing, only in this
>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>war has been engaged for quite some time, even if Manticore hasn't
>>>> known
>>>>>>>>>it. Any war with Mesa is not likely to be a war on the Napoleonic
>>>>>>>>>style,
>>>>>>>>>waged by capital ships in fleet actions, but on a more protracted
>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>unglamorous scale. Considering the sorts of actions that Manpower
>> (et
>>>>>>>>>alia) have engaged in. Subversion and assassinations. A
>>>>>>>>>clandestine
>>>>>>>>>war
>>>>>>>>>in the shadows. Which is one reason that the team of Cachat,
Winton
>> &
>>>>>>>>>Zilwiki looks to be ... interesting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>"zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security,
>>>>>>>>>not
>>>>>>>>>just for operational details, but physical protection of
principles.
>>>>>>>>>Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans
>>>>>>>>>don't
>>>>>>>>>have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter
>>>>>>>>>offensive.
>>>>>>>>>Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a
lot
>>>>>> closer
>>>>>>>>>together, on the R&D side of the house.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Some good points.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>But if the Manties and Haven ever do realize what Mesa's been doing,
>>>>>>>>why
>>>>>>>>should they limit themselves to playing Mesa's game?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Asymmetrical warfare. Fleet actions against a foe with no fleet
>>>>>>>accomplishes ...?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Destroying whatever orbital infrastructure Mesa has for starters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then blockading the planet to stifle their economy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And if necessary, invade their planet to take out their government.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Next question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Trying to find out where the Mesa version of bolt hole is. Other wise
>> some
>>>>>of this may get interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Assuming that there is one.
>>>>
>>>DW said they did in post at one of the web sites posted by the buddy of
>>>his
>>>that died. Why would he lie?
>>
>> Jeeez. Chill out. I was unaware that Dave stated that the Mesans had
>> their
>> own Bolthole.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>It wasn't my blinking idea. The Haven Bolt hole, as presented by DW, has
>>>flaws to me. I've noted that before.
>>>
>>>Going out in the middle of nowhere way out of the shipping lanes and
>>>building a major high tech navel construction yard would be a logistic
>> night
>>>mare.
>>>
>>>A navel yard for mass producing anything needs to be near a location that
>>>can make the parts needed. The yard then puts the parts together. If a
>>>problem occurs or a change needs to be made you can fix it asap.
>>>
>>>Sure the Russans did something sort of similar with tanks but the trans
>>>siberian railroad meant those factories were on a major transportation
>> line.
>>>The level of tech needed was a heck of a lot lower. By and large they
>>>weren't shipping parts for weeks or months to get to an assembly plant.
>>>
>>>Unless the planet itself, what ever you want to call the version of Bolt
>>>Hole in question, was high tech all the high tech parts were going to
have
>>>be made, tested, packed, loaded, shiped for weeks, unloaded and unpacked,
>>>and then if problems occured, problems always occur, it was going to take
>>>weeks to even get word back to manufacturer that a problem existed.
>>>Changes
>>>in design would take forever.
>>>
>>>This is Bolt Hole as described by himself. A backward planet with a navel
>>>yard placed there for security reasons and no effort made to modernize
the
>>>place.
>>>
>>>I'm on record as saying this a a bad idea. The place should have been
>>>modernized as much as practical.
>>>
>>> They have a research facility but any problems noted and design changes
>>>they come up with is going to have to be sent weeks away and take many
>>>more
>>>weeks to get a product back and communcation with the people expected to
>>>make the item needed or the vital changes couldn't be worse.
>>>
>>>Like I said this is "not" my idea but himself has the right to do it any
>> way
>>>he wants.
>>>
>>>If you don't like the plot. I'm sure you'll get over it as soon as the
>>>book
>>>comes out.
>>>
>> You seem to be assuming that Bolthole isn't a comprehensive production
>> facility
>> that's capable of building all of its own components. I wouldn't be so
>> quick to make
>> that assumption.
>>
>> Also, IIRC, the first big burst of new SD construction by Bolthole was
>> made
>> with
>> stockpiled components.
>>
>> I think that there's a lot of value to having a secret shipyard,
>> particularly if it is largely
>> self-sufficient, although to be fair, prior to the current war, neither
>> side
>> had made such
>> a fetish out of seeking out and destroying enemy economic targets, which
>> would have
>> made having a hidden shipyard an even greater priority.
>>
>> In a situation where you have so many important targets that properly
>> defending any
>> one of them becomes nearly impossible, the best defense is stealth. If
>> the
>> enemy doesn't
>> know where your shipyard is, they can't drop in and nuke it.
>>
>> Of course, if Bolthole is not self-sufficient, then keeping its location
>> secret becomes
>> more problematic. The more ships that are going back and forth from
other
>> systems
>> to Bolthole, the more likely that someone will eventually spill the
beans.
>>
>>
>
>I had argued this point myself but he was clear. I don't think it's in the
>books so he is free to change his mind.
>
>The last I read nobody in Manticore knows where Bolt Hole is but they do
>know it is very remote. It is my understanding they are looking all that
>hard because the location of other large ship yards are known and sending a
>force to Bolt Hole would effectively make them unavailable for to long.
>There are plenty of other vital targets a lot closer.

As as Himself wrote, Bolthole is less important than it used to be, since
it's
already transferred all of the knowledge to construct the latest technology.

Bolthole's importance is probably less for its shipyard capacity and more
for its capacity as an R&D facility. However, to truly destroy that
capability
would probably really require killing the people that support the R&D.
Destroying the facilities without killing the people, would only put a big
crimp in any time tables. The creative minds would still exist.

But you're probably correct that there isn't such a major rush to find and
destroy
Bolthole, given that there are so many other worthy targets so much closer.
If it takes a month to make a round trip to Bolthole from Haven (assuming no
wormhole), one can only imagine how long it might take to fly directly to
Bolthole
from Manticore or San Martino.




>
>It may well be that only an elite cadre of pilots actually know how to get
>to and from Bolt Hole with detailed data never even being down loaded into
>the ships on board computers. Think pilot by lap top or what ever the
locals
>use. I suppose you might learn something if you knew how long the voyage
>was from enough locations but they might make the trip a little longer than
>it needs to be to throw people off.
>

Well, that's one way to contain the secret of its location, although I'd
suppose
that the bridge crew would have to required to not look at their nav
computers
or whatever might compute a location based on looking at the stars.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

"Fred Burton" <fburton.RemoveThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
news:esca19$1ko$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>
> deowll wrote in message ...
>>
>>"Fred Burton" <fburton.RemoveThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
>>news:es9gm2$29e2$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>>>
>>> deowll wrote in message ...
>>>>
>>>>"Fred Burton" <fburton.RemoveThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:es6tt9$1j84$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> deowll wrote in message ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Fred Burton" <fburton.RemoveThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:es5ei3$17el$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> pyotr filipivich wrote in message
>>>>>>> <5b4cu25tve6av530rkbv0b4iincpsc60nf.RemoveThis@4ax.com>...
>>>>>>>>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
>>>>>>>><fburton.RemoveThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:54:20 -0500
>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>alt.books.david-weber :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>pyotr filipivich wrote in message ...
>>>>>>>>>>Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
>>>>>>>>>><fburton.RemoveThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:40:30 -0500
>>>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>alt.books.david-weber :
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Willowhugger wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>><1172593670.488384.5680.RemoveThis@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
>>>>>>>>>>>>Not to interrupt this spirited debate of historical war tactics
>>>>>>>>>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>>>>does anyone think that Manticore and Haven will have any good
>>>>>>>>>>>>enemies
>>>>>>>>>>>>left over after they turn on Mesa?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>That seems like a huge loss to the book series.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Uhhhh, well, if Mesa happens to split the Solarian League into
>>> pieces
>>>>>>>>>before
>>>>>>>>>>>the Manties and Haven turns on them, Mesa may end up having a LOT
>>>>>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>>allies,
>>>>>>>>>>>rather than being a solo planet.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Compare and contrast a war with Mesa, and the current
>>> Haven/Manticore
>>>>>>>>>>war.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Preparations for the later were a decades long activity,
>>>>>>>>>> recognizing
>>>>>>>>>>the threat, analyzing the threat, and designing/building counters
> to
>>>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>threat. And the counters were not just the Royal Navy, but the
>>>>> Alliance
>>>>>>>>>>and the embargo on military sales to the belligerents.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A war with Mesa will require the same sort of thing, only in this
>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>war has been engaged for quite some time, even if Manticore hasn't
>>>>> known
>>>>>>>>>>it. Any war with Mesa is not likely to be a war on the Napoleonic
>>>>>>>>>>style,
>>>>>>>>>>waged by capital ships in fleet actions, but on a more protracted
>>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>unglamorous scale. Considering the sorts of actions that Manpower
>>> (et
>>>>>>>>>>alia) have engaged in. Subversion and assassinations. A
>>>>>>>>>>clandestine
>>>>>>>>>>war
>>>>>>>>>>in the shadows. Which is one reason that the team of Cachat,
> Winton
>>> &
>>>>>>>>>>Zilwiki looks to be ... interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>"zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to
>>>>>>>>>>security,
>>>>>>>>>>not
>>>>>>>>>>just for operational details, but physical protection of
> principles.
>>>>>>>>>>Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans
>>>>>>>>>>don't
>>>>>>>>>>have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter
>>>>>>>>>>offensive.
>>>>>>>>>>Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a
> lot
>>>>>>> closer
>>>>>>>>>>together, on the R&D side of the house.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Some good points.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>But if the Manties and Haven ever do realize what Mesa's been
>>>>>>>>>doing,
>>>>>>>>>why
>>>>>>>>>should they limit themselves to playing Mesa's game?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Asymmetrical warfare. Fleet actions against a foe with no fleet
>>>>>>>>accomplishes ...?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Destroying whatever orbital infrastructure Mesa has for starters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then blockading the planet to stifle their economy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And if necessary, invade their planet to take out their government.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Next question.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Trying to find out where the Mesa version of bolt hole is. Other wise
>>> some
>>>>>>of this may get interesting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Assuming that there is one.
>>>>>
>>>>DW said they did in post at one of the web sites posted by the buddy of
>>>>his
>>>>that died. Why would he lie?
>>>
>>> Jeeez. Chill out. I was unaware that Dave stated that the Mesans had
>>> their
>>> own Bolthole.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>It wasn't my blinking idea. The Haven Bolt hole, as presented by DW, has
>>>>flaws to me. I've noted that before.
>>>>
>>>>Going out in the middle of nowhere way out of the shipping lanes and
>>>>building a major high tech navel construction yard would be a logistic
>>> night
>>>>mare.
>>>>
>>>>A navel yard for mass producing anything needs to be near a location
>>>>that
>>>>can make the parts needed. The yard then puts the parts together. If a
>>>>problem occurs or a change needs to be made you can fix it asap.
>>>>
>>>>Sure the Russans did something sort of similar with tanks but the trans
>>>>siberian railroad meant those factories were on a major transportation
>>> line.
>>>>The level of tech needed was a heck of a lot lower. By and large they
>>>>weren't shipping parts for weeks or months to get to an assembly plant.
>>>>
>>>>Unless the planet itself, what ever you want to call the version of Bolt
>>>>Hole in question, was high tech all the high tech parts were going to
> have
>>>>be made, tested, packed, loaded, shiped for weeks, unloaded and
>>>>unpacked,
>>>>and then if problems occured, problems always occur, it was going to
>>>>take
>>>>weeks to even get word back to manufacturer that a problem existed.
>>>>Changes
>>>>in design would take forever.
>>>>
>>>>This is Bolt Hole as described by himself. A backward planet with a
>>>>navel
>>>>yard placed there for security reasons and no effort made to modernize
> the
>>>>place.
>>>>
>>>>I'm on record as saying this a a bad idea. The place should have been
>>>>modernized as much as practical.
>>>>
>>>> They have a research facility but any problems noted and design changes
>>>>they come up with is going to have to be sent weeks away and take many
>>>>more
>>>>weeks to get a product back and communcation with the people expected to
>>>>make the item needed or the vital changes couldn't be worse.
>>>>
>>>>Like I said this is "not" my idea but himself has the right to do it any
>>> way
>>>>he wants.
>>>>
>>>>If you don't like the plot. I'm sure you'll get over it as soon as the
>>>>book
>>>>comes out.
>>>>
>>> You seem to be assuming that Bolthole isn't a comprehensive production
>>> facility
>>> that's capable of building all of its own components. I wouldn't be so
>>> quick to make
>>> that assumption.
>>>
>>> Also, IIRC, the first big burst of new SD construction by Bolthole was
>>> made
>>> with
>>> stockpiled components.
>>>
>>> I think that there's a lot of value to having a secret shipyard,
>>> particularly if it is largely
>>> self-sufficient, although to be fair, prior to the current war, neither
>>> side
>>> had made such
>>> a fetish out of seeking out and destroying enemy economic targets, which
>>> would have
>>> made having a hidden shipyard an even greater priority.
>>>
>>> In a situation where you have so many important targets that properly
>>> defending any
>>> one of them becomes nearly impossible, the best defense is stealth. If
>>> the
>>> enemy doesn't
>>> know where your shipyard is, they can't drop in and nuke it.
>>>
>>> Of course, if Bolthole is not self-sufficient, then keeping its location
>>> secret becomes
>>> more problematic. The more ships that are going back and forth from
> other
>>> systems
>>> to Bolthole, the more likely that someone will eventually spill the
> beans.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I had argued this point myself but he was clear. I don't think it's in the
>>books so he is free to change his mind.
>>
>>The last I read nobody in Manticore knows where Bolt Hole is but they do
>>know it is very remote. It is my understanding they are looking all that
>>hard because the location of other large ship yards are known and sending
>>a
>>force to Bolt Hole would effectively make them unavailable for to long.
>>There are plenty of other vital targets a lot closer.
>
> As as Himself wrote, Bolthole is less important than it used to be, since
> it's
> already transferred all of the knowledge to construct the latest
> technology.
>
> Bolthole's importance is probably less for its shipyard capacity and more
> for its capacity as an R&D facility. However, to truly destroy that
> capability
> would probably really require killing the people that support the R&D.
> Destroying the facilities without killing the people, would only put a big
> crimp in any time tables. The creative minds would still exist.
>
> But you're probably correct that there isn't such a major rush to find and
> destroy
> Bolthole, given that there are so many other worthy targets so much
> closer.
> If it takes a month to make a round trip to Bolthole from Haven (assuming
> no
> wormhole), one can only imagine how long it might take to fly directly to
> Bolthole
> from Manticore or San Martino.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>It may well be that only an elite cadre of pilots actually know how to get
>>to and from Bolt Hole with detailed data never even being down loaded into
>>the ships on board computers. Think pilot by lap top or what ever the
> locals
>>use. I suppose you might learn something if you knew how long the voyage
>>was from enough locations but they might make the trip a little longer
>>than
>>it needs to be to throw people off.
>>
>
> Well, that's one way to contain the secret of its location, although I'd
> suppose
> that the bridge crew would have to required to not look at their nav
> computers
> or whatever might compute a location based on looking at the stars.
>
>

I suspect that they would be about as likely to be able to do that as one of
us would. Not a chance. A picture of the night sky might tell an astronomer
something but I wouldn't count on that. Not unless you could get a true
reading of the spectrum of the stars in teh picture from the picture.





>