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Girish

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Since: Dec 06, 2006
Posts: 4



(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:12 am
Post subject: Nightfall
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov (more info?)

Isaac Asimov. Nightfall. 1941

Well, I am a huge Asimov fan but call me unimpressed. N. B. I am not
claiming any dazzling insights or anything. Just my honest-to-goodness
reaction to what is claimed to be his best work. Ever. Smile

Weaknesses:
In all the stories read by me so far in this collection, all the
authors felt the need to introduce an ignoramus character so that the
other characters can lecture at him and simultaneously bring the reader

up to speed on the world being built by the writer. I thought that
maybe the idea of using Letters, books of revelation, etc hadn't yet
occurred to writers. But then I remembered that Bram Stoker's Dracula,
heavily relied on such tropes. So Asimov doesn't get out of jail on
this one. Smile


Asimov's ignoramus character really made this story ring hollow. A
journalist, pouring vitriolic ridicule on a scientist, doesn't even
know what he is ridiculing?
And he is actually a heroic and well-respected journalist? Smile


Asimov takes pain to establish that these people are exactly like us,
with approximately the same cultural and scientific achievements as us.

And yet the scientists are unable to convince people to stay at home
during a solar eclipse!


Well, I have lived through a solar eclipse myself and I remember the
hype, the hoopla and how brilliantly and successfully the scientists,
the press et al had succeeded in convincing us that - for our own good
- we needed to stay indoors and not look at the Sun directly. We have
arranged a live telecast on TV. Please watch it on TV!


A very minor weakness of course is that in a multiple Sun system, even
a dozen Newtons over 400 years probably wouldn't be able to figure out
the laws of gravity. Smile But I will grant Asimov this point.
Lots of good reading still left!

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oj3usmc

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Since: Mar 03, 2004
Posts: 265



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Nightfall [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Girish" <girishbhat6620.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:

> Isaac Asimov. Nightfall. 1941
>
>Well, I am a huge Asimov fan but call me unimpressed. N. B. I am not
>claiming any dazzling insights or anything. Just my honest-to-goodness
>reaction to what is claimed to be his best work. Ever. Smile

Most popular in reader polls. Asimov himself, of course, never
considered it his "best work", it was written early in his career
when he was barely in his 20s and he knew he had done tons of
better work over the next 40-mumble years.

I will not rebut anything, enough has been written on "Nightfall"
and enough of those writings are available on the web to sate
anyone. However, I do want to suggest one thing to you about one
of your comments.

>Asimov's ignoramus character really made this story ring hollow. A
>journalist, pouring vitriolic ridicule on a scientist, doesn't even
>know what he is ridiculing?
>And he is actually a heroic and well-respected journalist? Smile

Remember when the story was written. ~1940, 30+ years before
Woodstein/Watergate. "Well-respected journalist" was an oxymoron
in that era. See any one of the various films made from the play
"The Front Page". The typical reporter [the name "journalist"
was not in common use] was seen as a hard-drinking, expense
account padding, ne'er-do-well who would never make a living in
the real world.

Further, then as now, reporters are a product of their society,
its knowledge, mores, etc., whatever their reportorial cynicism
might be about such. Remember, during the entire presidency of
FDR, 1932-1944, his handicaps resulting from polio were never a
matter of press discussion. The fact of their existence was
known to a lot of people in the country who knew FDR;s history,
but it was never made a "matter of public record" by the press,
with photos and film of him in his wheel chair, or using canes to
mount the podium.

The reporter in Nightfall was a product of his society, seeing
the protagonist scientists as charlatans, foisting a scam on the
public.

Having said all that, I too winced at IA's handling of the
character, but born in 1943, I knew enough about the era IA grew
up in to know whence it was drawn from.

Which is a continuing problem with reading "classic" science
fiction. You have to keep in mind, and ideally be familiar with,
what the world and the US was like *when the piece was written*.
SF authors don't write in a vacuum. Like the reporters I
addressed above, they are a product of their time/society.

For me, starting reading SF in the mid-1950s, I had a lot of
trouble reading the "old classics" of the 19-teens and 1920s.
It was only after I got older, and helped along by IA's annotated
collection "Before the Golden Age", that I was able to understand
and appreciate them. They still seem "quaint" to me, taken in
terms of the SF of the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and now 00s, but I
understand the milieu in which they were written and appreciate
why they are considered classics.

[PS. I am not among those who consider "Nightfall" IA's best,
but am among those that consider it a real SF classic.]

--
OJ III

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Girish

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Since: Dec 06, 2006
Posts: 4



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Nightfall [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Ogden Johnson III wrote:
> "Girish" <girishbhat6620.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Isaac Asimov. Nightfall. 1941
> >
> >Well, I am a huge Asimov fan but call me unimpressed. N. B. I am not
> >claiming any dazzling insights or anything. Just my honest-to-goodness
> >reaction to what is claimed to be his best work. Ever. Smile
>
> Most popular in reader polls. Asimov himself, of course, never
> considered it his "best work", it was written early in his career
> when he was barely in his 20s and he knew he had done tons of
> better work over the next 40-mumble years.
>
> I will not rebut anything, enough has been written on "Nightfall"
> and enough of those writings are available on the web to sate
> anyone. However, I do want to suggest one thing to you about one
> of your comments.
>
> >Asimov's ignoramus character really made this story ring hollow. A
> >journalist, pouring vitriolic ridicule on a scientist, doesn't even
> >know what he is ridiculing?
> >And he is actually a heroic and well-respected journalist? Smile
>
> Remember when the story was written. ~1940, 30+ years before
> Woodstein/Watergate. "Well-respected journalist" was an oxymoron
> in that era. See any one of the various films made from the play
> "The Front Page". The typical reporter [the name "journalist"
> was not in common use] was seen as a hard-drinking, expense
> account padding, ne'er-do-well who would never make a living in
> the real world.
>
> Further, then as now, reporters are a product of their society,
> its knowledge, mores, etc., whatever their reportorial cynicism
> might be about such. Remember, during the entire presidency of
> FDR, 1932-1944, his handicaps resulting from polio were never a
> matter of press discussion. The fact of their existence was
> known to a lot of people in the country who knew FDR;s history,
> but it was never made a "matter of public record" by the press,
> with photos and film of him in his wheel chair, or using canes to
> mount the podium.
>
> The reporter in Nightfall was a product of his society, seeing
> the protagonist scientists as charlatans, foisting a scam on the
> public.
>
> Having said all that, I too winced at IA's handling of the
> character, but born in 1943, I knew enough about the era IA grew
> up in to know whence it was drawn from.
>
> Which is a continuing problem with reading "classic" science
> fiction. You have to keep in mind, and ideally be familiar with,
> what the world and the US was like *when the piece was written*.
> SF authors don't write in a vacuum. Like the reporters I
> addressed above, they are a product of their time/society.
>
> For me, starting reading SF in the mid-1950s, I had a lot of
> trouble reading the "old classics" of the 19-teens and 1920s.
> It was only after I got older, and helped along by IA's annotated
> collection "Before the Golden Age", that I was able to understand
> and appreciate them. They still seem "quaint" to me, taken in
> terms of the SF of the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and now 00s, but I
> understand the milieu in which they were written and appreciate
> why they are considered classics.
>
> [PS. I am not among those who consider "Nightfall" IA's best,
> but am among those that consider it a real SF classic.]
>
> --
> OJ III
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Girish

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Since: Dec 06, 2006
Posts: 4



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Nightfall [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Ogden Johnson III wrote:
> Which is a continuing problem with reading "classic" science
> fiction. You have to keep in mind, and ideally be familiar with,
> what the world and the US was like *when the piece was written*.
> SF authors don't write in a vacuum. Like the reporters I
> addressed above, they are a product of their time/society.
>

Amen to that. I think recently William Gibson stated that science
fiction is never about the future. It is always about the society and
time in which it is written.

Thanks for the response!
Girish
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Girish

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Since: Dec 06, 2006
Posts: 4



(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:18 am
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Eef Hartman wrote:
> Girish <girishbhat6620.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Well, I am a huge Asimov fan but call me unimpressed. N. B. I am not
> > claiming any dazzling insights or anything. Just my honest-to-goodness
> > reaction to what is claimed to be his best work. Ever. Smile
>
> You _do_ know it was only his 3rd published story?
> He wasn't very good in describing real people then, SF was still very much
> "idea-oriented".
> --

Hey, why would I start criticizing a man who has given me so much
pleasure?
I am just interested to know what other people felt. Smile
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user253

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Since: Feb 18, 2004
Posts: 21



(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:23 am
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Girish <girishbhat6620 DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, I am a huge Asimov fan but call me unimpressed. N. B. I am not
> claiming any dazzling insights or anything. Just my honest-to-goodness
> reaction to what is claimed to be his best work. Ever. Smile

You _do_ know it was only his 3rd published story?
He wasn't very good in describing real people then, SF was still very much
"idea-oriented".
--
********************************************************************
** Eef Hartman, Delft University of Technology, dept. EWI/TW **
** e-mail: E.J.M.Hartman DeleteThis @math.tudelft.nl, fax: +31-15-278 7295 **
** snail-mail: P.O. Box 5031, 2600 GA Delft, The Netherlands **
********************************************************************
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Joseph Nebus

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Since: Dec 05, 2006
Posts: 45



(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:48 pm
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"Girish" <girishbhat6620.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> writes:

> Isaac Asimov. Nightfall. 1941

>Asimov's ignoramus character really made this story ring hollow. A
>journalist, pouring vitriolic ridicule on a scientist, doesn't even
>know what he is ridiculing?
>And he is actually a heroic and well-respected journalist? Smile

That'd be as ridiculous as H L Mencken stirring up controversy
over the details of construction of the Mount Palomar observatory even
though he didn't know which end of a telescope to put his eye to, just
because he knew controvery was exciting and he had a source who had
endless criticisms of the project and knew how to put them in short
and pithy quotes.

--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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tsbrueni

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Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 895



(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:11 am
Post subject: Re: Nightfall [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov, others (more info?)

Girish wrote:

> Isaac Asimov. Nightfall. 1941
>
> Well, I am a huge Asimov fan but call me unimpressed. N. B. I am not
> claiming any dazzling insights or anything. Just my honest-to-goodness
> reaction to what is claimed to be his best work. Ever. Smile
>
> Weaknesses:
> In all the stories read by me so far in this collection, all the
> authors felt the need to introduce an ignoramus character so that the
> other characters can lecture at him and simultaneously bring the reader
>
> up to speed on the world being built by the writer. I thought that
> maybe the idea of using Letters, books of revelation, etc hadn't yet
> occurred to writers. But then I remembered that Bram Stoker's Dracula,
> heavily relied on such tropes. So Asimov doesn't get out of jail on
> this one. Smile
>
> Asimov's ignoramus character really made this story ring hollow. A
> journalist, pouring vitriolic ridicule on a scientist, doesn't even
> know what he is ridiculing?
> And he is actually a heroic and well-respected journalist? Smile

Said scientist was confirming the doctrimes of a religious cult. Its for
that reason that Theremon was ridiculing that scientist.
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tsbrueni

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Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 895



(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:13 am
Post subject: Re: Nightfall [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov, others (more info?)

Girish wrote:

> Isaac Asimov. Nightfall. 1941
>
> Well, I am a huge Asimov fan but call me unimpressed. N. B. I am not
> claiming any dazzling insights or anything. Just my honest-to-goodness
> reaction to what is claimed to be his best work. Ever. Smile
>
> Weaknesses:
> In all the stories read by me so far in this collection, all the
> authors felt the need to introduce an ignoramus character so that the
> other characters can lecture at him and simultaneously bring the reader
>
> up to speed on the world being built by the writer. I thought that
> maybe the idea of using Letters, books of revelation, etc hadn't yet
> occurred to writers. But then I remembered that Bram Stoker's Dracula,
> heavily relied on such tropes. So Asimov doesn't get out of jail on
> this one. Smile
>
> Asimov's ignoramus character really made this story ring hollow. A
> journalist, pouring vitriolic ridicule on a scientist, doesn't even
> know what he is ridiculing?
> And he is actually a heroic and well-respected journalist? Smile
>
> Asimov takes pain to establish that these people are exactly like us,
> with approximately the same cultural and scientific achievements as us.
>
> And yet the scientists are unable to convince people to stay at home
> during a solar eclipse!

Eclipses were so rare that the scientists couldn't get anyone to believe
that such things were possible!
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Jon Schild

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Since: Jun 19, 2007
Posts: 14



(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:16 am
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Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> Girish wrote:
>
>
>> Isaac Asimov. Nightfall. 1941
>>
>>Well, I am a huge Asimov fan but call me unimpressed. N. B. I am not
>>claiming any dazzling insights or anything. Just my honest-to-goodness
>>reaction to what is claimed to be his best work. Ever. Smile
>>
>>Weaknesses:
>>In all the stories read by me so far in this collection, all the
>>authors felt the need to introduce an ignoramus character so that the
>>other characters can lecture at him and simultaneously bring the reader
>>
>>up to speed on the world being built by the writer. I thought that
>>maybe the idea of using Letters, books of revelation, etc hadn't yet
>>occurred to writers. But then I remembered that Bram Stoker's Dracula,
>>heavily relied on such tropes. So Asimov doesn't get out of jail on
>>this one. Smile
>>
>>Asimov's ignoramus character really made this story ring hollow. A
>>journalist, pouring vitriolic ridicule on a scientist, doesn't even
>>know what he is ridiculing?
>>And he is actually a heroic and well-respected journalist? Smile
>>
>>Asimov takes pain to establish that these people are exactly like us,
>>with approximately the same cultural and scientific achievements as us.
>>
>>And yet the scientists are unable to convince people to stay at home
>>during a solar eclipse!
>
>
> Eclipses were so rare that the scientists couldn't get anyone to believe
> that such things were possible!
>

The story does not describe reaction to an eclipse. This is, as the
title says, nightfall. The rare darkness that rarely appears because of
the multiple star system in which the planet exists. None of the people
alive at the time of the story had ever seen night before. They had
never seen stars before. It is a once-in-several-lifetimes event.
Everyone wants to see what it is like.

--
The problem is not that the world is full of fools, it's that lightning
isn't being distributed correctly.
-- Mark Twain
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cryptoguy

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Since: Oct 08, 2008
Posts: 5



(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:17 am
Post subject: Re: Nightfall [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Oct 8, 10:16 am, Jon Schild <j... RemoveThis @xmission.com> wrote:
> Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> > Girish wrote:
>
> >> Isaac Asimov. Nightfall. 1941
>
> >>Well, I am a huge Asimov fan but call me unimpressed. N. B. I am not
> >>claiming any dazzling insights or anything. Just my honest-to-goodness
> >>reaction to what is claimed to be his best work. Ever. Smile
>
> >>Weaknesses:
> >>In all the stories read by me so far in this collection, all the
> >>authors felt the need to introduce an ignoramus character so that the
> >>other characters can lecture at him and simultaneously bring the reader
>
> >>up to speed on the world being built by the writer. I thought that
> >>maybe the idea of using  Letters, books of revelation, etc hadn't yet
> >>occurred to writers. But then I remembered that Bram Stoker's Dracula,
> >>heavily relied on such tropes. So Asimov doesn't get out of jail on
> >>this one. Smile
>
> >>Asimov's ignoramus character really made this story ring hollow. A
> >>journalist, pouring vitriolic ridicule on a scientist, doesn't even
> >>know what he is ridiculing?
> >>And he is actually a heroic and well-respected journalist? Smile
>
> >>Asimov takes pain to establish that these people are exactly like us,
> >>with approximately the same cultural and scientific achievements as us.
>
> >>And yet the scientists are unable to convince people to stay at home
> >>during a solar eclipse!
>
> > Eclipses were so rare that the scientists couldn't get anyone to believe
> > that such things were possible!
>
> The story does not describe reaction to an eclipse.  This is, as the
> title says, nightfall. The rare darkness that rarely appears because of
> the multiple star system in which the planet exists.  None of the people
> alive at the time of the story had ever seen night before.  They had
> never seen stars before.  It is a once-in-several-lifetimes event.
> Everyone wants to see what it is like.

This is incorrect. This situation was that all but one of the multiple
suns were on one side of the planet - only one illuminated the
protagonists' side. This was then eclipsed by a planet they
had not known existed, lost in the daytime glare.

I don't have the text in front of me. I find it hard to envisage
the orbital mechanics that would allow a single eclipse to last
long enough for the entire planet to experience a long period
of darkness. But that's a different problem....

Peter Trei
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Jordan179

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Since: Apr 20, 2008
Posts: 12



(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:15 pm
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On Oct 8, 7:16 am, Jon Schild <j... RemoveThis @xmission.com> wrote:
>
> The story does not describe reaction to an eclipse.  This is, as the
> title says, nightfall. The rare darkness that rarely appears because of
> the multiple star system in which the planet exists.  None of the people
> alive at the time of the story had ever seen night before.  They had
> never seen stars before.  It is a once-in-several-lifetimes event.
> Everyone wants to see what it is like.

Actually, wasn't it a combination of several suns having set _and_ a
total eclipse of the remaining sun occurring at the same time?

- Jordan
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cryptoguy

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Since: Oct 08, 2008
Posts: 5



(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:23 pm
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On Oct 10, 2:20 pm, nebu....DeleteThis@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) wrote:
> cryptoguy <treifam....DeleteThis@gmail.com> writes:
> >On Oct 8, 10:16=A0am, Jon Schild <j....DeleteThis@xmission.com> wrote:
> >This is incorrect. This situation was that all but one of the multiple
> >suns were on one side of the planet - only one illuminated the
> >protagonists' side. This was then eclipsed by a planet they
> >had not known existed, lost in the daytime glare.
> >I don't have the text in front of me. I find it hard to envisage
> >the orbital mechanics that would allow a single eclipse to last
> >long enough for the entire planet to experience a long period
> >of darkness. But that's a different problem....
>
>         It doesn't need to be a long eclipse, specifically: we know
> from the amusement park ride backstory that short periods of darkness
> are deeply disturbing to the Lagashians (I forget if it was Lagash or
> Kalgash; it changed in the novella-to-remake shift and don't ask me
> which way).  And it's just as totality is reached that the fires in
> the city start.  
>
>         The *challenge* is explaining an eclipse big enough to cover
> a wide swath of civilization while not having the second planet/moon
> occasionally eclipse one of the suns while the others are in the sky.  
> (I'll give as a freebie the assumption civilization happens to be on
> that side of the planet; a one-hemisphere inhabited world isn't by
> itself obviously absurd.  Blish used that as an important component
> of _Get Out Of My Sky_, although there the one-hemisphere planet is
> explicitly part of the backstory.)  

The idea of a one-hemisphere civilisation hadn't occurred to me.
I haven't read the book, but I did read the short story decades
ago, and had a refresher when it was read on EscapePod a
while back.

I don't recall any mention of civilisation being single-hemisphere.
Earth eclipses only cover a fairly small swath - perhaps
100 miles across? For the eclipse to cover the entire civilized
area it would have to be very large.

The eclipses take place only every 2049 years, and the hidden planet
is close enough to affect the orbit of the world in the story.

To be blunt, I don't think the whole thing holds together.

Peter Trei
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Joseph Nebus

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Since: Dec 05, 2006
Posts: 45



(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:20 pm
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cryptoguy <treifamily.DeleteThis@gmail.com> writes:

>On Oct 8, 10:16=A0am, Jon Schild <j....DeleteThis@xmission.com> wrote:

>This is incorrect. This situation was that all but one of the multiple
>suns were on one side of the planet - only one illuminated the
>protagonists' side. This was then eclipsed by a planet they
>had not known existed, lost in the daytime glare.

>I don't have the text in front of me. I find it hard to envisage
>the orbital mechanics that would allow a single eclipse to last
>long enough for the entire planet to experience a long period
>of darkness. But that's a different problem....

It doesn't need to be a long eclipse, specifically: we know
from the amusement park ride backstory that short periods of darkness
are deeply disturbing to the Lagashians (I forget if it was Lagash or
Kalgash; it changed in the novella-to-remake shift and don't ask me
which way). And it's just as totality is reached that the fires in
the city start.

The *challenge* is explaining an eclipse big enough to cover
a wide swath of civilization while not having the second planet/moon
occasionally eclipse one of the suns while the others are in the sky.
(I'll give as a freebie the assumption civilization happens to be on
that side of the planet; a one-hemisphere inhabited world isn't by
itself obviously absurd. Blish used that as an important component
of _Get Out Of My Sky_, although there the one-hemisphere planet is
explicitly part of the backstory.)

Possibly if these 'daytime' eclipses are rare events they'd
be in the realm of legend. The Lagashians had only recently worked
out Newtonian gravity, which would do much to leave them ready to
forecast and explain these events; but until they had a model to
explain why one of the suns would sometimes vanish it'd be hard to
*observe* those vanishings.

--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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cryptoguy

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Since: Oct 08, 2008
Posts: 5



(Msg. 15) Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:22 pm
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On Oct 10, 4:08 pm, nebu... DeleteThis @-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) wrote:
> cryptoguy <treifam... DeleteThis @gmail.com> writes:
> >On Oct 10, 2:20=A0pm, nebu... DeleteThis @-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) wrote:
> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 It doesn't need to be a long eclipse, specifically: we kn=
> >ow
> >> from the amusement park ride backstory that short periods of darkness
> >> are deeply disturbing to the Lagashians (I forget if it was Lagash or
> >> Kalgash; it changed in the novella-to-remake shift and don't ask me
> >> which way). =A0And it's just as totality is reached that the fires in
> >> the city start. =A0
>
> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 The *challenge* is explaining an eclipse big enough to co=
> >ver
> >> a wide swath of civilization while not having the second planet/moon
> >> occasionally eclipse one of the suns while the others are in the sky. =A0
> >> (I'll give as a freebie the assumption civilization happens to be on
> >> that side of the planet; a one-hemisphere inhabited world isn't by
> >> itself obviously absurd. =A0Blish used that as an important component
> >> of _Get Out Of My Sky_, although there the one-hemisphere planet is
> >> explicitly part of the backstory.) =A0
> >The idea of a one-hemisphere civilisation hadn't occurred to me.
> >I haven't read the book, but I did read the short story decades
> >ago, and had a refresher when it was read on EscapePod a
> >while back.
>
>         Asimov, rather wisely, doesn't say anything about the
> geography or the population distributions of his planet.  I'm making
> the assumption that it's a single-hemisphere civilization because it
> does appear the eclipses cause a civilization-wrecking catastrophe
> each time they happen, and no matter how big the eclipse shadow is,
> it's not more than one hemisphere wide.  

It also depends on how long the eclipse lasts - if the shadow could
cover an entire hemisphere, and it lasted long enough for every point
of the surface of the planet to spend some time in darkness (say,
14 hours for the earth), ALL civilization could fall. I think this
would
be a requirement - otherwise, there aren't vague legends, there's
history, passed on by the people who afterwards invaded the areas
that suffered darkness. 'We came in after the previous inhabitants
had a disaster (literally)'....

Making a planet that can block a sun with a visible disk,
for long enough, yet remain hidden to naked eye astronomers
seems a tough task.

Peter Trei
 >> Stay informed about: Nightfall 
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