Narrative via dialogue

don.hosek.TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:

> I'm looking for contemporary (I know Joseph Conrad very well, thank
> you), fiction in which a story is told in dialogue (and while I don't
> want pointers at Conrad, that's kind of the thing that I'm looking
> for). Pretty much I'm looking for good cases of someone conveying plot
> by telling a story to another character. I've got two works in
> progress where I'm struggling with this, one where I want to do this
> partly for stylistic reasons (and also because part of the plot is the
> listener's reaction to the story), and one where it's necessary for
> plot reasons (the person telling the story is lying and I want the
> fact that the story is given in dialogue to be a subtle clue to that
> fact). I've been tipped on Interview with a Vampire by Anne Rice and
> Shipwreck by Louis Begley. I really want something where the dialogue
> narrative is maybe half of the story and the rest is the listener's
> interactions with/reactions to the storyteller.
>

Ruth Rendell, The Crocodile Bird


Francis A. Miniter
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On Jun 29, 2:36 pm, Frank Lekens <krazy.....RemoveThis@goedlezen.invalid> wrote:
> Actually I'd hoped the OP was giving me a chance to plug William Gaddis,
> who in my mind is the undisputed master of 'novels in dialogue' -- but
> another kind. Oh well.

Tell me more about what Gaddis is doing. I should clarify that it's
not so much a case of an entire story in quotes (a la Conrad) so much
as "off-screen" action being relayed in dialogue.

A bit more about what I'm doing:
WIP 1 is a novel, and the narrative/dialogue occurs as part of a
chapter. One character tells another character a bit of her personal
history and pushes him into action. It will turn out later that she
the core of her story was a lie, so I don't want her to tell her own
story rather than have it part of the narrative voice.

WIP 2 is a short story. Again a character telling another character
(the latter is the story's narrator) part of her personal history. In
this case, the crux of the story is his reaction to her story. The
story that comes to mind as being similar in intent (because, after
all, everything has been written already) is Graham Greene's "A Hint
of an Explanation" (in Twenty-One Stories), which obviously I need to
go back and re-read, perhaps once I get home after work.
 >> Stay informed about: Narrative via dialogue 

don.hosek RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 29, 2:36 pm, Frank Lekens <krazy.... RemoveThis @goedlezen.invalid> wrote:
>> Actually I'd hoped the OP was giving me a chance to plug William Gaddis,
>> who in my mind is the undisputed master of 'novels in dialogue' -- but
>> another kind. Oh well.
>
> Tell me more about what Gaddis is doing. I should clarify that it's
> not so much a case of an entire story in quotes (a la Conrad) so much
> as "off-screen" action being relayed in dialogue.

Basically, almost everything is dialogue in a Gaddis novel ('The
Recognitions' excepted), and there's little indication of who is
speaking. You have to figure everything out. 'JR' or 'A Frolic of his
Own' are the best starting points, IMO. In fact, I need to re-read all
of his books.
 >> Stay informed about: Narrative via dialogue 

Jack Campin - bogus address wrote:
>>>> Actually I'd hoped the OP was giving me a chance to plug William
>>>> Gaddis, who in my mind is the undisputed master of 'novels in
>>>> dialogue' -- but another kind. Oh well.
>>> Tell me more about what Gaddis is doing. I should clarify that it's
>>> not so much a case of an entire story in quotes (a la Conrad) so much
>>> as "off-screen" action being relayed in dialogue.
>> Basically, almost everything is dialogue in a Gaddis novel ('The
>> Recognitions' excepted), and there's little indication of who is
>> speaking. You have to figure everything out.
>
> Ivy Compton-Burnett did the same thing. I've only read one of her
> books but liked it a lot.

thanks for the tip
 >> Stay informed about: Narrative via dialogue 

Op Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:49:54 -0400 schreef Paul Ilechko:

> don.hosek.RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
>> I'm looking for contemporary (I know Joseph Conrad very well, thank
>> you), fiction in which a story is told in dialogue (and while I don't
>> want pointers at Conrad, that's kind of the thing that I'm looking
>> for). Pretty much I'm looking for good cases of someone conveying plot
>> by telling a story to another character. I've got two works in
>> progress where I'm struggling with this, one where I want to do this
>> partly for stylistic reasons (and also because part of the plot is the
>> listener's reaction to the story), and one where it's necessary for
>> plot reasons (the person telling the story is lying and I want the
>> fact that the story is given in dialogue to be a subtle clue to that
>> fact). I've been tipped on Interview with a Vampire by Anne Rice and
>> Shipwreck by Louis Begley. I really want something where the dialogue
>> narrative is maybe half of the story and the rest is the listener's
>> interactions with/reactions to the storyteller.
>>
>
> Embers, by Sandor Marai

And most every other of his major novels, it would seem.
Of those translated into English, Casanova in Bolzano (not The Rebels). At
least two other novels of his follow the same recipe.

Actually I'd hoped the OP was giving me a chance to plug William Gaddis,
who in my mind is the undisputed master of 'novels in dialogue' -- but
another kind. Oh well.

If I remember correctly, the story in Paul Bailey's _Sugar Cane_ is also
being relayed through a narrator who gets the story in bits and pieces from
the story's protagonist. But not in the form of one long monologue.
(Anyway, my recollection is rather dim. Gorgeous novel though.)
--
Frank
(xs4all dot nl is where it's really @)
www.xs4all.nl/~fmlekens
Shakespeare-vertalingen: www.xs4all.nl/~fmlekens/Q1609
 >> Stay informed about: Narrative via dialogue 

Frank Lekens wrote:
> Op Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:49:54 -0400 schreef Paul Ilechko:
>
>> don.hosek.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
>>> I'm looking for contemporary (I know Joseph Conrad very well, thank
>>> you), fiction in which a story is told in dialogue (and while I don't
>>> want pointers at Conrad, that's kind of the thing that I'm looking
>>> for). Pretty much I'm looking for good cases of someone conveying plot
>>> by telling a story to another character. I've got two works in
>>> progress where I'm struggling with this, one where I want to do this
>>> partly for stylistic reasons (and also because part of the plot is the
>>> listener's reaction to the story), and one where it's necessary for
>>> plot reasons (the person telling the story is lying and I want the
>>> fact that the story is given in dialogue to be a subtle clue to that
>>> fact). I've been tipped on Interview with a Vampire by Anne Rice and
>>> Shipwreck by Louis Begley. I really want something where the dialogue
>>> narrative is maybe half of the story and the rest is the listener's
>>> interactions with/reactions to the storyteller.
>>>
>> Embers, by Sandor Marai
>
> And most every other of his major novels, it would seem.
> Of those translated into English, Casanova in Bolzano (not The Rebels). At
> least two other novels of his follow the same recipe.
>
> Actually I'd hoped the OP was giving me a chance to plug William Gaddis,
> who in my mind is the undisputed master of 'novels in dialogue' -- but
> another kind. Oh well.

I agree about Gaddis, and thought immediately of him, but you're right,
his use of dialogue doesn't really match the OPs requirements. JR is one
of the greatest books ever written, though ...
 >> Stay informed about: Narrative via dialogue 

> I'm looking for contemporary (I know Joseph Conrad very well, thank
> you), fiction in which a story is told in dialogue (and while I don't
> want pointers at Conrad, that's kind of the thing that I'm looking
> for). Pretty much I'm looking for good cases of someone conveying plot
> by telling a story to another character.

Coleridge's "Rime of the Ancient Mariner".

Bernardo Atxaga's "Obabakoak".

============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
 >> Stay informed about: Narrative via dialogue 

>>> Actually I'd hoped the OP was giving me a chance to plug William
>>> Gaddis, who in my mind is the undisputed master of 'novels in
>>> dialogue' -- but another kind. Oh well.
>> Tell me more about what Gaddis is doing. I should clarify that it's
>> not so much a case of an entire story in quotes (a la Conrad) so much
>> as "off-screen" action being relayed in dialogue.
> Basically, almost everything is dialogue in a Gaddis novel ('The
> Recognitions' excepted), and there's little indication of who is
> speaking. You have to figure everything out.

Ivy Compton-Burnett did the same thing. I've only read one of her
books but liked it a lot.

============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
 >> Stay informed about: Narrative via dialogue 

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 18:59:38 -0400 Paul Ilechko wrote:

> Jack Campin - bogus address wrote:
>>>>> Actually I'd hoped the OP was giving me a chance to plug William
>>>>> Gaddis, who in my mind is the undisputed master of 'novels in
>>>>> dialogue' -- but another kind. Oh well.
>>>> Tell me more about what Gaddis is doing. I should clarify that it's
>>>> not so much a case of an entire story in quotes (a la Conrad) so much
>>>> as "off-screen" action being relayed in dialogue.
>>> Basically, almost everything is dialogue in a Gaddis novel ('The
>>> Recognitions' excepted), and there's little indication of who is
>>> speaking. You have to figure everything out.
>>
>> Ivy Compton-Burnett did the same thing. I've only read one of her
>> books but liked it a lot.
>
> thanks for the tip

Yes, very different kind of books, though. Totally different tone. British
upper class lethal sarcasm, stiff upper lip aphorisms with a sting.
I find them slightly harder going than Gaddis (and I can't take too many of
these short novels at a time), but they are wonderful.

As for Gaddis, I always nominate Carpenter's Gothic as the best starting
point. For me, it always feels a little like his Portrait of the Artist to
JR's Ulysses.

JR is the one I like best. But it's much longer. Carpenter's Gothic follows
the exact same recipe, but at a little over 200 pages it's a good
introduction. Plus it was the first book of his that I read, which also
plays a part.

A Frolic of His Own is terrific too, but it also is rather long. And it
does suffer a little bit, I think, from having huge chunks of other text
material inserted. First there are legal proceedings, really rather lengthy
pieces. And huge chunks of a play or film script written by one of the
protagonists.

This script is problematic: on the one hand you get the feeling it's
supposed to show how this character can't really write, it's supposed to be
a failed script. On the other hand, I gather they are pieces from an actual
script that Gaddis actually wrote in the 60s - so he can't really think it
all *that* bad. (It isn't all *that* bad, either.) But what to think of it?

But then, that goes for much of what's going on in Gaddis' novels: what to
think of it.

And yes, as Paul said: he just gives dialogue, without any 'he saids' or
'she saids' thrown in. You have to figure out who's speaking from their
tone of voice or from what they're saying. The only thing you get, apart
from this really *terrifically* rendered direct speech, are some passages
describing characters' actions -- and those are in a rather purple style,
faintly reminiscent of Faulkner. Because of that they don't always make it
*easier* to figure out what's happening.

The novels are very satiric, and their tone often reminds me of Waugh or
Dickens too. They're Dickensian anyway (certainly JR) in their scope, the
breadth of its criticism of society *and* its rather large cast.

I'm always surprised that, although he's generally considered (I think) one
of the great postmodernists, of the generation of Pynchon, Coover and
Barth, he seems the least well known and the least read -- when actually
he's by much the most accessible of the bunch, to my mind at least. I for
one never manage to get very far into Pynchon's double-deckers.
--
Frank
(xs4all dot nl is where it's really @)
www.xs4all.nl/~fmlekens/english.htm
Shakespeare in Dutch: www.xs4all.nl/~fmlekens/Q1609/
 >> Stay informed about: Narrative via dialogue 

Frank Lekens wrote:

> As for Gaddis, I always nominate Carpenter's Gothic as the best starting
> point. For me, it always feels a little like his Portrait of the Artist to
> JR's Ulysses.
>
> JR is the one I like best. But it's much longer. Carpenter's Gothic follows
> the exact same recipe, but at a little over 200 pages it's a good
> introduction. Plus it was the first book of his that I read, which also
> plays a part.

But don't you think the humor in JR makes it easier as a starting point?
(And it is absolutely hysterically funny at times).
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On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 09:00:50 -0400 Paul Ilechko wrote:

> Frank Lekens wrote:
>
>> As for Gaddis, I always nominate Carpenter's Gothic as the best starting
>> point. For me, it always feels a little like his Portrait of the Artist to
>> JR's Ulysses.
>>
>> JR is the one I like best. But it's much longer. Carpenter's Gothic follows
>> the exact same recipe, but at a little over 200 pages it's a good
>> introduction. Plus it was the first book of his that I read, which also
>> plays a part.
>
> But don't you think the humor in JR makes it easier as a starting point?
> (And it is absolutely hysterically funny at times).

Yes, but I found Carpenter's Gothic rather funny too. Especially Paul's
rants.
OTOH the humour of that is grimmer. Paul is such an idiot and his life
destroying energy is so overwhelming (esp. for poor Liz) that it sometimes
makes you want to cry rather than laugh, maybe.

(Ehm... I'm talking about the Paul in Carpenter's Gothic.)

So okay, in that sense maybe JR is a better choice.

Though of course both books are immoral.
--
Frank
(xs4all dot nl is where it's really @)
www.xs4all.nl/~fmlekens/english.htm
Shakespeare in Dutch: www.xs4all.nl/~fmlekens/Q1609/
 >> Stay informed about: Narrative via dialogue 

Frank Lekens wrote:

> Though of course both books are immoral.

Thankfully ...
 >> Stay informed about: Narrative via dialogue 

Frank Lekens wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 09:00:50 -0400 Paul Ilechko wrote:
>
>> Frank Lekens wrote:
>>
>>> As for Gaddis, I always nominate Carpenter's Gothic as the best starting
>>> point. For me, it always feels a little like his Portrait of the Artist to
>>> JR's Ulysses.
>>>
>>> JR is the one I like best. But it's much longer. Carpenter's Gothic follows
>>> the exact same recipe, but at a little over 200 pages it's a good
>>> introduction. Plus it was the first book of his that I read, which also
>>> plays a part.
>> But don't you think the humor in JR makes it easier as a starting point?
>> (And it is absolutely hysterically funny at times).
>
> Yes, but I found Carpenter's Gothic rather funny too. Especially Paul's
> rants.
> OTOH the humour of that is grimmer. Paul is such an idiot and his life
> destroying energy is so overwhelming (esp. for poor Liz) that it sometimes
> makes you want to cry rather than laugh, maybe.
>

I seem to have misplaced my copy of CG - I'll have to get a new one. I
think it's time to do more re-reading and less reading of new books.

BTW, to anyone paying any attention to this discussion, if such a person
exists, I would suggest *not* starting your discovery of Gaddis with
Agape Agape.
 >> Stay informed about: Narrative via dialogue