Nicieza X-Force returns in September!

Samy Merchi <samy.DeleteThis@iki.fi> wrote in message
news:Xns94B6DF1803464samyikifi@130.232.1.14...
> jr70.DeleteThis@prism.gatech.edu (Jerry B. Ray, Jr.) wrote in
>
> > The difference you seem to be missing is that of intentional,
> > stylistic distortion (Sienkiewicz) and a simple inability to draw
> > (Liefield).
>
> I'm not missing it. I either think it's an insignificant difference, or a
> nonexistent one. Without being telepathic, it's difficult to know, after
> all, whether Liefeld intends his distortions or not.
>
> Intentionality does not affect the pleasure derived from art. If somebody
> does a piece I find ugly, it sure as hell won't be saved by the merit of
> being intentionally exaggerated. The contrary is also true: if somebody
> does a piece I *don't* find ugly, it won't be ruined by the merit of it
> being accidental, rather than intentional.
>
> > dynamic, exciting qualities his art may have possessed were quickly
> > overwhelmed by the innumerable problems it also possessed (no feet,
> > no backgrounds, impossible anatomy, inconsistent perspective, no
> > ability to keep minor details like whether a character is wearing a
> > shirt or not consistent from panl to panel...).
>
> I find it amusing how people always keep bringing up the shirt incident.
> Were there other similar errors made? It almost makes it seem like there
> never were any other such errors, if the amount people keep harping on
> the 'shirt gaffe' is anything to judge by.
>

Liefeld's artistic flaws didn't seem to be as bad while he was with Marvel.
His New Mutants stuff is okay, and I thought he was improving with X-Force.
It was when he made the move to Image that his work started to suffer, and
it hasn't really ever recovered. Cable #75 remains one of the ugliest
physical objects I have ever beheld in my life.

- Nathan P. Mahney -
 >> Stay informed about: Nicieza X-Force returns in September! 

In article <Xns94B75B88A7A86samyikifi.RemoveThis@130.232.1.14>,
Samy Merchi <samy.RemoveThis@iki.fi> wrote:

>What this ultimately seems to boil down to is, 'we like certain artists,
>and label them 'good', so it's okay for them to do thing x, but we don't
>like certain artists, so we label them 'bad' so it's not okay for them to
>do the very same thing'. And it's a philosophy I don't subscribe to.

You. Are. Not. Listening. Certainly, there's a WIDE range of styles
in art, and lots of room for subjectivity and personal taste. But there
are also certain measurable, technical aspects to art, especially art
that is not done for its own sake, but to an end (in this case, to
convey stories in comic books). And in those measurable, technical
categories, Liefeld's art is lacking. He's a BAD ARTIST because his art
doesn't meet the technical requirements of the purpose to which it is
being applied.

Picasso would probably be a lousy comic artist, as well.

>There are a lot of artists that use distortion, and get called 'good' for
>it. Liefeld just gets the opposite, and the vibe I'm getting from most
>peoples' responses is that what's allowed for some artists isn't allowed
>for him, because 'we don't like him so he's bad'.

Look, I don't have anything against Liefeld personally. I don't know him,
I don't really follow his business dealings or anything, so I don't have
any sort of vendetta going here. So you're not getting that "vibe" from
me. He may be a decent character designer; his pinups may well have
an exciting look to them; but as a comic book artist, he's terrible to
the point of surrealism. (Just look at the panel of Steve Rogers "walking
the invisible tightrope in his kitchen" from that article for which the
link was posted yesterday.)

You're not really making any arguments in favor of Liefeld beyond "I like
his work" and "everybody who doesn't like his work is just blinded by
their dislike of him." I've presented specific, technical deficiencies in
his work, and others have provided examples. I realize you're not going
to change your mind (and like I said earlier, if you like him, good for you),
but you really should at least acknowledge that his work, from a technical
point, is bad.

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
 >> Stay informed about: Nicieza X-Force returns in September! 

In article <Xns94B7634FDF5E5samyikifi.DeleteThis@130.232.1.14>,
Samy Merchi <samy.DeleteThis@iki.fi> wrote:

>Which is more than okay as long as you're talking about your own
>subjective feelings. It's only when people start talking about
>'objectively bad' in reference to art that I start to cough.

I'm a lousy guitar player and a lousy singer. I like to do both, but by
any standards of technical proficiency, I'm objectively bad. That doesn't
mean that my girlfriend doesn't enjoy listening to me try to sing or play,
but I have no illusions that I'm doing a good job. "Art" is NOT always
a completely subjective experience. There are legitimate, quantifiable,
technical standards which can be applied to art. The art has to serve
the purpose to which it is applied.

Bill Sienkiewicz is fine on "Demon Bear" in _New Mutants_, but I wouldn't
want him illustrating a technical manual. Liefeld may be fine doing
pinups, but I don't want him illustrating comics that I'm reading.

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
 >> Stay informed about: Nicieza X-Force returns in September! 

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:51:56 +0000 (UTC), Samy Merchi <samy DeleteThis @iki.fi>
wrote:

>I'm not missing it. I either think it's an insignificant difference, or a
>nonexistent one. Without being telepathic, it's difficult to know, after
>all, whether Liefeld intends his distortions or not.

I doubt it's meant ironically.

>Intentionality does not affect the pleasure derived from art. If somebody
>does a piece I find ugly, it sure as hell won't be saved by the merit of
>being intentionally exaggerated. The contrary is also true: if somebody
>does a piece I *don't* find ugly, it won't be ruined by the merit of it
>being accidental, rather than intentional.

>> dynamic, exciting qualities his art may have possessed were quickly
>> overwhelmed by the innumerable problems it also possessed (no feet,
>> no backgrounds, impossible anatomy, inconsistent perspective, no
>> ability to keep minor details like whether a character is wearing a
>> shirt or not consistent from panl to panel...).

>I find it amusing how people always keep bringing up the shirt incident.
>Were there other similar errors made? It almost makes it seem like there
>never were any other such errors, if the amount people keep harping on
>the 'shirt gaffe' is anything to judge by.

>Similarly, backgrounds.

<snip>

I humbly direct you to the Judgment Day LS (the reviewers had a field
day over this one).

1) Characters sprout shoulder pads, discard them, gain bracelets,
gloves, lose them, etc etc.

2) The backgrounds show no consistency from one panel to another.
Furniture moves from one side of the room to another, changing
orientation as they go ....

3) The physical universe does not seem to be three-dimensional space -
angles are all wrong, space is weirdly folded, so that someone lying
on the floor looks like they're floating at an angle off the ground
...
 >> Stay informed about: Nicieza X-Force returns in September! 

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 06:56:33 +0000 (UTC), Samy Merchi <samy DeleteThis @iki.fi>
wrote:

>Slay <lapierre0346 DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote in

>> Samy Merchi <samy DeleteThis @iki.fi> wrote in

>>> Besides, lots of more surreal artists (Bodganove, Sienkiewicz
>>> et al.) fluctuate proportions for effect all the time and don't get
>>> called on it.

>> That's because they're good.

>What this ultimately seems to boil down to is, 'we like certain artists,
>and label them 'good', so it's okay for them to do thing x, but we don't
>like certain artists, so we label them 'bad' so it's not okay for them to
>do the very same thing'. And it's a philosophy I don't subscribe to.

>There are a lot of artists that use distortion, and get called 'good' for
>it. Liefeld just gets the opposite, and the vibe I'm getting from most
>peoples' responses is that what's allowed for some artists isn't allowed
>for him, because 'we don't like him so he's bad'.

You can tell, if an artist knows about anatomy, because of the way,
s/he uses distortion, for effect, and effectively. It's the old case
of you have to know the rule before you break the rules.
 >> Stay informed about: Nicieza X-Force returns in September! 

clJUNKv1.TakeThisOut@balcab.ch (CleV) wrote in
news:4064b742.9656863@news.hispeed.ch:

> 3) The physical universe does not seem to be three-dimensional space -
> angles are all wrong, space is weirdly folded, so that someone lying
> on the floor looks like they're floating at an angle off the ground

It sounds Lovecraftian, but without the "good".
 >> Stay informed about: Nicieza X-Force returns in September! 

Okay, my damned name is in the header, so I should be allowed my say...

Can all of you stop talking about a book that won't be coming out for months
and talk about a book that's out right now...

.... namely Cable & Deadpool #1.

Thank you.

-- fabian
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fabnic DeleteThis @aol.com (FabNic) wrote in
news:20040327103450.22202.00000225@mb-m22.aol.com:

> Okay, my damned name is in the header, so I should be allowed my
> say...
>
> Can all of you stop talking about a book that won't be coming out for
> months and talk about a book that's out right now...
>
> ... namely Cable & Deadpool #1.

OK, I actually liked Cable & Deadpool. On the plus side, anyone can do
the covers should someone's attention wander. But X-Force? He could
screw up the whole damn thing if he doesn't stay on the ball! (OK, he
might well screw it up anyway.)
 >> Stay informed about: Nicieza X-Force returns in September! 

On 27 Mar 2004 15:34:50 GMT,fabnic@aol.com (FabNic) wrote

>Okay, my damned name is in the header, so I should be allowed my say...
>
>Can all of you stop talking about a book that won't be coming out for months
>and talk about a book that's out right now...
>
>... namely Cable & Deadpool #1.
>
If only for the line where Wade takes the piss out of Cable's names
and then asks "or are you simply going by Priscilla now?" was worth
the price of entry alone!

Never ben a great fan of the two characters, but, I'm gonna give this
one a try...

Christian
--
"The Dark Phoenix may have been a threat to all life in the universe...
But she had great taste in costumes." (Rachel Summers Excalibur #65)
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On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 08:10:45 +0000, Paul O'Brien
<paul.DeleteThis@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote:

 >In message <20040322013450.26284.00000150.DeleteThis@mb-m23.aol.com>, The Black
 >Guardian <blakgard.DeleteThis@aol.coma.org> writes
  >>
  >>I'd settle for stick-figure theatre.
 >
 >Well, it's not going to be that far off.

It will most certainly lack any of the basic storytelling skills found
in stick figure theatre. It will be as far from stick figures as Luke
Ross is from Alex Ross.

MH<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Michael Hoskin wrote:
 > On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 08:10:45 +0000, Paul O'Brien
   >>>I'd settle for stick-figure theatre.
  >>Well, it's not going to be that far off.
 > It will most certainly lack any of the basic storytelling skills found
 > in stick figure theatre. It will be as far from stick figures as Luke
 > Ross is from Alex Ross.

The way it is drawn, there is a stick stuck somewhere ...
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk ..."
-till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
consul RemoveThis @INVALIDdolphins-cove.com ((remove the INVALID to email))<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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