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Since: Jan 31, 2004
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 11:11 pm
Post subject: Numbers in Tolkien
Archived from groups: rec>arts>books>tolkien (more info?)
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Following up that thread about the significance of the number nine (in
one of the Chapter of the Week discussions), I thought I'd list special
references to numbers in Tolkien's writings
If you want to test yourself, try and think of the 9 examples I found
for the use of the number '7'. Ooh, scary, seeing how significant 9 is,
that I found 9 examples of the use of 7!
So far I've got:
ONE
===
Ruling Ring (Master Ring - The One Ring)
God (Eru - Illuvatar - The One)
TWO
===
Trees of Valinor
Sun and Moon
Lamps of the Valar
Towers (!!)
[Numerous dichotomies like: Light and Dark; Good and Evil; Night and
Day; East and West; Black and White]
THREE
=====
Rings of Power for the Elven Kings
Kindreds of the Eldar
Houses of the Edain
Silmarils
FIVE
===
Istari (Wizards)
Areas of Numenor
Free Peoples (according to the Ents)
SEVEN
=====
Names of Gondolin
Gates of Gondolin
Rivers of Ossiriand
Sons of Feanor
Stars of Durin
Rings of Power for the Dwarf Lords
Fathers of the Dwarves
Hours for each Tree's cycle
Palantiri
[Seventh Level of Moria]
NINE
===
Rings of Power for Mortal Men
Ringwraiths (Nazgul - Black Riders)
Walkers (members of the Fellowship of the Ring)
Nine Valar 'of chief power and reverence'
Black cats of Queen Beruthiel
Ships of the Faithful fleeing Numenor
And sort of 'nine', we have two linked examples of the use of 39:
1) Doom fell upon Numenor on the 'nine and thirtieth day' after the
passing of the fleets of Ar-Pharazon. (Akallabeth, Silmarillion)
2) Aragorn son of Arathorn, the 'nine and thirtieth' heir in the right
line from Isildur (Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age,
Silmarillion).
Can anyone think of any other frequent uses of these or other numbers?
Christopher
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 11:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Numbers in Tolkien [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Christopher Krevzer" <spamgard@blveyonder.co.vk> wrote in
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>THREE
>=====
>Rings of Power for the Elven Kings
Cirdan, Elrond, and Galadriel weren't kings. Only Gil-galad was.
Add: three vnions of the Eldar and the Edain
>SEVEN
>=====
>NINE
>===
>Rings of Power for Mortal Men
>Ringwraiths (Nazgvl - Black Riders)
>Walkers (members of the Fellowship of the Ring)
The third of these was deliberately designed, story-internal, to
match the second.
Add: Did Minas Tirith have seven circles, or nine?
--
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 11:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Numbers in Tolkien [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message news:<QVPpc.1539$nb3.17404997@news-text.cableinet.net>...>
> Can anyone think of any other frequent uses of these or other numbers?
Well, there are seven stars on the flag of Gondor; obviously, seven
stars and one white tree on Elessar's flag; and seven "gems of
adamant" in the circlet of his crown...
mkw<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Numbers in Tolkien |
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 2:40 am
Post subject: Re: Numbers in Tolkien [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Stan Brown <the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:
> "Christopher Krevzer" <spamgard@blveyonder.co.vk> wrote in
> rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>> ONE
>> ===
Add: One White Tree (of Tvna/Eressea/Nvmenor/Gondor)
>> TWO
>> ===
[More pairs: not strictly 'two's, bvt still noteworthy]
Add: Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw
Add: Minas Anor/Tirith and Minas Ithil/Morgvl
Add: Gondor/Arnor
Add: The Argonath
Add: Narchost/Carchost
[this is silly, scrvb the pairs (far too many)]
>> THREE
>> =====
>> Rings of Power for the Elven Kings
>
> Cirdan, Elrond, and Galadriel weren't kings. Only Gil-galad was.
"Three Rings for the Elven-kings vnder the sky..."
Maybe they were Elven-kings, not kings or Elven Kings? 
> Add: three vnions of the Eldar and the Edain
Add: Hvan (the Hovnd of Valinor) spoke three times with words
Add: Three elf-towers on the Tower Hills
[Are the Tower Hills on Emyn Beraid? Silm says Elendil's people bvilt
the towers on Emyn Beraid. LotR Prologve has the Tower Hills towers made
by elves.]
>> SEVEN
>> =====
Add: Seven beacons of Gondor named by Gandalf.
Add: Seven stars brovght from Nvmenor
[This is mentioned in the verse where Gandalf describes ships (3x3) and
seven stars and seven stones. What _are_ these 'stars' thovgh??]
OMG! I jvst looked vp 'Stars' in the index to LotR, and I read a little
nvgget of information I had never read before!! It tells yov all the
'Stars of Elendil' and what they represent.
[Note to self: read the indexes to LotR and Silmarillion]
>> NINE
>> ===
>> Rings of Power for Mortal Men
>> Ringwraiths (Nazgvl - Black Riders)
>> Walkers (members of the Fellowship of the Ring)
>
> The third of these was deliberately designed, story-internal, to
> match the second.
Do yov think Savron planned his nvmber of Rings to distribvte? Were his
Nazgvl meant to be a mockery of the Aratar?
> Add: Did Minas Tirith have seven circles, or nine?
Seven walls/levels/gates/circles (like Gondolin).
Also possibly seven or nine rivers in Sovthern Gondor!
Christopher
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 2:44 am
Post subject: Re: Numbers in Tolkien [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard.RemoveThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>> NINE
Add: Nine Fingers of Frodo
Add: Nine Fingers of Sauron
Spooky connection there between Frodo and Sauron.
Christopher
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 3:03 am
Post subject: Re: Numbers in Tolkien [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>>> ONE
>>> ===
>
> Add: One White Tree (of Tuna/Eressea/Numenor/Gondor)
Beren One-hand.
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 12:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Numbers in Tolkien [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> THREE
> =====
> Kindreds of the Eldar
> Houses of the Edain
[...]
Breeds of Hobbits (Harfoots, Stoors, Fallohides)
Major races (Dwarves, Men, Elves)
> FIVE
> ===
Battle of the Five Armies
Five swift streams of Lebennin
> SEVEN
> =====
Seven Gates/Circles/Levels of Minas Tirith
"the crowns of seven kings" (when Sarumans talks to Gandalf)
Seven days of the Numenorean/Hobbit week (as opposed to the six-day-week
of the Eldar)
Seven Lords and Queens of the Valar
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 10:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Numbers in Tolkien [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Dirk Thierbach <dthierbach RemoveThis @gmx.de> wrote:
>> FIVE
>> ===
>
> Battle of the Five Armies
> Five swift streams of Lebennin
Where in the books is this from?
>> SEVEN
>> =====
>
> Seven Gates/Circles/Levels of Minas Tirith
> "the crowns of seven kings" (when Sarumans talks to Gandalf)
Um. Where is that from? Unfinished Tales? I can't find it in the Council
of Elrond scene where Gandalf reports what Saruman says. Oh. Silly me.
<turns to 'Voice of Saruman' chapter>
Aha. Yes. "the crowns of seven kings". I suppose Saruman is talking in
general here, and does not mean any specific seven kings? Or maybe he
means the crowns of the seven Valar. Now that would be boots several
sizes too big for a Maia!
> Seven days of the Numenorean/Hobbit week (as opposed to the
> six-day-week of the Eldar)
> Seven Lords and Queens of the Valar
And I've tracked down the origin of the seven stars of Durin:
"[the 7 stars of Durin] represented the Plough" ('star' index entry,
LotR)
"And high in the north as a challenge to Melkor [Varda] set the crown of
seven mighty stars to swing, Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar and sign
of doom." (Silm, 3)
"And in answer [Beren] sang a song of challenge that he had made in
praise of the Seven Stars, the Sickle of the Valar that Varda hung above
the North as a sign for the fall of Morgoth." (Silm, 19)
Christopher
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 11:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Numbers in Tolkien [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sun, 16 May 2004 20:11:28 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spamgard.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>Following up that thread about the significance of the number nine (in
>one of the Chapter of the Week discussions), I thought I'd list special
>references to numbers in Tolkien's writings
>
>If you want to test yourself, try and think of the 9 examples I found
>for the use of the number '7'. Ooh, scary, seeing how significant 9 is,
>that I found 9 examples of the use of 7!
Seven stars and seven stones (and one white tree).
Seven levels to the city of Minas Tirith.
Seven incarnations of Durin.
Seven years of excellence on Barliman's beer.
Seven Rings for the Dwarves.
That's six... <checks your list>
Only two in my list overlap yours! Looks like I get first dibs on the
beer...
Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 12:49 am
Post subject: Re: Numbers in Tolkien [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Jim Deutch <103134.3516.DeleteThis@compuserve.com> wrote:
> Seven incarnations of Durin.
> Seven years of excellence on Barliman's beer.
<snip>
> Only two in my list overlap yours! Looks like I get first dibs on the
> beer...
And you got two that hadn't been mentioned anywhere else. Very
impressive! I think 'Seven' is winning hands down as ME's 'literary'
number (though many of them originate from the seven Valar and Valier).
I haven't had a chance to look more closely at the calendars and various
time schemes, but I think that'll be a feast of numbers.
[Seven days of the week and Seven hours for each Tree - so far]
Christopher
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 2:18 am
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Four more...
THREE
=====
"seven feet forward and *three* in the air..."
(Bilbo's leap over Gollum, Riddles in the Dark, The Hobbit)
SEVEN
=====
" *seven* feet forward and three in the air..."
(Bilbo's leap over Gollum, Riddles in the Dark, The Hobbit)
"the widest was more than seven feet wide"
(Moria chasms, Bk2, Ch4, LotR)
"Tilion had traversed the heavens seven times....when the vessel of
Arien was made ready. Then Anar arose in glory, and the first dawn of
the Sun was like a great fire upon the towers of the Pelori..."
('Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor', Silmarillion)
And for those who wonder why 'The Silmarillion' sounds so poetic:
"...glory...Pelori..."
There are many other examples of such verse structure in 'The
Silmarillion', mainly examples of alliterative prose (rather than the
rhyming one above). A few sentences further on we see a triple (maybe
even quadruple) 'd' alliteration in: "Then in_d_eed Morgoth was
_d_ismayed, and he _d_escended into the uttermost _d_epths of
Angband..."
Christopher
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 11:26 am
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Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Dirk Thierbach <dthierbach.DeleteThis@gmx.de> wrote:
>> Five swift streams of Lebennin
> Where in the books is this from?
It's IIRC only used once, in book 5/chapter 1. But it stuck in my
mind because it looks a bit like a parallel to Ossiriand.
> Aha. Yes. "the crowns of seven kings". I suppose Saruman is talking in
> general here, and does not mean any specific seven kings?
I have no idea. I never figured this reference out.
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 12:15 pm
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Dirk Thierbach wrote:
>
> Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > THREE
> > =====
> > Kindreds of the Eldar
> > Houses of the Edain
> [...]
>
> Breeds of Hobbits (Harfoots, Stoors, Fallohides)
> Major races (Dwarves, Men, Elves)
>
Towers of Thangorodrim.
Weren't there five great battles in the wars against Morgoth in Beleriand?
--
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 1:34 pm
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"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard.RemoveThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Zy8qc.2499$Sb6.25967788@news-text.cableinet.net
> Dirk Thierbach <dthierbach.RemoveThis@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>>> FIVE
>>> ===
>>
>> Battle of the Five Armies
>> Five swift streams of Lebennin
>
> Where in the books is this from?
Lebennin means the Land of Five Rivers. (leben (five) + nīn (pl. of "nen" -
lesser river). ) They are the Anduin, Celos, Sirith, Sernui and Gilrain.
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 12:04 am
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Odysseus <odysseus1479-at.RemoveThis@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:
>> Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard.RemoveThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> THREE
>>> =====
Earendil had three companions.
> Weren't there five great battles in the wars against Morgoth in
> Beleriand?
Of course!
And from one of those songs of Rohan:
"Five nights and days,
East and onwards rode the Eorlingas"
And the burial mounds at Edoras:
"Seven mounds upon the left, and nine upon the right."
Christopher
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