will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently?

"Brian Doyle" <No_spam.DeleteThis@freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:d2ukq2$f94$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
 > Justin Samuels wrote:
  >> Does anyone here think that the Phoenix force will be killed
  >> permanently?
 >
 > No, as it sort of defeats the point of it being the _Phoenix_ Force
 > otherwise. It's also been likened to one of the Galactic Entities like
 > Galactus, the Celestials and the life,

That, and it's too much of a money making vehicle. Marvel would be stupid to
kill of Phoenix. Just have it appear less often, and let other teams besides
the X-Men encounter it from time to time.

I do think Marvel should break off the Phoenix-Jean connection, and move on
to someone else. Jean being revived time and again has reached the point of
being cliche. Reviving the Phoenix is understandable.

Dave<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

David Henry wrote:
 > "Brian Doyle" <No_spam DeleteThis @freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
 > news:d2ukq2$f94$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
 >
  >>Justin Samuels wrote:
  >>
   >>>Does anyone here think that the Phoenix force will be killed
   >>>permanently?
  >>
  >>No, as it sort of defeats the point of it being the _Phoenix_ Force
  >>otherwise. It's also been likened to one of the Galactic Entities like
  >>Galactus, the Celestials and the life,
 >
 >
 > That, and it's too much of a money making vehicle. Marvel would be stupid to
 > kill of Phoenix. Just have it appear less often, and let other teams besides
 > the X-Men encounter it from time to time.
 >
 > I do think Marvel should break off the Phoenix-Jean connection, and move on
 > to someone else. Jean being revived time and again has reached the point of
 > being cliche. Reviving the Phoenix is understandable.
 >
 > Dave
 >
 >
Except the entire reason Jean was made into the Phoenix was because the
movie universe decided to make her Phoenix.

So no, Marvel will not be moving Phoenix to someone else. Back away
from things, and think of things like this.

Because movie Rogue can only absorb people, Rogue lost her other powers.
Because movie Spider Man made organic webs, comic book Spider Man
started making organic webs.

The comic book stuff about the Phoenix is way too complicated for movies
audiences. There will be no Phoenix entity in the movie. They've
already given evolution for the explanation of the massive rise in her
powers.

So again, I'll ask, do you think the comics will take a similiar route?
Marvel could indeed kill off the Phoenix force. We didn't see it at
all after it's conciousness seperated itself from Rachel. Effectively,
they killed it off. We were left with a Jean Grey who was merely code
named Phoenix (though she did start to wear the costume, display
increased powers and make the effect, it was still Jean). The only
reason why we saw the Phoenix force again was because the movie made
Jean Phoenix, and Morrison apparently didn't feel like undertaking a
major retcon. So all comic book and other media versions of Jean had to
become Phoenix too.

Ultimate power objects that jump around kind of lose steam. Notice
Marvel doesn't use the cosmic cubes anymore. The soulsword doesn't make
an appearance, even when we see Amanda Sefton aka Magik, mistress of
Limbo. The Infinity Gems are basically gone (warlock still has the soul
gem). The Avengers and FF offices have never shown any interest in the
Phoenix.

So it appears cosmic power objects and plot devices don't sell well long
term.

Recall Pak advertised this series as the last Phoenix (Phoenix force)
story. As it should be. The X-Men can't beat the entity unless you
come up with a contrived plotline to weaken it (like the Shi'ar). The
thing is, the entity is supposed to burn away what doesn't work. By
it's very nature, it is destructive.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

"Justin Samuels" <viaong1 RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:53B4e.29411$f%4.18895@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
  > >
  > >
 > Except the entire reason Jean was made into the Phoenix was because the
 > movie universe decided to make her Phoenix.

Eh? Claremont first hinted at the retcon of the awful X-Factor retcon in his
run around the time of the first movie. I don't think it had anything to do
with the film universe, simply Claremont undoing subtly the mess that had
been made of his greatest story. When he wrote the original Phoenix stories,
Jean was Phoenix, then came the stupid retcon to bring Jean back, but Chris
has been picking at that as far back as his Classic X-Men back-ups. All
Grant did was make explicit what Claremont was hinting at, Jean is Phoenix.
It's not a full retcon because nobody's rewritten the X-Factor explanation,
everyone's just pretending it no longer exists

D.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

Donnacha DeLong wrote:
 > "Justin Samuels" <viaong1.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
 > news:53B4e.29411$f%4.18895@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
   >>>
   >>>
  >> Except the entire reason Jean was made into the Phoenix was because
  >> the movie universe decided to make her Phoenix.
 >
 > Eh? Claremont first hinted at the retcon of the awful X-Factor retcon
 > in his run around the time of the first movie. I don't think it had
 > anything to do with the film universe, simply Claremont undoing
 > subtly the mess that had been made of his greatest story. When he
 > wrote the original Phoenix stories, Jean was Phoenix, then came the
 > stupid retcon to bring Jean back, but Chris has been picking at that
 > as far back as his Classic X-Men back-ups. All Grant did was make
 > explicit what Claremont was hinting at, Jean is Phoenix. It's not a
 > full retcon because nobody's rewritten the X-Factor explanation,
 > everyone's just pretending it no longer exists

Which one was that, and you're sonmewhat overlooking the whole Claremont
concieved and written Rachel as Phoenix thing...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

 > So again, I'll ask, do you think the comics will take a similiar route?
 > Marvel could indeed kill off the Phoenix force. We didn't see it at
 > all after it's conciousness seperated itself from Rachel. Effectively,
 > they killed it off. We were left with a Jean Grey who was merely code
 > named Phoenix (though she did start to wear the costume, display
 > increased powers and make the effect, it was still Jean). The only
 > reason why we saw the Phoenix force again was because the movie made
 > Jean Phoenix, and Morrison apparently didn't feel like undertaking a
 > major retcon. So all comic book and other media versions of Jean had to
 > become Phoenix too.


I think this is a pretty fair thesis. Why bother with the whole M'krann
crystal and the Shi'ar. Alien societies in comics are largely allegories of
our own and never really sit right with me. Lets cut this from the comics
too ;o

But, the movie Rogue should get some stolen powers.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

Brian Doyle wrote:
 > Donnacha DeLong wrote:
 >
  >>"Justin Samuels" <viaong1 RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
  >>news:53B4e.29411$f%4.18895@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
  >>
   >>>>
   >>>Except the entire reason Jean was made into the Phoenix was because
   >>>the movie universe decided to make her Phoenix.
  >>
  >>Eh? Claremont first hinted at the retcon of the awful X-Factor retcon
  >>in his run around the time of the first movie. I don't think it had
  >>anything to do with the film universe, simply Claremont undoing
  >>subtly the mess that had been made of his greatest story. When he
  >>wrote the original Phoenix stories, Jean was Phoenix, then came the
  >>stupid retcon to bring Jean back, but Chris has been picking at that
  >>as far back as his Classic X-Men back-ups. All Grant did was make
  >>explicit what Claremont was hinting at, Jean is Phoenix. It's not a
  >>full retcon because nobody's rewritten the X-Factor explanation,
  >>everyone's just pretending it no longer exists
 >
 >
 > Which one was that, and you're sonmewhat overlooking the whole Claremont
 > concieved and written Rachel as Phoenix thing...
 >
 >
Rachel was Phoenix because her mother was Phoenix/Jean Grey. So that
goes along with what Donnacha said.

Kids often inherit traits or abilities similiar to their parents.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 07:58:28 -0500, Justin Samuels
<viaong1.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> wrote:

 >Brian Doyle wrote:
  >> Donnacha DeLong wrote:
  >>
   >>>"Justin Samuels" <viaong1.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
   >>>news:53B4e.29411$f%4.18895@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
   >>>
   >>>>>
   >>>>Except the entire reason Jean was made into the Phoenix was because
   >>>>the movie universe decided to make her Phoenix.
   >>>
   >>>Eh? Claremont first hinted at the retcon of the awful X-Factor retcon
   >>>in his run around the time of the first movie. I don't think it had
   >>>anything to do with the film universe, simply Claremont undoing
   >>>subtly the mess that had been made of his greatest story. When he
   >>>wrote the original Phoenix stories, Jean was Phoenix, then came the
   >>>stupid retcon to bring Jean back, but Chris has been picking at that
   >>>as far back as his Classic X-Men back-ups. All Grant did was make
   >>>explicit what Claremont was hinting at, Jean is Phoenix. It's not a
   >>>full retcon because nobody's rewritten the X-Factor explanation,
   >>>everyone's just pretending it no longer exists
  >>
  >>
  >> Which one was that, and you're sonmewhat overlooking the whole Claremont
  >> concieved and written Rachel as Phoenix thing...
  >>
  >>
 >Rachel was Phoenix because her mother was Phoenix/Jean Grey. So that
 >goes along with what Donnacha said.
 >
 >Kids often inherit traits or abilities similiar to their parents.

But acquired traits aren't inherited.

--
Lilith<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

Lilith wrote:

 > On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 07:58:28 -0500, Justin Samuels
 > <viaong1.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote:
 >
 >
  >>Brian Doyle wrote:
  >>
   >>>Donnacha DeLong wrote:
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>>"Justin Samuels" <viaong1.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
   >>>>news:53B4e.29411$f%4.18895@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>>Except the entire reason Jean was made into the Phoenix was because
   >>>>>the movie universe decided to make her Phoenix.
   >>>>
   >>>>Eh? Claremont first hinted at the retcon of the awful X-Factor retcon
   >>>>in his run around the time of the first movie. I don't think it had
   >>>>anything to do with the film universe, simply Claremont undoing
   >>>>subtly the mess that had been made of his greatest story. When he
   >>>>wrote the original Phoenix stories, Jean was Phoenix, then came the
   >>>>stupid retcon to bring Jean back, but Chris has been picking at that
   >>>>as far back as his Classic X-Men back-ups. All Grant did was make
   >>>>explicit what Claremont was hinting at, Jean is Phoenix. It's not a
   >>>>full retcon because nobody's rewritten the X-Factor explanation,
   >>>>everyone's just pretending it no longer exists
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>Which one was that, and you're sonmewhat overlooking the whole Claremont
   >>>concieved and written Rachel as Phoenix thing...
   >>>
   >>>
  >>
  >>Rachel was Phoenix because her mother was Phoenix/Jean Grey. So that
  >>goes along with what Donnacha said.
  >>
  >>Kids often inherit traits or abilities similiar to their parents.
 >
 >
 > But acquired traits aren't inherited.
 >
Rachel didn't acquire her Phoenix powers. She has them because her
mother is Jean Grey. That's at least, according to Claremont's orginal
intention. Rachel first tapped into her Phoenix power when she
physically moved herself back in time. The Beyonder sensed her cosmic
abilities, which weren't fully out till she took the codename Phoenix.

Again, that goes along with what Donnacha said. Some of you just like
to argue.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

Justin Samuels wrote:
 > Lilith wrote:
 >
   >>>
   >>> Rachel was Phoenix because her mother was Phoenix/Jean Grey. So
   >>> that goes along with what Donnacha said.
   >>>
   >>> Kids often inherit traits or abilities similiar to their parents.
  >>
  >>
  >> But acquired traits aren't inherited.
  >>
 > Rachel didn't acquire her Phoenix powers. She has them because her
 > mother is Jean Grey. That's at least, according to Claremont's
 > orginal intention. Rachel first tapped into her Phoenix power when
 > she physically moved herself back in time.

She first made contact with the Phoenix when she acquired the holemapthic
matrix crystal in X-Men 199. We found out that the time travel wasn't the
Phoenix, that was Rachel's own mutant power.

 > Again, that goes along with what Donnacha said. Some of you just like
 > to argue.

Of course we do, hence; Usenet....<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

Brian Doyle wrote:
 > Justin Samuels wrote:
 >
  >>Lilith wrote:
  >>
  >>
   >>>>Rachel was Phoenix because her mother was Phoenix/Jean Grey. So
   >>>>that goes along with what Donnacha said.
   >>>>
   >>>>Kids often inherit traits or abilities similiar to their parents.
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>But acquired traits aren't inherited.
   >>>
  >>
  >>Rachel didn't acquire her Phoenix powers. She has them because her
  >>mother is Jean Grey. That's at least, according to Claremont's
  >>orginal intention. Rachel first tapped into her Phoenix power when
  >>she physically moved herself back in time.
 >
 >
 > She first made contact with the Phoenix when she acquired the holemapthic
 > matrix crystal in X-Men 199. We found out that the time travel wasn't the
 > Phoenix, that was Rachel's own mutant power.

But you guys get too far off the original discussion, and then it
becomes nonsense. Stick to the original point.
 >
 >
  >>Again, that goes along with what Donnacha said. Some of you just like
  >>to argue.
 >
 >
 > Of course we do, hence; Usenet....
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

This is way off my original post.

The post was do you think the Phoenix force will be killed off permanently?

I gave my reasons why I think so. When people go way off subject, it
seems like they can't articulate teir powers. I really don't see what
homeopathic crystals have to do with my question?
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

"Donnacha DeLong" <donnacha.TakeThisOut@NOSPAMsortedmagazine.com> wrote in message
news:42531abe_4@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
 >
 > "Justin Samuels" <viaong1.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
 > news:53B4e.29411$f%4.18895@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
   > > >
   > > >
  > > Except the entire reason Jean was made into the Phoenix was because the
  > > movie universe decided to make her Phoenix.
 >
 > Eh? Claremont first hinted at the retcon of the awful X-Factor retcon in
his
 > run around the time of the first movie. I don't think it had anything to
do
 > with the film universe, simply Claremont undoing subtly the mess that had
 > been made of his greatest story. When he wrote the original Phoenix
stories,
 > Jean was Phoenix, then came the stupid retcon to bring Jean back, but
Chris
 > has been picking at that as far back as his Classic X-Men back-ups. All
 > Grant did was make explicit what Claremont was hinting at, Jean is
Phoenix.
 > It's not a full retcon because nobody's rewritten the X-Factor
explanation,
 > everyone's just pretending it no longer exists
 >
 >


actually, it first came up before Claremont returned to the books in 2000.
during the Kelly/Seagle run, they made kind of a big deal about Jean
starting to manifest the Phoenix again, but after taking pains to build it
up and point it out, it was immedately dropped until Claremont picked it
back up about halfway through his return run.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

Aaron Forever wrote:

 > "Donnacha DeLong" <donnacha DeleteThis @NOSPAMsortedmagazine.com> wrote in message
 > news:42531abe_4@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
 >
  >>"Justin Samuels" <viaong1 DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
  >>news:53B4e.29411$f%4.18895@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
  >>
   >>>>
   >>>Except the entire reason Jean was made into the Phoenix was because the
   >>>movie universe decided to make her Phoenix.
  >>
  >>Eh? Claremont first hinted at the retcon of the awful X-Factor retcon in
 >
 > his
 >
  >>run around the time of the first movie. I don't think it had anything to
 >
 > do
 >
  >>with the film universe, simply Claremont undoing subtly the mess that had
  >>been made of his greatest story. When he wrote the original Phoenix
 >
 > stories,
 >
  >>Jean was Phoenix, then came the stupid retcon to bring Jean back, but
 >
 > Chris
 >
  >>has been picking at that as far back as his Classic X-Men back-ups. All
  >>Grant did was make explicit what Claremont was hinting at, Jean is
 >
 > Phoenix.
 >
  >>It's not a full retcon because nobody's rewritten the X-Factor
 >
 > explanation,
 >
  >>everyone's just pretending it no longer exists
  >>
  >>
 >
 >
 >
 > actually, it first came up before Claremont returned to the books in 2000.
 > during the Kelly/Seagle run, they made kind of a big deal about Jean
 > starting to manifest the Phoenix again, but after taking pains to build it
 > up and point it out, it was immedately dropped until Claremont picked it
 > back up about halfway through his return run.
 >
 >
We didn't know whether Jean manifested the Phoenix under Seagle or
Claremont. She was dressed in the Phoenix costume, manifesting Phoenix
effects, etc.

But there was no actual evidence of the force itself. Certainly, not a
force that had it's own personality like in Excalibur 52-64, or in the
Phoenix Endsong.

My question is would the Endsong permanently kill of the force, leaving
us with a Phoenix/Jean that dresses as Phoenix, displays high range
powers, and effect, but has no alien force?

Her movie version evolved into Phoenix, and this fits the original
explanation of Jean becoming Phoenix in UXM 101-137. When there was no
Phoenix entity. In X-Men 3, they're continuing with the theme of
Phoenix/Jean evolving.

I gave all the examples of how movie universe continuity has effected
both the X-Men and Spider Man.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently?