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moyehoist1

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Since: Jul 12, 2004
Posts: 53



(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:50 pm
Post subject: "Mr Gorbachov, We Put Back the Wall"
Archived from groups: alt>books>george-orwell (more info?)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4033475.stm

The democratic candidate Yushchenko barely survived the poisoning by
former communists - but they stole the election anyway.

The horrific lesions and pustules that remain from the cocktail of
untraceable viruses portray the Dorianesque tragedy that has befallen
Ukraine in the last 100 years - 20 million lost to communist genocide,
12 million lost in the fight agains fascism, and now this.

They HAVE "controlled the past" -- and the present, ergo the future.

There will be blood again.

bmp

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user1543

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Since: Nov 23, 2004
Posts: 14



(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:40 pm
Post subject: Re: "Mr Gorbachov, We Put Back the Wall" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
moyehoist RemoveThis @aol.com (Black Minorca Pullets) wrote in
news:bbd13306.0411221350.44a4cc78@posting.google.com:

<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4033475.stm</font" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4033475.stm</font</a>>
 >
 > The democratic candidate Yushchenko barely survived the poisoning by
 > former communists - but they stole the election anyway.
 >
 > The horrific lesions and pustules that remain from the cocktail of
 > untraceable viruses portray the Dorianesque tragedy that has befallen
 > Ukraine in the last 100 years - 20 million lost to communist genocide,
 > 12 million lost in the fight agains fascism, and now this.
 >
 > They HAVE "controlled the past" -- and the present, ergo the future.
 >
 > There will be blood again.
 >
 > bmp

I lived in Kiev in the early nineties and visited there several times.
Ukraine hasn't yet been a practicing democracy as a nation, only in some
mostly western provinces.

Your point about "they" makes no sense. Nearly every politician in
parliament or beauraucrat over 30, *including* the "democratic" candidate
Victor Yushchenko, is a former communist. When the wall came down the
communists in power exchanged party cards for Ukrainian right-wing
nationalist cards or became "born again" democrats like Yushchenko. In
the nineties the Ukr government courted the US pretty heavily. Hundreds
of Ukr officers have come to the US for training, received training from
US Army units in Ukr or conducted joint maneuvers with us.

If you knew anything about Ukr you'd know that western Ukr is Catholic,
nationalist and anti-Russian [pro-Yushchenko]. The USSR actively
suppressed the Catholics. Eastern Ukr is Orthodox with a large number of
Russians or Ukrainians with Russians in their family tree [pro-Russian]..
After WWII the USSR allowed only the Orthodox church to exist and
maintain monastaries and churches. After independence western Ukrainians
took over Orthodox churches that had been previously Catholic kicking
those priests out. Most Ukrainians in the US, Canada and Australia are
from the western provinces and have invested or sent millions of dollars
to their relatives giving them a higher standard of living and political
power, causing resentment in the rest of the country. Most of
Yushchenko's political funding comes from Catholics in the western
provinces or overseas.

You are naive to think this is some simplistic idealistic democracy
versus communists struggle. It's more a struggle between pro-West
Catholic western nationalistic Ukr and pro-Russian Orthodox eastern Ukr.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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moyehoist

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Since: Mar 10, 2004
Posts: 315



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:40 am
Post subject: Re: "Mr Gorbachov, We Put Back the Wall" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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I'm glad you enjoyed your visit to Ukraine in the 90's, .

Its far different from the 30's when my parents fled leaving their siblings and
parents behind. That was when the democracy loving kulaks (a tradition carried
by the cossacks thru the dark ages) fought the communists for control of the
breadbasket of the world. The communists won and besides eliminating 15
million of their enemies, they poured several trillion in current dollars into
their coffers to buttress their failed experiment. It also spawned someone
called Hitler.

It is also far different from the first time I visited in 1964. I wonder if
you met any of my 32 cousins or their 70 odd children. One is a leading news
commentator in Kiev.

At the risk of being rude, are you familiar with the Ukrainian Orthodox
Autocephalous Church? And by catholic, do you mean roman catholic, greek
catholic, byzantine catholic or uniate?

And what are your thoughts on the mentality that attempted to poison the
leading presidential candidate. Was the mix of ebola -like viruses "Russian
Orthodox" or "Catholic". I always thought it was the blood sucking KGBesque
thugs.

Your attempt to airbrush this 80 year history of Genocide under the guise of
theological toe-dancing is beneath contempt - and a very poor execution of
Mother Goose Marxism.

Don't quit your day job.

bmp
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user1543

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Since: Nov 23, 2004
Posts: 14



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:40 am
Post subject: Re: "Mr Gorbachov, We Put Back the Wall" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
moyehoist RemoveThis @aol.com (Moyehoist) wrote in
news:20041123231002.07763.00001213@mb-m01.aol.com:

 > I'm glad you enjoyed your visit to Ukraine in the 90's, .
 >
 > Its far different from the 30's when my parents fled leaving their
 > siblings and parents behind. That was when the democracy loving
 > kulaks (a tradition carried by the cossacks thru the dark ages) fought
 > the communists for control of the breadbasket of the world. The
 > communists won and besides eliminating 15 million of their enemies,
 > they poured several trillion in current dollars into their coffers to
 > buttress their failed experiment. It also spawned someone called
 > Hitler.
 >
 > It is also far different from the first time I visited in 1964. I
 > wonder if you met any of my 32 cousins or their 70 odd children. One
 > is a leading news commentator in Kiev.
 >
 > At the risk of being rude, are you familiar with the Ukrainian
 > Orthodox Autocephalous Church? And by catholic, do you mean roman
 > catholic, greek catholic, byzantine catholic or uniate?
 >
 > And what are your thoughts on the mentality that attempted to poison
 > the leading presidential candidate. Was the mix of ebola -like
 > viruses "Russian Orthodox" or "Catholic". I always thought it was the
 > blood sucking KGBesque thugs

 > Your attempt to airbrush this 80 year history of Genocide under the
 > guise of theological toe-dancing is beneath contempt - and a very poor
 > execution of Mother Goose Marxism.
 >
 > Don't quit your day job.
 >
 > bmp

Did you misinterprete something? No one 'air-brushed' anything, not the
"harvest of death" [to use Conquest's term] and de-khulakization of the
early '30's nor the present western catholic/eastern orthodox tension in
the country (as a Roman Catholic I could never tell the difference in what
kind of Catholic mass I was attending in Kiev anyway, Uniate I think). I
merely stated the truth, western Catholic Uke's vs Eastern Uke's. KGB or
whatever, the presidential candidate you so love was a major appartchik in
the Ukraine in the 80's as were many of his supporters in parliament.
Unlike other commies perhaps he had a change of heart and is truly
democratic or he's cynically manipulating western and progressive Ukes.

You're partially correct in that most of the ex-commies are orthodox-type
Ukes from the central and eastern parts of the country. It doesn't detract
at all from the fact that it's never been a democracy nor that the ex-
commies aren't interested in marxism but maintaining power and could care
less whether it came from lenin, the dollar or black market smuggling.

Mother Goose Marxism? ROFLMAO! What was I doing 'visiting' Ukraine? Setting
up the US Embassy's Defense Attache Office and then working for the US
Defense Attache. The Uke Ministry of Defense and intel service weren't
interested in marxist bullshit. They were interested in keeping Russian
hands off the fleet and determined they could mine the US for aid and
dollars. My "day job" now consists of working in the Russian section of a
fed agency. You need to update your anger portfolio. Wink<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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moyehoist

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Since: Mar 10, 2004
Posts: 315



(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:40 am
Post subject: Re: "Mr Gorbachov, We Put Back the Wall" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
Now that we have established credentials,
how is it that someone of your pedigree should propose that this election is
"Catholic" vs "Orthodox".

This simply is not true and the first thing we can establish is that the vast
majority of Ukes are not church goers.

The second fact is that millions of Ukes in the "russian " East are in the
streets fighting this ham handed attempt by the russians to take control of the
"breadbasket of europe" again.

If you are Roman Catholic, I respect your faith but this the tanks and thugs
that might kill Ukrainians today are not "Orthodox"

This claptrap has been circulated by some State Dept types in the past -
particularly those responsible for the Chicken Kiev sentiments of the 90's


bmp
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user1543

External


Since: Nov 23, 2004
Posts: 14



(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:40 pm
Post subject: Re: "Mr Gorbachov, We Put Back the Wall" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
moyehoist.RemoveThis@aol.com (Moyehoist) wrote in
news:20041124073547.05947.00000730@mb-m19.aol.com:

 > Now that we have established credentials,
 > how is it that someone of your pedigree should propose that this
 > election is "Catholic" vs "Orthodox".
 >
 > This simply is not true and the first thing we can establish is that
 > the vast majority of Ukes are not church goers.
 >
 > The second fact is that millions of Ukes in the "russian " East are in
 > the streets fighting this ham handed attempt by the russians to take
 > control of the "breadbasket of europe" again.
 >
 > If you are Roman Catholic, I respect your faith but this the tanks and
 > thugs that might kill Ukrainians today are not "Orthodox"
 >
 > This claptrap has been circulated by some State Dept types in the past
 > - particularly those responsible for the Chicken Kiev sentiments of
 > the 90's
 >
 >
 > bmp

Of course the tanks wouldn't be "Orthodox". The point is the government
has its support in the eastern provinces, which happen to be Orthodox and
contain a large Russian population as well. When I was there the Uke
government wouldn't allow US gov't employees access to the more western
provinces, Lvov for example was strictly off limits. I saw first hand the
tensions between eastern and western Ukraine during its first anniversary
of independence.

It would be more accurate to substitute western instead of Catholic and
eastern instead of Orthodox. The eastern provinces of course being
predominately orthodox and [tellingly] with a large Russian population.
Actual church attendance of course has little to do with it, more
precisely it's the fact western Ukes were more "Westernized" in a
cultural sense and more nationalistic [and happened to be pre-dominately
Catholic].<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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