Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul?

"Larry Swain" <theswain.TakeThisOut@operamail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:40E8F2C9.B63CBC2B@operamail.com...

 > AC wrote:
  > >
[snip]

 > I also doubt that he would entrust not just the search for the
 > Ring (remember the Nazgul asked after Baggins there too), but
 > the giving of the Dwarvish rings to someone who might be tempted
 > to take a ring and use it himself, such as a mortal man might
 > do.

That's an excellent point.

Öjevind<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

"Öjevind Lång" <dnivejo.gnal.DeleteThis@swipnet.se> wrote in message
news:BllGc.2114$Z57.1249@nntpserver.swip.net...
 > "Larry Swain" <theswain.DeleteThis@operamail.com> skrev i meddelandet
 > news:40E8F2C9.B63CBC2B@operamail.com...
 >
  > > AC wrote:
   > > >
 > [snip]
 >
  > > I also doubt that he would entrust not just the search for the
  > > Ring (remember the Nazgul asked after Baggins there too), but
  > > the giving of the Dwarvish rings to someone who might be tempted
  > > to take a ring and use it himself, such as a mortal man might
  > > do.
 >
 > That's an excellent point.
 >

Except that it was never given.
Would it have been?
Sauron had this history of deceit.
And how much of a threat would it have been if a servant of Sauron got his
hands on a Dwarven Ring (I know they might be the same as the Nazgul rings)?
I find that interesting!
Sauron didn't have the One so this Mortal with the Dwarven Ring would have
been free to some extent.
Long life, invisibility I wonder what other powers it would have bestowed
that a mortal Man (meaning either man or woman) would have been able to
access.
How would the Nazgul have reacted around this potential peer?
I wonder if the Nazgul were trained by Sauron himself after they fell under
the power of the One. Although it says that they were powerful sorcerers in
their own rights too before they fell to the One.

Just thinking out loud.

T.A.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

"R Dan Henry" <danhenry RemoveThis @inreach.com> wrote in message
news:bscke0dvuh4peeh8vi94kmgc9q8lfgu5gc@4ax.com...
 > On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 00:47:15 +0100, in a fit of madness Ancalagon The
 > Black <ancalagon.the.black RemoveThis @virgin.net> declared:
 >
  > >In the second scenario, the Messenger rides off with both the Hobbit and
the
  > >Ring. During the journey, the Ring starts to put all sorts of wild ideas
into
  > >the Messenger's head (or simply expands on what is already there). The
  > >Messenger claims the Ring for himself, kills the Hobbit, and decides to
head
  > >far South (or East), to hide for a while, and raise an army.
  > >
  > >This is bad news for Sauron, as you can imagine, which is why I believe
he sent
  > >a /slave/ to Erebor, not a /servant/.
 >
 > Only bad news if the fellow is actually powerful enough to use the Ring.
 > So, I'd say that probably rules out the Mouth of Sauron, but not some
 > (obviously badly-trained) standard lackey type. If nothing else, you can
 > have the Nazgul stay nearby, but out of sight, and have them escort the
 > messenger back to Mordor if the Dwarves provide.
 >
 > R. Dan Henry (danhenry@inreach.com)
 > "He stood up, and seemed suddenly to grow taller."
 > - JRRT, LOTR, I.10 "Strider"
 > Yeah, standing up will do that.

This is pure speculation, no way of knowing
one way or the next, but (for what it may or
may not be worth) in reference to Tolkien's
statement "this tale grew in the telling", it might
be possible that at the time that "The council of
Elrond" was being written, the "mouth of Sauron"
carachter may not have even been thought of.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

"Ancalagon The Black" <ancalagon.the.black.RemoveThis@virgin.net> kirjoitti
viestissä:40e9e881_1@127.0.0.1...

 > Also, in reality he had /no choice/ but to send a Nazgul, even to Erebor.
Think
 > about this sequence of events:
 >
 > 1. Non-Nazgul Messenger goes to Erebor and speaks to the Dwarves, asking
them
 > to turn over the Ring and its bearer.
 > 2. The Dwarves agree, and before long a very frightened Bilbo (or Frodo)
is in
 > shackles at the gate of Erebor.
 > 3. The Messenger returns to claim his prizes.

I don't think Sauron wanted anything more from the Dwarves
then the location of Shire, which he didn't know yet. As you
said, he wouldn't have trusted anyone but the Nazgul to
actually retrieve the Ring. This of course suggests that the
messenger must have been Nazgul, because otherwise he
would have to deliver the information to them first, and that
would waste precious time.

Morgil<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

Troels Forchhammer wrote:
 > =


I wrote:
  > > Against this we have:
  > > 1) the Nazgul were not known to be abroad
  > > This objection does not seem strong to me.
 > =


Troels responds:
 > Actually we know that they were specifically being held back because
 > Sauron feared that the wise would guess their mission.
 > =

 > "Yet this weakness they had for Sauron's present purpose: so
 > great was the terror that went with them (even invisible and
 > unclad) that their coming forth might soon be perceived and
 > their mission be guessed by the Wise."
 > (UT 3,IV 'The Hunt for the Ring' (i))

=

 > As others have noted sending a Nazg=FBl to Erebor when the Dwarves were=

 > known to be speaking with the Elves would be extremely dangerous for
 > Sauron, who was not yet ready for open war.

Good point, but this doesn't seem to have stopped him sending
them into battle in June 3018, only 7-8 months after the visit
to Erebor. Further, he had just released Gollum and knew that
the best road to the Ring was to find those dwarves in whose
company Bilbo had been. In addition, we know that the messenger
caused even the dwarves to shudder....so while I agree with your
citation here, I would say that late in 3017 it no longer
applied. Particularly since Sauron was sending the Nazgul to a
people who probably hadn't seen one before.

As for the communication with elves----what communication? That
Thranduil and Dain were at peace, and had undoubtedly
established trading relationships that were mutually lucrative
and beneficial, what "communication" is going on? And Dain
certainly isn't consulting Elrond or Galadriel regularly. This
does not seem to me to be a strong objection.

=

 > A little earlier we hear that "Now Sauron learning of the capture of
 > Gollum by the chiefs of his enemies was in great haste and fear" and
 > "At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case but
 > his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths." This would, as I see it, mean=

 > that the Ringwraiths were not set on this mission before Sauron learned=

 > that Gollum was captured - something which "would then no doubt be late=

 > in April" (3017) (UT again).
 > =

 > The strongest counter-argument against this is, IMO, that Erebor is
 > east of Anduin, and we know that some of the Ringwraiths occupied Dol
 > Guldur on that side of the river, and they didn't cross the river until=

 > June 3018.

Right, cross the river until then, it says nothing of what
activities they were up to on that side of the river.


 > =

 > I am not aware that the visits to D=E1in have been dated other than
 > 'about a year ago' for the first visit (at the Council) which, as you
 > say, would make it about October 3017 - plenty of time to get to Erebor=

 > even from Mordor if Sauron out the Ringwraiths on this search in late
 > April, but I wonder when the third visit (the messenger came back
 > twice) was - if it was to be a Nazg=FBl it would have to have been earl=
y
 > in the year (late May 3018 at the latest) as he would have to get back
 > to Minas Morgul in time to cross the Anduin at Osgiliath in late June.
 > Gimli said that "The third and last time, so he says, is soon to come,
 > before the ending of the year," which I find doesn't rhyme very well
 > with three visits between October and May.
 > =


And may never have happened. The primary objective of the
embassage is to a) get the ring and its bearer b) failing a, to
get information about the ring and its bearer and c) if possible
the goodwill of the dwarves on Sauron's side. But C is only a
side issue here: the really important question is either the
ring and its bearer, or at the very least information about him
and where he dwells. By June 3018 apparently Sauron knew more
than he did in Oct. As for travel, a Nazgul is limited only by
its steed. It doesn't seem to need food or sleep and so could
continue to travel longer than another mortal could. Thus,
between the second and third visits, the third visit became
unnecessary--Sauron knew where the Ring was....approximately. =

There was no need to send back to the dwarves and ask pretty
please...their silence was answer enough.


 > =

 > It would have helped if there had been a more clear indication that
 > this was similar to the terror exuded by the Nazg=FBl - howling dogs or=

 > something

Indeed!

 > =

  > > The only beings in the LoTR that I can think of that can do that are
  > > the Nazgul.
 > =

 > Shelob?


Good point......

 > =

  > > I can't think of any other objections....but undoubtedly that
  > > error is mine.
 > =

 > The strongest objections, in my mind, is the tactical situation (Sauron=

 > not wanting to reveal his search and not being ready for open war), and=

 > the timing of the last visit.

But he isn't ready for open war in Sept 3018 when he sends the
nine screaming across the river, nor is he ready for open war in
March 3019, but his hand is forced by the thought that an enemy
unlooked for has emerged, claimed the ring, claimed his
heritage, and will throw Sauron down with his own
ring...therefore strike before he gains mastery over the ring
and then take it from him. So I'm not sure Sauron's readiness
or lack of it is really a strong argument as late as Oct 3017
against it being a Nazgul.
=

  > > All in all, I think it probable that the messenger to Dain is one of
  > > the Nazgul.
 > =

 > I'd definitely say so as well - my problem is that I can't say that I
 > think it is significantly /more/ probable that it being something else
 >
 >
Well said. I think the probability higher than you do
apparently. But nice to talk about these things without a flame
war isn't it?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

In rec.arts.books.tolkien John McCafferty <azrach.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> wrote:

: "R Dan Henry" <danhenry.RemoveThis@inreach.com> wrote in message
: news:bscke0dvuh4peeh8vi94kmgc9q8lfgu5gc@4ax.com...
:> On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 00:47:15 +0100, in a fit of madness Ancalagon The
:> Black <ancalagon.the.black.RemoveThis@virgin.net> declared:
:>
:> >In the second scenario, the Messenger rides off with both the Hobbit and
: the
:> >Ring. During the journey, the Ring starts to put all sorts of wild ideas
: into
:> >the Messenger's head (or simply expands on what is already there). The
:> >Messenger claims the Ring for himself, kills the Hobbit, and decides to
: head
:> >far South (or East), to hide for a while, and raise an army.
:> >
:> >This is bad news for Sauron, as you can imagine, which is why I believe
: he sent
:> >a /slave/ to Erebor, not a /servant/.
:>
:> Only bad news if the fellow is actually powerful enough to use the Ring.
:> So, I'd say that probably rules out the Mouth of Sauron, but not some
:> (obviously badly-trained) standard lackey type. If nothing else, you can
:> have the Nazgul stay nearby, but out of sight, and have them escort the
:> messenger back to Mordor if the Dwarves provide.
:>
:> R. Dan Henry (danhenry@inreach.com)
:> "He stood up, and seemed suddenly to grow taller."
:> - JRRT, LOTR, I.10 "Strider"
:> Yeah, standing up will do that.

: This is pure speculation, no way of knowing
: one way or the next, but (for what it may or
: may not be worth) in reference to Tolkien's
: statement "this tale grew in the telling", it might
: be possible that at the time that "The council of
: Elrond" was being written, the "mouth of Sauron"
: carachter may not have even been thought of.

That is almost certainly true. When "The Council of Elrond"
was being written Aragorn was still a hobbit named Trotter.
Tolkien was making stuff up as he went, and as a result,
there may not be a real satisfactory answer as to who the
messenger to Erebor was.

Stephen
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

in <RbkGc.419$WK4.5669986@news-text.cableinet.net>,
Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
 >
 > Troels Forchhammer <Troels.DeleteThis@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
 >
  >> As I said then, my first impression was that of a Nazgûl, and I held
  >> that position for a long time. It is, I think, likely that the
  >> messenger was intended as a Nazgûl, but either any explicit statement
  >> to that effect was removed, or the vaguish description was allowed to
  >> remain if Tolkien found a Nazgûl as the messenger to Dáin
  >> inconsistent with his later use of these Black Riders.
 >
 > I like this explanation. It makes a lot of sense. I hereby retract my
 > retraction of my statement that the messenger was a Nazgul, and jump
 > over the fence again. It seems to be a lot more popular on this
 > side...

Well, if you choose to retract your retraction of your retraction of your
statement I've got a perfectly nice spot on top of the fence - lots of
nice cushions and I've got a table installed for the whiskey glasses (I
always like a bit of refreshment when watching the fight <g>) - you're
welcome to join me.

 > Also, I think that Tolkien implies that Sauron (in June 2018) let the
 > Nazgul forth in _full_ power, which kind of implies they could act as
 > "cloaked-Nazgul" to be messengers like this. And the central plank of
 > my argument that the Nazgul invoked terror in all they approached was
 > knocked out by the description of Khamul talking quite reasonably (if
 > a bit rudely) to Gaffer Gamgee.

How is the grass on that side of the fence?

Sam reports the Gaffer as saying, "Hissed at me, he did. It gave me quite
a shudder." and Gimli, at the council reported that, "At that his breath
came like the hiss of snakes, and all who stood by shuddered." If it
looks like a Black Rider, sounds like a Black Rider and feels like a
Black Rider, I am at least willing to contemplate the idea that it might
be a Black Rider . . .
(can I take my cushions and the table? <g>)

--
Troels Forchhammer

Love while you've got
love to give.
Live while you've got
life to live.
- Piet Hein, /Memento Vivere/<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

Ancalagon The Black <ancalagon.the.black RemoveThis @virgin.net> wrote in
news:40e9e33e_1@127.0.0.1:
 >
 > To me it seems that one visited Erebor beforehand. A Nazgul
 > issuing from Minas Morgul could have headed North, hugging the
 > West side of the Ephel Duath, passing over the Brown Lands,
 > circumventing Mirkwood on the East side, crossing the Celduin and
 > going on to Erebor in virtually a straight line. This would allow
 > him to get to the Lonely Mountain without encountering any other
 > people.

Were there any major obstacles preventing one from going from Dol
Guldur via the Brown Lands? Not having a copy of the map to hand, I
don't know if the Running stretches as far south as the Bight, nor if
there were any crossing points south of Dale.


--
Cheers, ymt.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 10:34:28 -0500, Larry Swain
<theswain.DeleteThis@operamail.com> wrote:
 >other hand, Sauron's greatest weapon in the Third Age is fear,
 >fear of him. "Capitulate or worse will happen to you." What
 >better way to use fear to cow the dwarves than by sending one of
 >the Nazgul? And in addition to fear and menace, there is
 >promise of reward and the rings of the Dwarves that aided them
 >in becoming wealthy

Not to mention a fanatical devotion to the Po-- oops, sooorry, wrong
Inquisition...

Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
I wish I deserved some self-esteem.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

<stephen DeleteThis @nomail.com> wrote in message
news:ccg00p$1159$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
> In rec.arts.books.tolkien John McCafferty <azrach DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> : "R Dan Henry" <danhenry DeleteThis @inreach.com> wrote in message
> : news:bscke0dvuh4peeh8vi94kmgc9q8lfgu5gc@4ax.com...
> :> On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 00:47:15 +0100, in a fit of madness Ancalagon The
> :> Black <ancalagon.the.black DeleteThis @virgin.net> declared:
> :>
> :> >In the second scenario, the Messenger rides off with both the Hobbit
and
> : the
> :> >Ring. During the journey, the Ring starts to put all sorts of wild
ideas
> : into
> :> >the Messenger's head (or simply expands on what is already there). The
> :> >Messenger claims the Ring for himself, kills the Hobbit, and decides
to
> : head
> :> >far South (or East), to hide for a while, and raise an army.
> :> >
> :> >This is bad news for Sauron, as you can imagine, which is why I
believe
> : he sent
> :> >a /slave/ to Erebor, not a /servant/.
> :>
> :> Only bad news if the fellow is actually powerful enough to use the
Ring.
> :> So, I'd say that probably rules out the Mouth of Sauron, but not some
> :> (obviously badly-trained) standard lackey type. If nothing else, you
can
> :> have the Nazgul stay nearby, but out of sight, and have them escort the
> :> messenger back to Mordor if the Dwarves provide.
> :>
> :> R. Dan Henry (danhenry@inreach.com)
> :> "He stood up, and seemed suddenly to grow taller."
> :> - JRRT, LOTR, I.10 "Strider"
> :> Yeah, standing up will do that.
>
> : This is pure speculation, no way of knowing
> : one way or the next, but (for what it may or
> : may not be worth) in reference to Tolkien's
> : statement "this tale grew in the telling", it might
> : be possible that at the time that "The council of
> : Elrond" was being written, the "mouth of Sauron"
> : carachter may not have even been thought of.
>
> That is almost certainly true. When "The Council of Elrond"
> was being written Aragorn was still a hobbit named Trotter.
> Tolkien was making stuff up as he went, and as a result,
> there may not be a real satisfactory answer as to who the
> messenger to Erebor was.
>
> Stephen

That's one way of looking at it, and a good one, which
I hadn't thought of. I had been thinking that if the "mouth
of Sauron" carachter hadn't been concieved at the time,
then by a process of elimination it would have had to been
a nazgul at Erebor.
 >> Stay informed about: Mesenger to Erebor - Mouth of Sauron or Nazgul? 

"The American" <a_real_american@hot-(my-email-is-messed-up)-mail.com> skrev
i meddelandet news:zZmdnShHXtkVJ3fdRVn-gw@conversent.net...

[snip]

   > > > I also doubt that he would entrust not just the search for the
   > > > Ring (remember the Nazgul asked after Baggins there too), but
   > > > the giving of the Dwarvish rings to someone who might be tempted
   > > > to take a ring and use it himself, such as a mortal man might
   > > > do.
  > >
  > > That's an excellent point.

I doiutb that Sauron would have trusted any of his servants except the
Nazgûl (who were completely under his control) with as much asinformaiton
about the Ring. And the hissing, nightly emissary to Erebor is asking for
the Ring.

Öjevind<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:38:31 -0500, in a fit of madness "John McCafferty"
<azrach.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> declared:

>That's one way of looking at it, and a good one, which
>I hadn't thought of. I had been thinking that if the "mouth
>of Sauron" carachter hadn't been concieved at the time,
>then by a process of elimination it would have had to been
>a nazgul at Erebor.

No, it doesn't. There is no reason the messenger has to appear anywhere
else in the narrative. "Nazgul" certainly seems the most likely, but it
is not a sure thing.

R. Dan Henry (danhenry@inreach.com)
"He stood up, and seemed suddenly to grow taller."
- JRRT, LOTR, I.10 "Strider"
Yeah, standing up will do that.
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