Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul?

On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 23:35:39 +0100,
Ancalagon The Black <ancalagon.the.black DeleteThis @virgin.net> wrote:
 > I've already posted my thoughts on this but I'll repeat them here for the
 > clarity of this thread.
 >
 > I think the Erebor Messenger was a Nazgul - "...his breath came like the hiss of
 > snakes...". This is a little *too* similar to the encounters of Gaffer Gamgee
 > (overheard by Frodo) and Farmer Maggot. If I remember rightly, Merry may have
 > witnessed something similar when he overheard a Nazgul talking to either Bill
 > Ferny or the Orc-faced Southerner.

It's what clinches it for me. That hissing and the reaction of Dain's folk
are clear signals that this was a Nazgul. After all, remember, Sauron would
not trust the pursuit of the Ring to any other than his chief and most loyal
servants.

--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca DeleteThis @hotmail.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

AC wrote:
 >
 > On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 23:35:39 +0100,
 > Ancalagon The Black <ancalagon.the.black.RemoveThis@virgin.net> wrote:
  > > I've already posted my thoughts on this but I'll repeat them here for the
  > > clarity of this thread.
  > >
  > > I think the Erebor Messenger was a Nazgul - "...his breath came like the hiss of
  > > snakes...". This is a little *too* similar to the encounters of Gaffer Gamgee
  > > (overheard by Frodo) and Farmer Maggot. If I remember rightly, Merry may have
  > > witnessed something similar when he overheard a Nazgul talking to either Bill
  > > Ferny or the Orc-faced Southerner.
 >
 > It's what clinches it for me. That hissing and the reaction of Dain's folk
 > are clear signals that this was a Nazgul. After all, remember, Sauron would
 > not trust the pursuit of the Ring to any other than his chief and most loyal
 > servants.
 >
 >
I also doubt that he would entrust not just the search for the
Ring (remember the Nazgul asked after Baggins there too), but
the giving of the Dwarvish rings to someone who might be tempted
to take a ring and use it himself, such as a mortal man might
do.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

in <51%Fc.4131$TR.35632190@news-text.cableinet.net>,
Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
 >
 > The messenger from Sauron to Erebor (described in 'The Council of
 > Elrond') could either be a mortal man (like or actually the Mouth of
 > Sauron), or a Ringwraith.
 >
 > What do people think? Is there any conclusive evidence either way?

I don't think that there's any conclusive evidence. The description of
the messenger seems to fit a Nazgûl quite well, but as has been noted it
isn't very consistent with other information about the Nazgûl; their
importance and their role in the overall strategy of Mordor.

We also discussed the identity of this messenger during our discussion of
LotR II,2 'The Council of Elrond', though I don't think remotely
conclusive was arrived at.

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://google.ca/groups?threadm=hHkmc.15785$g4.305205@news2.nokia.com" target="_blank">http://google.ca/groups?threadm=hHkmc.15785$g4.305205@news2.nokia.com</a>

As I said then, my first impression was that of a Nazgûl, and I held that
position for a long time. It is, I think, likely that the messenger was
intended as a Nazgûl, but either any explicit statement to that effect
was removed, or the vaguish description was allowed to remain if Tolkien
found a Nazgûl as the messenger to Dáin inconsistent with his later use
of these Black Riders.

--
Troels Forchhammer

If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would
be a merrier world.
- Thorin Oakenshield, 'The Hobbit' (J.R.R. Tolkien)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

Troels Forchhammer wrote:
 > =

 > in <51%Fc.4131$TR.35632190@news-text.cableinet.net>,
 > Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard DeleteThis @blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
  > >
  > > The messenger from Sauron to Erebor (described in 'The Council of
  > > Elrond') could either be a mortal man (like or actually the Mouth of
  > > Sauron), or a Ringwraith.
  > >
  > > What do people think? Is there any conclusive evidence either way?
 > =

 > I don't think that there's any conclusive evidence. The description of
 > the messenger seems to fit a Nazg=FBl quite well, but as has been noted=
it
 > isn't very consistent with other information about the Nazg=FBl; their
 > importance and their role in the overall strategy of Mordor.
 > =

 > We also discussed the identity of this messenger during our discussion =
of
 > LotR II,2 'The Council of Elrond', though I don't think remotely
 > conclusive was arrived at.
 > =

<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://google.ca/groups?threadm=3DhHkmc.15785$g4.305205@news2.nokia.com=</font" target="_blank">http://google.ca/groups?threadm=3DhHkmc.15785$g4.305205@news2.nokia.co...lt;/fon</a>>

 > =

 > As I said then, my first impression was that of a Nazg=FBl, and I held =
that
 > position for a long time. It is, I think, likely that the messenger was=

 > intended as a Nazg=FBl, but either any explicit statement to that effec=
t
 > was removed, or the vaguish description was allowed to remain if Tolkie=
n
 > found a Nazg=FBl as the messenger to D=E1in inconsistent with his later=
use
 > of these Black Riders.

No, nothing conclusive. But I don't think the objections
against it being a Nazgul are very strong. Here's in favor of a
Nazgul:

1) Description
2) that it is the Matter of the Ring

Against this we have:
1) the Nazgul were not known to be abroad
This objection does not seem strong to me. The first visit
occurred the previous Oct (a year ago), and there has been one
visit since, before the weeks of journeying that Gimli and Gloin
took to come to Rivendell. By June of that year, Sauron had
definite information on the whereabouts of the hobbits and the
name of Baggins and sent the Nazgul in search of it. Not
specific information, but enough to know it was north and on the
other side of the Misty Mountains. (as an aside here,
undoubtedly Saruman by this time knew where the Shire was, and
if Saruman was already in league [more or less] with Sauron why
Sauron didn't get this info from Saruman or why Saruman in
observing that nine were abroad (which they had been already)
and knowing that they were seeking the Shire didn't send some of
his own forces to get the Ring--end of aside) He therefore had
no more need of information or capture of Bilbo from the dwarves
and had written them off to be dealt with later for their lack
of decision.

Further, Boromir reports that in June of 3018 TA, before they
crossed the river, there was a black, fell rider who led the
forces of the enemy who caused fear whereever he went. Thus,
the 9 were abroad at least in June BEFORE they were known to
have crossed the river, but not yet revealed as the Nazgul. =

This indeed may indicate that 6-9 months earlier such a
messenger was sent north. =


2) Also against this is that there is no indication that the
messenger's face could not be seen. Not insurmountable, but
perhaps simply a left out detail in Gloin's report....we don't
know that someone like the Mouth of Sauron for example could
create the same shuddering fear and loathing that the Nazgul can
and do, and that the dwarves feel. The only beings in the LoTR
that I can think of that can do that are the Nazgul.

I can't think of any other objections....but undoubtedly that
error is mine. All in all, I think it probable that the
messenger to Dain is one of the Nazgul.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

Ancalagon The Black <ancalagon.the.black DeleteThis @virgin.net> writes:

 > I've already posted my thoughts on this but I'll repeat them here for the
 > clarity of this thread.
 >
 > I think the Erebor Messenger was a Nazgul - "...his breath came like
 > the hiss of snakes...".

I agree that the description fits a Nazgul rather well, but wouldn't
this be a rather strange choice of messenger? Wouldn't it be more
natural to send a messenger whom there is at least a small chance that
the dwarves would trust? It's hard to believe that anyone would trust
a Nazgul.

--
Tord Romstad<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

Tord Kallqvist Romstad wrote:

 > I agree that the description fits a Nazgul rather well, but wouldn't
 > this be a rather strange choice of messenger? Wouldn't it be more
 > natural to send a messenger whom there is at least a small chance that
 > the dwarves would trust? It's hard to believe that anyone would trust
 > a Nazgul.

It's not like Sauron had lots of fair messengers to send that people
would trust. But in any case, he seemed to trust only the Nazgûl
in matters involving the Ring. They're probably the only ones he
had who would actually turn over the Ring rather than try to keep it.


-- FotW

Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

Tord Kallqvist Romstad wrote:
 >
 > Ancalagon The Black <ancalagon.the.black.TakeThisOut@virgin.net> writes:
 >
  > > I've already posted my thoughts on this but I'll repeat them here for the
  > > clarity of this thread.
  > >
  > > I think the Erebor Messenger was a Nazgul - "...his breath came like
  > > the hiss of snakes...".
 >
 > I agree that the description fits a Nazgul rather well, but wouldn't
 > this be a rather strange choice of messenger? Wouldn't it be more
 > natural to send a messenger whom there is at least a small chance that
 > the dwarves would trust? It's hard to believe that anyone would trust
 > a Nazgul.
 >
 > --
 > Tord Romstad

Whoa! What trust? The messenger says straight out that he is
from "the Lord Sauron the Great"---if the Dwarves have any
knowledge of the history of Middle Earth, any idea of trust in
the sense that I think you mean it goes out the window! On the
other hand, Sauron's greatest weapon in the Third Age is fear,
fear of him. "Capitulate or worse will happen to you." What
better way to use fear to cow the dwarves than by sending one of
the Nazgul? And in addition to fear and menace, there is
promise of reward and the rings of the Dwarves that aided them
in becoming wealthy (taking gold to make gold, and probably
leading to the greed that caused the uncovering of the Balrog in
Moria). So both carrot and stick. As Gloin says at the
Council, ever the power in Mordor betrayed them of all....the
simple fact that the messenger named him in his embassy would
destroy all question of trust...Sauron's "hope" is a) to bribe
the dwarves into giving information on hobbits/Bilbo and the
ring and b) to entice the dwarves by both fear and promise of
reward and treasure to not fight against him....yet.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 11:15:43 -0500,
Larry Swain <theswain.TakeThisOut@operamail.com> wrote:
 >
 > I can't think of any other objections....but undoubtedly that
 > error is mine. All in all, I think it probable that the
 > messenger to Dain is one of the Nazgul.

I still favor the Nazgul explanation, mainly because any objections appear
to be more complaints of a lack of explicit detail. Admittedly, JRRT
doesn't come right out and say the rider was a Ringwraith, but the
description matches close enough the Shire encounters that the only other
explanation is that Sauron had an ordinary rider running around the
Wilderland hissing and giving people the creeps. Gloin's description of the
scene loses a lot of its weight. But, like so many things in JRRT's
mythology, we simply don't have enough information for a definitive case one
way or the other.

--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

On 05 Jul 2004 15:47:57 +0200,
Tord Kallqvist Romstad <romstad.RemoveThis@math.uio.no> wrote:
 > Ancalagon The Black <ancalagon.the.black.RemoveThis@virgin.net> writes:
 >
  >> I've already posted my thoughts on this but I'll repeat them here for the
  >> clarity of this thread.
  >>
  >> I think the Erebor Messenger was a Nazgul - "...his breath came like
  >> the hiss of snakes...".
 >
 > I agree that the description fits a Nazgul rather well, but wouldn't
 > this be a rather strange choice of messenger? Wouldn't it be more
 > natural to send a messenger whom there is at least a small chance that
 > the dwarves would trust? It's hard to believe that anyone would trust
 > a Nazgul.

What messenger could Sauron send that the folk of Durin would trust? These
people's ancestors had battled Sauron and had seen their close friends and
allies in Eregion slaughtered by him? I think there was something of an
intimidation factor in the visit.

--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca.RemoveThis@hotmail.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

"Larry Swain" <theswain.DeleteThis@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:40E97504.ABABC555@operamail.com...
 > Sauron's "hope" is a) to bribe
 > the dwarves into giving information on hobbits/Bilbo and the
 > ring and b) to entice the dwarves by both fear and promise of
 > reward and treasure to not fight against him....yet.

In other words, the classic present day terrorist's offer of 'plombo y
plata' ... silver or lead.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

Troels Forchhammer <Troels.TakeThisOut@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

 > As I said then, my first impression was that of a Nazgûl, and I held
 > that position for a long time. It is, I think, likely that the
 > messenger was intended as a Nazgûl, but either any explicit statement
 > to that effect was removed, or the vaguish description was allowed to
 > remain if Tolkien found a Nazgûl as the messenger to Dáin
 > inconsistent with his later use of these Black Riders.

I like this explanation. It makes a lot of sense. I hereby retract my
retraction of my statement that the messenger was a Nazgul, and jump
over the fence again. It seems to be a lot more popular on this side...


Also, I think that Tolkien implies that Sauron (in June 2018) let the
Nazgul forth in _full_ power, which kind of implies they could act as
"cloaked-Nazgul" to be messengers like this. And the central plank of my
argument that the Nazgul invoked terror in all they approached was
knocked out by the description of Khamul talking quite reasonably (if a
bit rudely) to Gaffer Gamgee. But then, OTOH, that (early) part of the
story was always meant to be more Hobbit-like and less scary! And of
course the Nazgul can be seen as less powerful when they are far away
from Mordor.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

In message <news:40E97EAF.53B0EDE@operamail.com> Larry Swain
<theswain.TakeThisOut@operamail.com> enriched us with:
 >
 > Troels Forchhammer wrote:
  >>

<snip>

  >> I don't think that there's any conclusive evidence. The
  >> description of the messenger seems to fit a Nazgûl quite well,
  >> but as has been noted it isn't very consistent with other
  >> information about the Nazgûl; their importance and their role in
  >> the overall strategy of Mordor.

<snip>

 > No, nothing conclusive. But I don't think the objections
 > against it being a Nazgul are very strong. Here's in favor of a
 > Nazgul:
 >
 > 1) Description
 > 2) that it is the Matter of the Ring
 >
 > Against this we have:
 > 1) the Nazgul were not known to be abroad
 > This objection does not seem strong to me.

Actually we know that they were specifically being held back because
Sauron feared that the wise would guess their mission.

"Yet this weakness they had for Sauron's present purpose: so
great was the terror that went with them (even invisible and
unclad) that their coming forth might soon be perceived and
their mission be guessed by the Wise."
(UT 3,IV 'The Hunt for the Ring' (i))

As others have noted sending a Nazgûl to Erebor when the Dwarves were
known to be speaking with the Elves would be extremely dangerous for
Sauron, who was not yet ready for open war.

A little earlier we hear that "Now Sauron learning of the capture of
Gollum by the chiefs of his enemies was in great haste and fear" and
"At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case but
his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths." This would, as I see it, mean
that the Ringwraiths were not set on this mission before Sauron learned
that Gollum was captured - something which "would then no doubt be late
in April" (3017) (UT again).

The strongest counter-argument against this is, IMO, that Erebor is
east of Anduin, and we know that some of the Ringwraiths occupied Dol
Guldur on that side of the river, and they didn't cross the river until
June 3018.

I am not aware that the visits to Dáin have been dated other than
'about a year ago' for the first visit (at the Council) which, as you
say, would make it about October 3017 - plenty of time to get to Erebor
even from Mordor if Sauron out the Ringwraiths on this search in late
April, but I wonder when the third visit (the messenger came back
twice) was - if it was to be a Nazgûl it would have to have been early
in the year (late May 3018 at the latest) as he would have to get back
to Minas Morgul in time to cross the Anduin at Osgiliath in late June.
Gimli said that "The third and last time, so he says, is soon to come,
before the ending of the year," which I find doesn't rhyme very well
with three visits between October and May.

<snip>

 > 2) Also against this is that there is no indication that the
 > messenger's face could not be seen.

That doesn't help either way, IMO.

 > we don't know that someone like the Mouth of Sauron for example
 > could create the same shuddering fear and loathing that the Nazgul
 > can and do, and that the dwarves feel.

For some reason I had missed the Dwarves shuddering at the messenger's
hissing, thanks.

It would have helped if there had been a more clear indication that
this was similar to the terror exuded by the Nazgûl - howling dogs or
something

 > The only beings in the LoTR that I can think of that can do that are
 > the Nazgul.

Shelob?

 > I can't think of any other objections....but undoubtedly that
 > error is mine.

The strongest objections, in my mind, is the tactical situation (Sauron
not wanting to reveal his search and not being ready for open war), and
the timing of the last visit.

 > All in all, I think it probable that the messenger to Dain is one of
 > the Nazgul.

I'd definitely say so as well - my problem is that I can't say that I
think it is significantly /more/ probable that it being something else


--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

A good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read.
- (Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

Troels Forchhammer wrote:

 > As I said then, my first impression was that of a Nazg=FBl, and I hel=
d that
 > position for a long time. It is, I think, likely that the messenger w=
as
 > intended as a Nazg=FBl, but either any explicit statement to that eff=
ect
 > was removed, or the vaguish description was allowed to remain if Tolk=
ien
 > found a Nazg=FBl as the messenger to D=E1in inconsistent with his lat=
er use
 > of these Black Riders.
 >=20

I have noticed this a lot with LOTR. While some things are from the au=
thor's
point of view (the reader is made aware of the comings and going of bot=
h good
and evil sides), most stuff is written from the good guys side. =20

From a story-internal point of view, this may have been done deliberate=
ly. Look
at this from the Dwarves' point of view. They did not know that the Ni=
ne had
risen - this only became obvious when the the crossing of Anduin was fo=
rced at
Osgiliath, and they passed westward. The Nine could well have been abr=
oad long
beforehand, and perhaps no Dwarf had ever faced one of these creatures,=
so
perhaps they may not have recognised it for what it was.

In this case it would appear that the White Council thinks that the Naz=
gul
became "fully active" when they started the journey West to look for th=
e Ring
(after the interrogation of Gollum). =20

To me it seems that one visited Erebor beforehand. A Nazgul issuing fr=
om Minas
Morgul could have headed North, hugging the West side of the Ephel Duat=
h,
passing over the Brown Lands, circumventing Mirkwood on the East side, =
crossing
the Celduin and going on to Erebor in virtually a straight line. This =
would
allow him to get to the Lonely Mountain without encountering any other =
people.

From Gloin's tale at the Council of Elrond, it would appear that the ho=
rseman
came to Erebor around October 3017. Sauron's attack on Osgiliath occur=
red 20
June 3018, so the movements of the Nazgul would become known to the Wis=
e after
this date.

Perhaps Sauron was waiting on the Dwarves to answer him, before he had =
no choice
but to send the Nazgul into the West.

Best,
--=20
Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband
ancalagon.the.black RemoveThis @virgin.net


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