Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven ..

On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 22:17:43 -0800, an orbiting mind-control laser
made Loren Pechtel <lorenpechtel.TakeThisOut@hotmail.invalid.com> write:

>What good will their nano-virii do when the fleet pops in? Mesa
>doesn't have anything that can possibly stand against it and I don't
>think they'll surrender even when Manticore controls their orbit.
>Eridani will therefore not apply.

You know... I've been trying to avoid replying to this thread, but
this meme continues:

The Edict _always_ applies.

Just because your target world doesn't surrender doesn't mean that
you can then glassify them.

Their formal refusal to surrender _does_ expand your options list,
within now-broader limits, but it doesn't mean that you have unchecked
authorization to level a populated world.

The Edict isn't meant to prevent wholesale slaughter... the League
knew it could never really manage that. What it _does_ do is codify
what you can and can not do and what the costs will be.

And if you cross the line into 'can not do' territory, the Edict
tells you ahead of time that the SLN _will_ ensure that the cost for
_you_, the aggressor government, the aggressor nation, the aggressor
navy, so high, that you really ought to think thrice before doing
something that bad.

-JPB
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

deowll wrote in message ...
>
>"Fred Burton" <fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
(major snip)

>> Well, that's one way to contain the secret of its location, although I'd
>> suppose
>> that the bridge crew would have to required to not look at their nav
>> computers
>> or whatever might compute a location based on looking at the stars.
>>
>>
>
>I suspect that they would be about as likely to be able to do that as one
of
>us would. Not a chance. A picture of the night sky might tell an astronomer
>something but I wouldn't count on that. Not unless you could get a true
>reading of the spectrum of the stars in teh picture from the picture.
>
>
Well, remember that the Manty ship that first explored the Talbot Cluster
didn't know where it was and had to look at the stars to determine where
they actually were.

I'm not saying that it's a common way of discovering your location. Just
that it's a last resort option when other, more traditional options are not
available. of course, you're not going to be able to just look at the stars
with the good ol' Mk 1 eyeballs and know where you are. Some sort of
spectrum analysis of pretty fair number of stars would probably be
necessary to find a few known stars that you can feed into some locator
program to pin-point your location.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 09:53:01 -0500, Dahak
<Dahak_II.TakeThisOut@theXOUTfifthimperium.com.invalid> wrote:

>On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 22:17:43 -0800, an orbiting mind-control laser
>made Loren Pechtel <lorenpechtel.TakeThisOut@hotmail.invalid.com> write:
>
>>What good will their nano-virii do when the fleet pops in? Mesa
>>doesn't have anything that can possibly stand against it and I don't
>>think they'll surrender even when Manticore controls their orbit.
>>Eridani will therefore not apply.
>
> You know... I've been trying to avoid replying to this thread, but
>this meme continues:
>
> The Edict _always_ applies.
>
> Just because your target world doesn't surrender doesn't mean that
>you can then glassify them.
>
> Their formal refusal to surrender _does_ expand your options list,
>within now-broader limits, but it doesn't mean that you have unchecked
>authorization to level a populated world.
>
> The Edict isn't meant to prevent wholesale slaughter... the League
>knew it could never really manage that. What it _does_ do is codify
>what you can and can not do and what the costs will be.
>
> And if you cross the line into 'can not do' territory, the Edict
>tells you ahead of time that the SLN _will_ ensure that the cost for
>_you_, the aggressor government, the aggressor nation, the aggressor
>navy, so high, that you really ought to think thrice before doing
>something that bad.

You can't just glass the planet but you're free to take reasonable
bombardment actions against the planet. I think a missile onto the
center of government certainly would qualify.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 06:37:01 GMT, Jeffrey MacHott
<Raguleader.DeleteThis@netzero.net> wrote:

>Loren Pechtel wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:39:58 GMT, pyotr filipivich
>> <phamp.DeleteThis@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> But if the Manties and Haven ever do realize what Mesa's been doing, why
>>>> should they limit themselves to playing Mesa's game?
>>> Asymmetrical warfare. Fleet actions against a foe with no fleet
>>> accomplishes ...?
>>
>> Conquer the orbit and demand their surrender.
>
>Reminds me of a discussion I had with someone a while back about waging
>air wars against other countries.
>
>"What makes you think this will accomplish anything? What do you do
>when you run out of things to bomb?"
>
>"Uhm... in military aviation, they typically call that "Victory".
>
>You can't win a war by aviation alone, but you'd be AMAZED at how badly
>someone on the pointy end of an aerial bombing campaign can *not* lose
>before the Army rolls in.

But if they don't surrender to an enemy fleet that controls their
orbitals they leave themselves open to whatever that fleet wants to
throw at them. Back off a few tens of millions of km and lob a
missile at the center of their government. Eridani does *NOT* apply.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

I think the Eriandi Edict is based around the idea that you don't use
weapons of mass destruction and glass civilian cities. What Fred
seems to be assuming is that this is *really* stupid way to conduct a
war in a situation where two powers civilian populous are fully
committed to seeing the war won. Up until World War 2, everyone
treated civilian targets as something that just is necessary to break
the spirit of the enemy.

The fact that the Cold War was based on a premise of nuclear
destruction also shows that such view didn't go away either.

I think the edict IS rather stupid though in the fact that it prevents
a decisive defeat for a truly ideologically committed enemy. Like
Masada. All the Manties can do is occupy it. The same if they had
managed to take the capital, the planet would have essentially just
gone into civil war mode.

I think the Eriandi edict sadly DOES prevent the kind of total war
that Fred believes is to be assumed (by his seeming utter disbelief at
my support of "limited warfare")

-Charles Phipps
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

Dahak wrote in message ...
>On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 22:17:43 -0800, an orbiting mind-control laser
>made Loren Pechtel <lorenpechtel.RemoveThis@hotmail.invalid.com> write:
>
>>What good will their nano-virii do when the fleet pops in? Mesa
>>doesn't have anything that can possibly stand against it and I don't
>>think they'll surrender even when Manticore controls their orbit.
>>Eridani will therefore not apply.
>
> You know... I've been trying to avoid replying to this thread, but
>this meme continues:
>
> The Edict _always_ applies.
>
> Just because your target world doesn't surrender doesn't mean that
>you can then glassify them.
>
> Their formal refusal to surrender _does_ expand your options list,
>within now-broader limits, but it doesn't mean that you have unchecked
>authorization to level a populated world.
>
> The Edict isn't meant to prevent wholesale slaughter... the League
>knew it could never really manage that. What it _does_ do is codify
>what you can and can not do and what the costs will be.
>
> And if you cross the line into 'can not do' territory, the Edict
>tells you ahead of time that the SLN _will_ ensure that the cost for
>_you_, the aggressor government, the aggressor nation, the aggressor
>navy, so high, that you really ought to think thrice before doing
>something that bad.
>
>-JPB

I tend to agree that the Edict doesn't go away if the planet doesn't
surrender,
but there are options left to whomever controls space, such as destroying
all space based infrastructure in the system.

And even without nuking the planet, there's nothing (that I know of) to
prevent
you from bombing specific ground targets with conventional weapons, like
Manpower's HQ.

I suspect that a LOT could be done to shatter Mesa and its economy without
resorting to nukes or having to engage in a full-fledged invasion of the
planet.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

Jeffrey MacHott wrote in message ...
>Loren Pechtel wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:39:58 GMT, pyotr filipivich
>> <phamp RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> But if the Manties and Haven ever do realize what Mesa's been doing,
why
>>>> should they limit themselves to playing Mesa's game?
>>> Asymmetrical warfare. Fleet actions against a foe with no fleet
>>> accomplishes ...?
>>
>> Conquer the orbit and demand their surrender.
>
>Reminds me of a discussion I had with someone a while back about waging
>air wars against other countries.
>
>"What makes you think this will accomplish anything? What do you do
>when you run out of things to bomb?"
>
>"Uhm... in military aviation, they typically call that "Victory".
>
>You can't win a war by aviation alone, but you'd be AMAZED at how badly
>someone on the pointy end of an aerial bombing campaign can *not* lose
>before the Army rolls in.
>
I agree that you cannot win a war without taking the land away from your
enemy,
but that doesn't mean that you can't utterly destroy their economy and their
ability
to feed themselves on a planetary level.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

Loren Pechtel wrote in message
<45eb39f6$0$32118$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>...
>On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 06:37:01 GMT, Jeffrey MacHott
><Raguleader.DeleteThis@netzero.net> wrote:
>
>>Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>> On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:39:58 GMT, pyotr filipivich
>>> <phamp.DeleteThis@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> But if the Manties and Haven ever do realize what Mesa's been doing,
why
>>>>> should they limit themselves to playing Mesa's game?
>>>> Asymmetrical warfare. Fleet actions against a foe with no fleet
>>>> accomplishes ...?
>>>
>>> Conquer the orbit and demand their surrender.
>>
>>Reminds me of a discussion I had with someone a while back about waging
>>air wars against other countries.
>>
>>"What makes you think this will accomplish anything? What do you do
>>when you run out of things to bomb?"
>>
>>"Uhm... in military aviation, they typically call that "Victory".
>>
>>You can't win a war by aviation alone, but you'd be AMAZED at how badly
>>someone on the pointy end of an aerial bombing campaign can *not* lose
>>before the Army rolls in.
>
>But if they don't surrender to an enemy fleet that controls their
>orbitals they leave themselves open to whatever that fleet wants to
>throw at them. Back off a few tens of millions of km and lob a
>missile at the center of their government. Eridani does *NOT* apply.

I really, really do not see the logic of this position.

Refusal to surrender means you have the right to nuke them? Baloney.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

I think the important thing is that there ARE more books. SOmeone should
keep DW safe and undistracted (ala Misery, maybe) so he can write the next
30 books or so to keep us satisfied. Seriously though, I hope he's not
getting burned out on the series.



"pyotr filipivich" <phamp.TakeThisOut@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:i9d9u2922veq82jnrdqqbtmg75s1itmql2@4ax.com...
> Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
> <fburton.TakeThisOut@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:40:30 -0500 in
> alt.books.david-weber :
>>
>>Willowhugger wrote in message
>><1172593670.488384.5680.TakeThisOut@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
>>>Not to interrupt this spirited debate of historical war tactics but
>>>does anyone think that Manticore and Haven will have any good enemies
>>>left over after they turn on Mesa?
>>>
>>>That seems like a huge loss to the book series.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Uhhhh, well, if Mesa happens to split the Solarian League into pieces
>>before
>>the Manties and Haven turns on them, Mesa may end up having a LOT of
>>allies,
>>rather than being a solo planet.
>
> Compare and contrast a war with Mesa, and the current Haven/Manticore
> war.
>
> Preparations for the later were a decades long activity, recognizing
> the threat, analyzing the threat, and designing/building counters to that
> threat. And the counters were not just the Royal Navy, but the Alliance
> and the embargo on military sales to the belligerents.
>
> A war with Mesa will require the same sort of thing, only in this case
> war has been engaged for quite some time, even if Manticore hasn't known
> it. Any war with Mesa is not likely to be a war on the Napoleonic style,
> waged by capital ships in fleet actions, but on a more protracted and
> unglamorous scale. Considering the sorts of actions that Manpower (et
> alia) have engaged in. Subversion and assassinations. A clandestine war
> in the shadows. Which is one reason that the team of Cachat, Winton &
> Zilwiki looks to be ... interesting.
>
> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of the
> "zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security, not
> just for operational details, but physical protection of principles.
> Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans don't
> have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter offensive.
> Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a lot
> closer
> together, on the R&D side of the house.
>
>
> tschus
> pyotr
>
> --
> pyotr filipivich
> We now return you to something called reality.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:03:49 -0500, an orbiting mind-control laser made
"Fred Burton" <fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> write:

>I tend to agree that the Edict doesn't go away if the planet doesn't
>surrender,
>but there are options left to whomever controls space, such as destroying
>all space based infrastructure in the system.
>
>And even without nuking the planet, there's nothing (that I know of) to
>prevent
>you from bombing specific ground targets with conventional weapons, like
>Manpower's HQ.
>
>I suspect that a LOT could be done to shatter Mesa and its economy without
>resorting to nukes or having to engage in a full-fledged invasion of the
>planet.

The only quibble I have with that assessment is the bit on hitting
Manpower's HQ. Despite the fact that Mesa's government is a puppet of
the multi-stellars, you could rightly argue that Manpower's HQ is a
civilian target, not a military one.

Other than that, yes, that accords with what we've been told of
the Edict.

-JPB
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

"Loren Pechtel" <lorenpechtel DeleteThis @hotmail.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:45ea6537$1$32174$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:39:58 GMT, pyotr filipivich
> <phamp DeleteThis @mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>>But if the Manties and Haven ever do realize what Mesa's been doing, why
>>>should they limit themselves to playing Mesa's game?
>>
>> Asymmetrical warfare. Fleet actions against a foe with no fleet
>>accomplishes ...?
>
> Conquer the orbit and demand their surrender.

If they refuse you can start taking out military targets. In this case a
military target could be just about anything you want it to be but you do
have to intend to take over. It's a no no if this is a raid.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

"Loren Pechtel" <lorenpechtel.RemoveThis@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:45ea6537$0$32174$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:59:27 GMT, pyotr filipivich
> <phamp.RemoveThis@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> A war with Mesa will require the same sort of thing, only in this case
>>war has been engaged for quite some time, even if Manticore hasn't known
>>it. Any war with Mesa is not likely to be a war on the Napoleonic style,
>>waged by capital ships in fleet actions, but on a more protracted and
>>unglamorous scale. Considering the sorts of actions that Manpower (et
>>alia) have engaged in. Subversion and assassinations. A clandestine war
>>in the shadows. Which is one reason that the team of Cachat, Winton &
>>Zilwiki looks to be ... interesting.
>>
>> If Manticore and Haven ever twig to the fact of the existence of the
>>"zombie" nano-virii, you can imagine what that will do to security, not
>>just for operational details, but physical protection of principles.
>>Because it will be a war of assassins, if only so that the Mesans don't
>>have to worry about competent opponents coordinating a counter offensive.
>>Looks to me like Manticore and Beowulf are going to be getting a lot
>>closer
>>together, on the R&D side of the house.
>
> Mesa can't stand up to open conflict. They have to work from the
> shadows.
>
> What good will their nano-virii do when the fleet pops in? Mesa
> doesn't have anything that can possibly stand against it and I don't
> think they'll surrender even when Manticore controls their orbit.
> Eridani will therefore not apply.

One Mesa the planet is the home world of a political movement based on
creating a super race. The leaders of the planets that are their allies are
run by members of the super race.

Two DW says they have a major war fleet of advanced design somewhere.

Beyond that I don't have a clue what they do or don't have.

The one thing I do understand is that they aren't as dependant on Mesa the
planet as the Alliance is on Manticore the system.

I still don't know where poor backward Grayson got all the money that is now
in its warfleets in such a short time and why Manticore isn't trying to
upgrade other systems they have taken in, if Grayson can become such a near
equal with only a toxic planet in the middle of nowhere.

Author's prerogative I guess.
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven .. 

"Jeffrey MacHott" <Raguleader DeleteThis @netzero.net> wrote in message
news:gOtGh.111010$ud2.94405@fe09.news.easynews.com...
> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:39:58 GMT, pyotr filipivich
>> <phamp DeleteThis @mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> But if the Manties and Haven ever do realize what Mesa's been doing,
>>>> why
>>>> should they limit themselves to playing Mesa's game?
>>> Asymmetrical warfare. Fleet actions against a foe with no fleet
>>> accomplishes ...?
>>
>> Conquer the orbit and demand their surrender.
>
> Reminds me of a discussion I had with someone a while back about waging
> air wars against other countries.
>
> "What makes you think this will accomplish anything? What do you do when
> you run out of things to bomb?"
>
> "Uhm... in military aviation, they typically call that "Victory".
>
> You can't win a war by aviation alone, but you'd be AMAZED at how badly
> someone on the pointy end of an aerial bombing campaign can *not* lose
> before the Army rolls in.

Nothing left above ground alive. Nothing left below ground alive if it's
location is known.


>
> --
> --Jeffrey MacHott
>
> "Sola bona lingua est mortua lingua"
 >> Stay informed about: Was with Mesa vs the War with Haven was Rooting for Haven ..